Engaging in wild fantasies....

[Gooserider]

The GF is getting extremely close to paying off the mortgage on the house we live in, and we are starting to think about engaging in some serious repairs and upgrading - it is a beautiful place but not very practical, and I've been busy fantasizing about ways to make the place more liveable, including some serious upgrades on the heating systems... I want to run my fantasy ideas past folks, see if you think it would be doable, affordable, and if it would work from a functional standpoint....

Background....

Currently we have NG forced hot air and AC, with a fairly new high efficiency furnace and AC, but the original duct work which doesn't seem terribly efficient. The furnace will keep the house nice and warm, if we shovel enough money into the gas company's pocket, but... We also use NG for coooking and hot water. Rather than feeding the gas company, I keep the gas thermostat turned down to about 66*F and shovel wood into the VC wood stove, probably about 4-5 cords per season. Mostly this keeps the furnace off down to outside temps around 25*F, and helps the rest of the time, but does not come close to my idea of keeping the furnace off completely... Most of the time the house temp is between 66 and 70*, hardly ideal comfortwise. Obviously it also doesn't do anything for the hot water either.

We do have this big expanse of 12/12 pitch, south facing roof, very roughly 45' x 25', that seems to be screaming for some sort of solar useage. I don't think the return on solar electric is good enough to justify it yet, but solar heating may be another story, especially since we have an in-ground pool that could use a lot of the summer output of a hot water panel setup.

We have a full basement that is mostly finished, but really isn't useable because it is so cold down there. The walls are insulated, I believe w/ studs and fiberglass, w/ wood board panelling over that, but the floor is only covered by an elderly pile indoor / outdoor type carpet over the concrete. It has a pre-EPA stove setup in one corner, but because I don't want to haul the wood up the seven or eight steps into the house and then down the 10 or 12 steps into the basement, we almost never use it.

Right outside our kitchen, only a few steps from the wood shed, we have a porch about 15' x 20' which we never used that has collapsed and needs to be replaced with something, possibly increasing the size of the south facing roof area (though it wouldn't be at as ideal a pitch)

So much for background - Now for the fantasy stuff...

1. Pull up the carpetting and rip down the sheet rock ceiling in the basement - (not sure about the walls), put radiant tubing between the 1st floor joists insulate and put up a suspended ceiling; and lay down a more insulated floor with radiant tubing in it.

2. Tear out the collapsed porch, and bump out the basement and first floor to give a bigger kitchen area - the basement area could be used as a utility space with a hot water thermal storage tank, and all the pumps and other plumbing that goes with the radiant heating, etc.

3. In the bumpout, incorporate a wood elevator / pass-through setup to take wood in at ground level (approx half way between basement floor and first floor) and go down to basement or up to first floor.

4. Put a large solar hot water panel array on the roof, use it to feed the radiant heating, DHW and swimming pool, (plus the GF wants a hot tub), with excess going into the storage tank.

5. Replace the stove with a gassification boiler that can supplement the solar stuff when the sun just isn't enough....

6. Leave the existing HVAC system in place, possibly with duct updates where easy, in order to provide summer cooling and fallback vacation heating (not to mention keeping us on the cheaper "heats with gas" price schedule :coolsmirk: )

A lot of this might be discussed better in the DIY area, but one of the big question marks in my mind is step 5 - the gasification boiler... Everything else I know would be possible, at least if I threw enough money at it :lol: but I'm not sure just what is out there for boiler options, and if there is anything made that would fit where I need it to go....

I don't see any place that I could put a boiler other than in the place where the current stove sits. This is currently a visual beauty spot in the basement, so I'd give bonus points for something that didn't look TOO "industrial" but that may be a problem given the required plumbing, etc. that goes with a boiler. If I had to I could probably come up with some sort of wall around the unit, but wouldn't want that to be overly big....

This is MA, and as such my understanding is that our state building codes require any boiler in a house be ASTME approved, TUV or other certifications need not apply >:-(

The big issue would be the size... The current stove location is one corner of the basement that has been covered in bricks across a diagonal, with the back of the corner sliced off to contain the chimney. This corner has brick walls about 5' long on each side, with a 25" wide diagonal across the intersection. In the base of the diagonal is a cleanout opening for the chimney, approx 8-3/4" wide, 9.5" tall, which would need to be accessed occasionally. About 5' 8" up from the floor level there is a 6" thimble leading into an 8" square flue, clay tile lined in good shape, but w/o a liner. The chimney is probably about 30-35' tall, so draft shouldn't be an issue... The floor of the area is brick about 4" above the rest of the present floor, and there is a copper ceiling dropped about 5.5" below the main ceiling level. The brick area is about 40" deep to the back of the diagonal section, tapering on each side... I've attached a couple of my initial CAD drawings to show the area (Part of this is teaching myself CAD, eventually I'll have the whole house done!)

IMHO I need a fairly small unit, as I don't see the need for a huge BTU rating since it would mostly be supplemental to charge what the solar didn't get... I currently have lots of wood cut to 18" +/- 2" for my VC, so I'd like the same wood length spec.

So - smallish, preferably not overly industrial looking, 20" wood length, ASME certifiable, preferably low maintenance, not sure what else I should look for...

 

[EnCalientesAqua]

I think this post is properly placed. Posts on infrastructure layout and experience in boiler operation and practical matters really do belong in here.

Although I don't know all of the specifics of your home its layout and current HVAC design I will offer some thoughts.

1. I wouldn't like any boiler I have seen, installed, or operated in a place where a typical stove had been. This is underscored by the fact that your trying to improve and expand the living space. They make noise. They can emit smoke. It is an opinion, but I like my boilers in a boiler room, same with the pipes, pumps, batteries, and electronics.

2. Could you make use of a water to air HX in your duct work? You could save some very serious money by not having to rip everything out for floor pex.
The air HX can temporarily or permanently supply warm air through ducts while your reworking the living space.
I dislike using air handlers, but it might be most cost effective in your case.

3. Could you place the boiler outside? Reuse VC pipe in a nice shed? Or, keep the VC and completely finish the basement.
I put mine in a shed, ran 2 inch pex to a location where I could make use of indoor storage (non living space, for pump, and backup electronics). Maybe you could do something similar.
I mention this because the boiler outdoors can eliminate the firewood elevator.

4. For me my project took a long time to complete. If your doing home renovation as well you may want to determine a time line and resources alloted, because it took me more than 2 years.
I did it in stages. I added pex runs to 9 locations from 2 manifold (one freeze proof and one indoor) and worked in the most practical functionality first. I have still yet to complete a floor heat system under my office, and no wood heat in my hot tub yet. But, I saved a ton of money as soon as I got the first air handler HX installed.




I don't know the yield on solar vac tubes in maine, or even your lat, but they work well even in winter in IN.

 

[Gooserider]

I think this post is properly placed. Posts on infrastructure layout and experience in boiler operation and practical matters really do belong in here.

Although I don't know all of the specifics of your home its layout and current HVAC design I will offer some thoughts.

1. I wouldn't like any boiler I have seen, installed, or operated in a place where a typical stove had been. This is underscored by the fact that your trying to improve and expand the living space. They make noise. They can emit smoke. It is an opinion, but I like my boilers in a boiler room, same with the pipes, pumps, batteries, and electronics.

The home is a contemporary, and the existing dual flue chimney is really the ONLY place to get up and out with smoke... The other option would be to try and use the stack that the original furnace used, but that would probably need replacing (I think it's gas heat chimney, and would need to be upgraded to class A) and might not be tall enough - it would also need some serious re-arranging to get it into the space, as it is now occupied by the existing furnace setup, hot water heater, and assorted other plumbing... The upside of that would be that it is a utility room, but downside is that its on the north side of the house, so it would be more of a challenge to do the plumbing, but it could be handled if I had to...

2. Could you make use of a water to air HX in your duct work? You could save some very serious money by not having to rip everything out for floor pex.
The air HX can temporarily or permanently supply warm air through ducts while your reworking the living space.
I dislike using air handlers, but it might be most cost effective in your case.

Probably yes, but the ductwork did a poor job of heating the basement, and isn't that great for the rest of the house... The stuff I've read says radiant is the best way to go if doing solar, and I figure it would be worth it for improving the heat situtation in general... But the air handler thing might work as a short term fix while doing the pex in the rest of the house...

3. Could you place the boiler outside? Reuse VC pipe in a nice shed? Or, keep the VC and completely finish the basement.
I put mine in a shed, ran 2 inch pex to a location where I could make use of indoor storage (non living space, for pump, and backup electronics). Maybe you could do something similar.
I mention this because the boiler outdoors can eliminate the firewood elevator.

The VC is on the first floor, it is an older pre-EPA smoke dragon in the basement I'd be replacing with the boiler (if I went that route). I'm not thrilled with the VC as a primary heat source, but it's good for ambiance, and I could use it for occasional local heating in really cold weather... I'd want some sort of wood elevator or equivalent just to make it easier to get the wood to both places, as it is currently a pain dragging my wood cart in through the garage and up the stairs... I also suspect that there may be code / government permit issues in doing an "outdoor boiler" that I'd avoid by keeping the thing in the house...

4. For me my project took a long time to complete. If your doing home renovation as well you may want to determine a time line and resources alloted, because it took me more than 2 years.
I did it in stages. I added pex runs to 9 locations from 2 manifold (one freeze proof and one indoor) and worked in the most practical functionality first. I have still yet to complete a floor heat system under my office, and no wood heat in my hot tub yet. But, I saved a ton of money as soon as I got the first air handler HX installed.

I agree, and a lot of what I'm thinking in terms of would need to be staged, especially since we want to avoid borrowing if at all possible - rough estimate is that paying off the mortgage will free about 1K / month to go into the house improvement fund....

I don't know the yield on solar vac tubes in maine, or even your lat, but they work well even in winter in IN.

I am in MAss, not MainE, (lattitude about 42* IIRC) but either way, I am not very sold on the vac tube collectors, I was thinking much more in terms of some flavor of flat plate units.... Seems from everything I've read that the vac units offer only marginally better efficiency under certain conditions, and lose out at other times, while costing a lot more and offering more headaches otherwise...

Gooserider

 

[Nofossil]

Fantasy designs are fun......

I'll second the comment about not putting a boiler in living space. The fan noise is quite acceptable for something that's in a separate room, but not in living space IMHO. I don't have much of an issue with smoke, but it does happen once in a while. Ashes and wood litter are much more an issue, and another reason to have a dedicated space. It would be well worth some deep thought about how to get a location that's convenient for daily operation without being obtrusive. Ideal location should be convenient for access from the living space - tending in a bathrobe during commercials is nice. Should also minimize wood handling, while keeping smoke / wood litter / ashes / noise out of the living space.

I'm a big fan of cheapest possible solar hot water panels, but mostly for DHW during seasons when you wouldn't want to fire up the boiler. In New England, the correct angle for summer operation is pretty near flat, and WAY below the angle that would shed snow. Solar panels have a pretty pathetic heat output compared to a boiler. I have three glazed copper plat collectors with an 80 square foot solar pool heater for preheat. On a good summer day I can get 100,000 BTU delivered into storage. That's for the whole day. Winter sun angles are MUCH worse, and here in New England the sun doesn't shine much in the winter anyway. Add the costs to deal with freezing, and it's just not worth it in my opinion.

Passive solar is great, though. We don't need any heat at all if it's above about 10 degrees and the sun is shining. I've seen solar hot air panels installed on south facing walls that do a really good job and don't have any of the control, plumbing, or freezing issues that water panels have.

 

[pybyr]

your 15x20 bump-out of the basement to put a full cellar under what is not the collapsed porch could provide a boiler room-

15x20 should leave room not only for storage, but also for the boiler, if it is all designed and installed correctly.

Then use a manufactured chimney right up and out through the new finished space above. This new "annex" of the cellar can keep the boiler in its own distinct space. Keep the woodstove as is, where is, for ambiance when desired.

 

[steam man]

I hate to even give the perception I am disagreeing with nofossil on the solar point...(take a deep breath mike).......but I have a few thoughts on your upgrades. If your mortagage is about to be paid off I assume you must be 45-60yo maybe. Anyway I have seen enough people that as they get older the last thing they can do is handle many cords of wood a year and eventually give up on it. I think handling wood gets old when getting into February though I do like my fires. Given your south facing roof I think it sounds ideal for a solar thermal setup, large enough for some space heating given you have a pool heat in the summer. At least you could get a good solar survey done to see what the possible solar potential really is. Combine this with dramatic energy improvements, insulation, radiant floor heating, etc...and updated heat loss calc. Max out your tax credits. The plumbing and freezing issues are pretty much non-issues with a properly designed system. At that point you could assess the possiblity of a gassifier set up for the days when it is below 25 deg to minimize wood use.

Mike

 

[leaddog]

I'm not a fan of a boiler in the house for several reasons. dirt, ash dust, bugs, smoke, and fire danger. To me the ideal set up would be to put a 20ft shipping container close to the house and put the storage in the house. The shipping containers are cheap, movable, fireproof, have space for the boiler and wood storage and can be sided to go with most any yard. with the storage in the house you will have any heat loss going to the house, plus you will only have heat loss in the underground piping when the boiler is running not all the time.
Yes it isn't as handy to have to go out side but that will only be a couple times a day and when you want as the storage will give you fexability on when to fill the boiler. Your wood would be inside and handy and it would be handy when you stack it. Depending on your codes it might even be easier to comply and the insurance co's like it better also.
As for radiant in the basement I'm no expert but wonder if you put it in the ceiling it might heat the basement and the upper floor.
leaddog

 

[EnCalientesAqua]

excuse the MA vs ME mix up. I laughed out loud, because I remember thinking as posting I shouldn't be posting this after spending all day at a SuperB party -- I should wait.

One member here, Solarguy, has a lat of 40. he lives in Indy. He has several write ups on his setup with pics. He uses a vac solar and an EKO. He has accidentally boiled off all of his water at 0F. He really could add to this discussion.
I like wood because I can match my fires to demand.

I think that 2 things are required before you can go much further 1 heat calc 2 boiler placement

 

[DaveBP]

If you're reconciled to living in a demo zone for a while and especially if you plan on doing as much of the labor yourself as you can, try to take the opportunity to increase your insulation and reduce air infiltration everywhere you can. The investment will repay you every winter of the rest of your life, no matter what you heat with.

Normal building practice in New England is pretty piss poor to this day. The main response I've seen to the recent fuel price panic is to tack on some foam under vinyl siding. Lowering a house's heatload can be very labor intensive on an existing house and very disruptive to the occupants But if you can improve your heating load you will appreciate it every year.

Then there is the question of improving the heating system....

I'm with Nofossil ( as usual but not always ) on solar hydronics in the winter. You get way out on the diminishing returns high-dive board trying to squeeze heat out of our soggy winter sky. It can be done and there are lots of wonderful examples but the BTUs/dollar ratio goes down way fast. Look at a most attractive-to-you system and rough-in the plumbing to the roof while things are all apart in case you win a lottery later on.

There are professional consultants out there that can advise homeowners on various ways to do all this stuff and at what budget levels. I have no idea what they charge but sometimes those guys help a lot to hack through all the bewildering options. Compared to the total cost of a project like this it may not be so much money.

 

[Nofossil]

I hate to even give the perception I am disagreeing with nofossil on the solar point...(take a deep breath mike).......but I have a few thoughts on your upgrades. If your mortagage is about to be paid off I assume you must be 45-60yo maybe. Anyway I have seen enough people that as they get older the last thing they can do is handle many cords of wood a year and eventually give up on it. I think handling wood gets old when getting into February though I do like my fires. Given your south facing roof I think it sounds ideal for a solar thermal setup, large enough for some space heating given you have a pool heat in the summer. At least you could get a good solar survey done to see what the possible solar potential really is. Combine this with dramatic energy improvements, insulation, radiant floor heating, etc...and updated heat loss calc. Max out your tax credits. The plumbing and freezing issues are pretty much non-issues with a properly designed system. At that point you could assess the possiblity of a gassifier set up for the days when it is below 25 deg to minimize wood use.

Mike

I'm happy to have people disagree with me - gives me a chance to discover if I'm wrong - a theoretical possibility, at least ;-)

I've run numbers on various approaches to energy sources. Tax credits and subsidies muddy the waters a bit, and I have a moral issue with appointing the government to take other people's money and give it to me to do something that doesn't make enough financial sense for me to do it on my own....

That aside, the only solar approaches that I've seen that look good on a cost per delivered BTU basis in a New England climate are:

1) Solar hot water systems using glazed flat plate collectors.

2) Solar hot air panels integrated into the building structure.

3) Passive solar designs, including glazed sun spaces.

People are endlessly creative, so I'm hoping that other financially attractive options become available. I'd be very interested to learn more about what's out there.

For those of us who heat with wood during the winter, our cost per additional BTU in wintertime is pretty darned low - tough for a solar panel to compete.

 

[steam man]

Whew! I thought I was going to get black balled from the site. ...LOL

Certainly solar can be very expensive but sometimes I think for the work wood takes it can be very expensive. Its definately a lifestyle. My only thought is to get to a point where only the 3 months of winter will require alternate/supplement heat. Everyday this month I pretty much make some if not all of my DHW and maybe some extra if I had that part ready to go. Not enough yet to be worth much. I think maxing out solar potential should be #1 priority and then supplement the rest. Doing your own work obviously saves a lot of money. I figure the tax rebate for solar allows me to keep my money. It makes perfect financial sense to me.

Mike

 

[Redox]

Goose, it sounds like you are about where I am in the home design situation: gas FHA and a cold basement and wondering which direction to go. I also have a huge roof facing due south that's also screaming out ( heard it again yesterday) for a bank of collectors. The biggest problem is that the one stove is doing such a good job at covering 80% of my needs that it's hard to justify any more large expenditures. But we can dream, can't we?

I happen to like the idea of a gassifier next to my entertainment center, but I think my wife may have an issue with it. Hauling the wood down to the basement would be a PITA, even with an open window to throw it into. The back porch might be a consideration, but it would be nice to use it as a porch, instead of an annex to the garage/basement/attic collection we have. The garage is already too small and under the deck or in a shed has other logistical problems. I do think it really ought to be outside for maximum W/GFAF.

I plan on putting radiant in the FR slab when it gets finished off as well as possibly in the basement work space. I think I will hook this up to a NG water heater for the few times that I would want to run it. Then, I will consider adding a few flat plate collectors on the roof and see how they do. By this time, I will have something of a hydronic system in the house and the boiler won't be too much of a stretch. Then the total conversion to wood heat will be relatively easy. That's the plan, anyhow. Don't tell my wife! ;-)

Take each little project and adapt it to the final big picture. I think nofo is right, once you have cheap wood heat, the solar would just become a novelty.

Chris

 

[Gooserider]

Wow, thanks for all the great responses...

First off, I agree that it isn't really optimal to want to put the boiler in the basement living space, but it's going to be HARD to put it anywheres else... This house is beautiful, everyone that walks in raves about it, but it is also the house from hell to work on... It is a "contemporary" - meaning not the standard cape or other semi-cubical design, so a lot of the standard approaches don't work... It is a kind of "A-frame" design, sort of like a ski chalet, with a 12/12 pitch roof, and NONE of the walls line up... We have FIVE different attic spaces, when I did a network wiring job on the house a few years back, I had to pull wire through four of them...

As best I was able to tell doing that job, there are exactly TWO places where there is something resembling a straight shot from the basement to the roof. One is the existing chimney, the other was the stack used by the old HVAC furnace and the hot water heater.

I've attached a couple of pix that show the outside. The one with the three windows is looking at the West end of the house, with the existing chimney. As a scale, a standard 36' extension ladder (32' working length) won't quite reach the chimney where it meets the roof... The three windows are all one room, the living room is 24 feet floor to the peak of the roof (when our ceiling fan died, I had to rent and erect an 18' scaffolding tower in the living room to replace it!)

The lower section in the middle is the laundry room, which connects to the garage, who's roof is east / west facing.

The second picture shows the collapsed porch, on the other side of the laundry room. The bay window is the kitchen / dining area, and also needs replacing - the only reason it doesn't leak is because I've been really generous with the calking gun... The red door goes into the laundry room, and the bulkhead goes into a room in the basement on the opposit end of the house from the chimney.

In terms of layout... The house is best described as having three roughly equal sections on the first floor, with some appendages hanging off it...

1. On the west end is the living room, open cathedral ceiling to the peak of the roof. - it also has the stair cases down to the basement and up to the master suite, and on the south side the entrance to the laundry room, which leads to the garage.

2. In the middle is the kitchen / dining area, which runs the full width of the house, and has a normal ceiling.

3. On the east end is a bedroom section, with two bedrooms (we use them as offices) and the first floor bathroom. This section is a little longer in the back than the rest of the house, but there is a covered screen porch along the north side of the kitchen / living room that fills out the rest of the corner (the only attic space I've never been in is above this porch)

On the second floor, CENTERED above the first floor rooms in sections 2 and 3 is the master suite - there is a small balcony by the stairs which forms one wall of the master bath. The master bedroom covers the bedroom section and part of the kitchen section, with a small attic space on the north side, a larger one on the south, and another one over it (almost standing height)

In the basement, there is a large "family room" that uses the space under the first floor living and kitchen / dining rooms. There is a smaller finished room, an un-finished utility room and a half bath under the office / bedroom section.

The Utility room is actually an option for doing the boiler I guess, but it would be a bit of a challenge as the access to the gas chimney is a bit tight, and there would be a fair bit of plumbing to work around (including some cast into the floor waste pipes...) How much clearance do most boilers need? Both from a combustibles standpoint, and from the point of service access?

If I did that, it might offer other advantages - I could put the storage in the existing utility room, and tie into the existing DHW plumbing, etc. and only need to have the extra long plumbing run to work the solar panels. I could then use the basement bump-out as storage or maybe shop space, with the only other thing there being the wood elevator...

I'm really not at all comfortable with the idea of doing the boiler outside - we are in a suburban area, and while we are on a 1 acre lot, (much bigger than average, most of our neighbors are 1/4 to 1/2 acre) I know that there would be a LOT of objection to an outdoor installation - I'm on some town committees with a couple of our Selectmen, and they just about chit a brick when I mentioned the words wood and boiler in the same sentence... If I put it inside, with a fairly high chimney, it would be a lot less of an issue I'm sure... I also don't like the idea of losing the boiler heat outside in general, or having to go outside to take care of it... I want my boiler indoors!

Now for other comments...

NoFossil - I’m a big fan of cheapest possible solar hot water panels, but mostly for DHW during seasons when you wouldn’t want to fire up the boiler. In New England, the correct angle for summer operation is pretty near flat, and WAY below the angle that would shed snow. Solar panels have a pretty pathetic heat output compared to a boiler. I have three glazed copper plat collectors with an 80 square foot solar pool heater for preheat. On a good summer day I can get 100,000 BTU delivered into storage. That’s for the whole day. Winter sun angles are MUCH worse, and here in New England the sun doesn’t shine much in the winter anyway. Add the costs to deal with freezing, and it’s just not worth it in my opinion.

Passive solar is great, though. We don’t need any heat at all if it’s above about 10 degrees and the sun is shining. I’ve seen solar hot air panels installed on south facing walls that do a really good job and don’t have any of the control, plumbing, or freezing issues that water panels have.

Well, according to the sites I've been looking at, they say the best angle for year round is the latitude - IIRC, I'm at 43*, and 12/12 = 45* - I figure to put up a big array to get as much heat as possible for the winter, then use the excess in the summer for the swimming pool... I looked at doing passive solar, and our house setup is wrong for it...

Will continue...

Gooserider

 

[Gooserider]

Pybr - your 15x20 bump-out of the basement to put a full cellar under what is not the collapsed porch could provide a boiler room-

15x20 should leave room not only for storage, but also for the boiler, if it is all designed and installed correctly.

Then use a manufactured chimney right up and out through the new finished space above. This new “annex” of the cellar can keep the boiler in its own distinct space. Keep the woodstove as is, where is, for ambiance when desired.

It would, except that I'd need a stack like a factory to get high enough for proper draft with the 12/12 roof next to the annex. The other less significant problem is that it would be casting a big shadow on the south roof, which is a problem for solar...

My working assumption on the storage is to do something on the order of a 4x4x8 tank inside dimensions, probably work out to about 5 x 5 x 9 on the outside with all the insulation - should give me about 1,000 gallons more or less, which I think is a reasonable number...

steam man - I hate to even give the perception I am disagreeing with nofossil on the solar point...(take a deep breath mike).......but I have a few thoughts on your upgrades. If your mortagage is about to be paid off I assume you must be 45-60yo maybe. Anyway I have seen enough people that as they get older the last thing they can do is handle many cords of wood a year and eventually give up on it. I think handling wood gets old when getting into February though I do like my fires. Given your south facing roof I think it sounds ideal for a solar thermal setup, large enough for some space heating given you have a pool heat in the summer. At least you could get a good solar survey done to see what the possible solar potential really is. Combine this with dramatic energy improvements, insulation, radiant floor heating, etc...and updated heat loss calc. Max out your tax credits. The plumbing and freezing issues are pretty much non-issues with a properly designed system. At that point you could assess the possiblity of a gassifier set up for the days when it is below 25 deg to minimize wood use.

Age assumption is about right, I'm 51, she's a little younger. I'm in good shape, but the wood handling does get old, especially the dragging it into the house part - This is one reason I want the wood elevator, so that I can get around hauling it up and down a bunch of stairs. Also, while I scrounge some, I have to PAY for most of my wood, even if it is log length... If I can get the wood consumption down and / or the comfort level up, I'd be a lot happier - comparing notes, I'm currently using more wood than NoFossil, not staying as comfortable, and he's in a much colder climate... While I'm thinking in terms of weather sealing and insulation upgrades as part of the package, I think solar will also do a big peice towards closing the gap.

I also don't mind the idea of heating the pool at all... I'd never try to heat it with expensive energy, or even wood, but the fact is that we don't use it as much as we might, largely because it's so "refreshing" This is another big appeal of doing solar, to put it mildly.

leaddog - I’m not a fan of a boiler in the house for several reasons. dirt, ash dust, bugs, smoke, and fire danger.

As I mentioned, I'm not fond of the idea of it being outside - I see the heat losses, and your downsides I don't see as a big deal, as I already have all of them with the current wood stoves...

EnCalientesAqua - excuse the MA vs ME mix up. I laughed out loud, because I remember thinking as posting I shouldn’t be posting this after spending all day at a SuperB party—I should wait.

One member here, Solarguy, has a lat of 40. he lives in Indy. He has several write ups on his setup with pics. He uses a vac solar and an EKO. He has accidentally boiled off all of his water at 0F. He really could add to this discussion. I like wood because I can match my fires to demand.

I think that 2 things are required before you can go much further 1 heat calc 2 boiler placement

No problem on the mixup, I only pointed it out because of the climate difference between the two states...

I'm more leaning towards flat plate glazed collectors rather than the vac tubes... Besides being less expensive, I think they are a better fit for the climate... According to what I've read, the vac tubes are better in bright sun, but not as good as the flat plates in cloudy weather - As NF pointed out, we get lots of clouds in New England... Also I saw one comparison test that showed flat plates deal better with snow, frost, and other such coverings - a house with both types, the vac tube was covered in frost, but the "less efficient" flat plate had melted it off, and was busy making BTU's... ;-P

As to the heat loss, I did a Manual J heat calc on the house a while back, using the freeby download "Slant Fin" program... Not 100% sure I did it right, but I came up with about 85,000 BTU / hr heat loss on the house.

Will continue again...

Gooserider

 

[Gooserider]

DaveBP - If you’re reconciled to living in a demo zone for a while and especially if you plan on doing as much of the labor yourself as you can, try to take the opportunity to increase your insulation and reduce air infiltration everywhere you can. The investment will repay you every winter of the rest of your life, no matter what you heat with.

Normal building practice in New England is pretty piss poor to this day. The main response I’ve seen to the recent fuel price panic is to tack on some foam under vinyl siding. Lowering a house’s heatload can be very labor intensive on an existing house and very disruptive to the occupants But if you can improve your heating load you will appreciate it every year.

Then there is the question of improving the heating system....

I’m with Nofossil ( as usual but not always ) on solar hydronics in the winter. You get way out on the diminishing returns high-dive board trying to squeeze heat out of our soggy winter sky. It can be done and there are lots of wonderful examples but the BTUs/dollar ratio goes down way fast. Look at a most attractive-to-you system and rough-in the plumbing to the roof while things are all apart in case you win a lottery later on.

There are professional consultants out there that can advise homeowners on various ways to do all this stuff and at what budget levels. I have no idea what they charge but sometimes those guys help a lot to hack through all the bewildering options. Compared to the total cost of a project like this it may not be so much money.

As I've said, I think there is a lot we can do to improve the air sealing, the question is paying for it... I'm not thrilled with the insulation quality in the parts of the house I've been into, and there are definitely areas that could stand improving...

True on the heating system as well - a lot of the question is how big a set of panels will work out the best. I'm almost more tempted to do just the solar first and see what it does, then add the wood boiler if needed.

I do agree the consultant might be useful, at least once I get everything written down. The challenge to some degree is figuring out the sequencing of all this. (I'm leaving out most of the several page document I've got going on the things wrong with the house!) Any suggestions on finding such a person?

steam man - Certainly solar can be very expensive but sometimes I think for the work wood takes it can be very expensive. Its definately a lifestyle. My only thought is to get to a point where only the 3 months of winter will require alternate/supplement heat. Everyday this month I pretty much make some if not all of my DHW and maybe some extra if I had that part ready to go. Not enough yet to be worth much. I think maxing out solar potential should be #1 priority and then supplement the rest. Doing your own work obviously saves a lot of money. I figure the tax rebate for solar allows me to keep my money. It makes perfect financial sense to me.

Mike

I think wood IS expensive if you put a value on the time and energy it takes to process, and handle it... I'd love to cut back the amount of wood that I had to burn, even after I stop using the NG for everything but cooking...

Redox - Goose, it sounds like you are about where I am in the home design situation: gas FHA and a cold basement and wondering which direction to go. I also have a huge roof facing due south that’s also screaming out ( heard it again yesterday) for a bank of collectors. The biggest problem is that the one stove is doing such a good job at covering 80% of my needs that it’s hard to justify any more large expenditures. But we can dream, can’t we?

I happen to like the idea of a gassifier next to my entertainment center, but I think my wife may have an issue with it. Hauling the wood down to the basement would be a PITA, even with an open window to throw it into. The back porch might be a consideration, but it would be nice to use it as a porch, instead of an annex to the garage/basement/attic collection we have. The garage is already too small and under the deck or in a shed has other logistical problems. I do think it really ought to be outside for maximum W/GFAF.

I plan on putting radiant in the FR slab when it gets finished off as well as possibly in the basement work space. I think I will hook this up to a NG water heater for the few times that I would want to run it. Then, I will consider adding a few flat plate collectors on the roof and see how they do. By this time, I will have something of a hydronic system in the house and the boiler won’t be too much of a stretch. Then the total conversion to wood heat will be relatively easy. That’s the plan, anyhow. Don’t tell my wife!

Take each little project and adapt it to the final big picture. I think nofo is right, once you have cheap wood heat, the solar would just become a novelty.

Chris

I agree, it does sound like we are in similar places, except that I'm not as happy with my stove's performance. The flip side is you are much farther south, so you have lower heat needs, and presumably better solar potential...

The wood handling is probably my biggest gripe as a wood burner, which is why I keep talking about the wood elevator - I have it designed out in my head, and it would be terrific - a door outside at ground level, and inside doors 4 feet up on the first floor and 4 feet down to the basement floor... Have two or three identical carts to move the wood with that can be rotated in and out, and life would be excellent...

Gooserider

 

[leaddog]

An other option is to go with a chip burner. I recieved an email from a co. in Canada that is going to be selling a chip boiler from Austria. they are in the cert. stage and should be for sale this summer. I looked at the info and it looks good. Seeing as you have to buy your wood, chips might work out and they will also burn pellets. The boiler modulates so it would eliminate storage or make smaller storage requirments. I have no idea on price but here is the web site http://www.greensunrising.com/
They also sell solar products
leaddog

 

[DaveBP]

wood handling is probably my biggest gripe as a wood burner, which is why I keep talking about the wood elevator - I have it designed out in my head, and it would be terrific - a door outside at ground level, and inside doors 4 feet up on the first floor and 4 feet down to the basement floor…

I don't know what pathway you need to your basement from this outside door, but if it's down all the way at better than about 30 degrees a black poly culvert works slick (pun intended). They come in 10" dia and 10ft. long at most building supply places. Two people can put a lot of wood in the basement in very short time and then pull out the culvert and store it outside. They're weatherproof and pretty inconspicuous. If you can leave it in place, it might even fit between studs with minimal framing modification. I'm not sure, but I think they can be had in longer lengths, too. They can be coupled up but I would anticipate hangups at the joint.

If I were looking into a roof-mounted solar installation, I would at least call around to solar consultants in your area and see what they offer and at what cost. Solar hardware and system dealers can be a good source of info as long as you keep in mind that they tend to pitch the products they represent. Who doesn't? Any of those guys will be current on any tax advantages available to you. And they will know what your local climate has to offer in the way of BTUs/day all across the calendar. Both very important factors.
If you're tantalized by the thought of solar hydronic heat in the winter though, I would look at the drainback systems and stay away from the antifreeze. Much simpler and simple is good. Others may disagree.

 

[Gooserider]

I haven't looked a lot at chip boilers and such, but my impression is that they fall down on several fronts -

1. Harder to make your own fuel - I can drop a tree and turn it to cordwood, or get log length and process it myself fairly cheaply - making chips is much harder - so you are dependent on an outside supplier

2. Needs much more "infrastructure" to keep the chips stored, dry, and do the general handling. Cordwood needs a cart or other cheap way to move it, and maybe a low budget shed to keep it dry...

3. More moving parts, therefore more points of failure...

Gooserider

 

[EnCalientesAqua]

I’m more leaning towards flat plate glazed collectors rather than the vac tubes… Besides being less expensive, I think they are a better fit for the climate… According to what I’ve read, the vac tubes are better in bright sun, but not as good as the flat plates in cloudy weather - As NF pointed out, we get lots of clouds in New England… Also I saw one comparison test that showed flat plates deal better with snow, frost, and other such coverings - a house with both types, the vac tube was covered in frost, but the “less efficient” flat plate had melted it off, and was busy making BTU’s…

Tubes may well be better suited to other climates. I know I have seen charts that outline where on average they are more effective due to location. After having seen your roof slope and size I imagine your could heat a great deal with that much sq '. I see the appeal.

As to the heat loss, I did a Manual J heat calc on the house a while back, using the freeby download “Slant Fin” program… Not 100% sure I did it right, but I came up with about 85,000 BTU / hr heat loss on the house.

This will be interesting because I think I would try to pull of an EKO 25 in your place. But, You may not be able to meet demand during the lowest temps. Did you have a front running choice on boiler brand or model.

I’m really not at all comfortable with the idea of doing the boiler outside - we are in a suburban area, and while we are on a 1 acre lot, (much bigger than average, most of our neighbors are 1/4 to 1/2 acre) I know that there would be a LOT of objection to an outdoor installation - I’m on some town committees with a couple of our Selectmen, and they just about chit a brick when I mentioned the words wood and boiler in the same sentence… If I put it inside, with a fairly high chimney, it would be a lot less of an issue I’m sure… I also don’t like the idea of losing the boiler heat outside in general, or having to go outside to take care of it… I want my boiler indoors!

I had to sneek my boiler in. I used a very short pipe. Put it in a place where people can't see it easily. I unlike you would never be allowed onto any town boards. LOL
That said no one ever see smoke so they don't complain.


Overall it sounds like a fun set of projects. I hope you enjoy the time working on it. And, I am sure you'll be happy with the conversion from stove to boiler.

Good luck Calli

 

[Gooserider]

wood handling is probably my biggest gripe as a wood burner, which is why I keep talking about the wood elevator - I have it designed out in my head, and it would be terrific - a door outside at ground level, and inside doors 4 feet up on the first floor and 4 feet down to the basement floor…

I don't know what pathway you need to your basement from this outside door, but if it's down all the way at better than about 30 degrees a black poly culvert works slick (pun intended). They come in 10" dia and 10ft. long at most building supply places. Two people can put a lot of wood in the basement in very short time and then pull out the culvert and store it outside. They're weatherproof and pretty inconspicuous. If you can leave it in place, it might even fit between studs with minimal framing modification. I'm not sure, but I think they can be had in longer lengths, too. They can be coupled up but I would anticipate hangups at the joint.

Essentially I have flat ground, and a fairly short distance... If you saw the photo of the collapsed porch earlier in the thread, the wood sheds are just outside the picture on the left. If I just had to put wood into the basement, I'd agree that a chute would be great, but I also need to feed the stove on the first floor as well - the way the house is layed out, ground level is about half way between the basement and first floors, so I need to go both up and down with the wood... I also have a strong desire to make anything I do as much of a solo task as I can, the GF is not in good shape physically, and has poor stamina and coordination - I've learned to avoid trying to have her help me move things, as we usually end up mad at each other, and often tend to hurt each other when she fails to properly do the "mover's dance" The wood elevator would do both the way I'm visualizing it.

If I were looking into a roof-mounted solar installation, I would at least call around to solar consultants in your area and see what they offer and at what cost. Solar hardware and system dealers can be a good source of info as long as you keep in mind that they tend to pitch the products they represent. Who doesn't? Any of those guys will be current on any tax advantages available to you. And they will know what your local climate has to offer in the way of BTUs/day all across the calendar. Both very important factors.
If you're tantalized by the thought of solar hydronic heat in the winter though, I would look at the drainback systems and stay away from the antifreeze. Much simpler and simple is good. Others may disagree.

I agree on tapping into the local consultants, though a lot of them seem to be wanting to push electric solar much more than heat - but I'm not convinced the payback is there for solar electric yet...

As to the style of system, I was initially thinking drainback as well, but the problem is that it's a hellacious rise from the basement to the peak of the roof, probably 40-45 feet or thereabouts - to do a drainback I'd need a pump that could push that much head, which translates to a big, power hungry monster, I'm not even sure they MAKE a normal Taco or equivalent pump that can push that high... OTOH, a closed system doesn't care about height to any great degree (other than when charging it) so I'd just need a pump that could move the appropriate volume - probably something like a Grundfos three speed? I don't like the complications of antifreeze either, but I don't see a good way to go without it.

I will say that it looks like I'm going to end up with a slew of heat exchangers in any case, so what's one more for the solar circuit...

Gooserider

 

[Gooserider]

<snip>

As to the heat loss, I did a Manual J heat calc on the house a while back, using the freeby download “Slant Fin” program… Not 100% sure I did it right, but I came up with about 85,000 BTU / hr heat loss on the house.

This will be interesting because I think I would try to pull of an EKO 25 in your place. But, You may not be able to meet demand during the lowest temps. Did you have a front running choice on boiler brand or model.

I don't have any firm inclinations on boiler choice, though I do have some kind thoughts about EKO. I am inclined towards the smaller models, though I agree that they might be challenged in the coldest temps - however that doesn't count the solar, or the other wood stoves, so I think the smaller units would work out OK... One concern is that I may be limited in my choices by gov't code crapola - Far as I know, MA requires that boilers be ASTME stamped, and I don't know if they will buy off on some of the Euro brands with TUV certification (even though TUV is at least as tough, if not tougher than ASTME) - of the brands I've looked at so far, Wood Gun seems to be the only ASTME certified unit...

I’m really not at all comfortable with the idea of doing the boiler outside - we are in a suburban area, and while we are on a 1 acre lot, (much bigger than average, most of our neighbors are 1/4 to 1/2 acre) I know that there would be a LOT of objection to an outdoor installation - I’m on some town committees with a couple of our Selectmen, and they just about chit a brick when I mentioned the words wood and boiler in the same sentence… If I put it inside, with a fairly high chimney, it would be a lot less of an issue I’m sure… I also don’t like the idea of losing the boiler heat outside in general, or having to go outside to take care of it… I want my boiler indoors!

I had to sneek my boiler in. I used a very short pipe. Put it in a place where people can't see it easily. I unlike you would never be allowed onto any town boards. LOL
That said no one ever see smoke so they don't complain.


Overall it sounds like a fun set of projects. I hope you enjoy the time working on it. And, I am sure you'll be happy with the conversion from stove to boiler.

Good luck Calli[/quote]

Actually you'd be surprised - There are loads of boards and committees in most towns, and often it is a challenge to fill them - if you let them know you are interested in volunteering for stuff they will probably find lots of things to do... Here we have a representative Town Meeting style government, where people run for the position - most of the races are not contested... I'm currently going for my 3rd term, my first term I had one of the only two contested races in town, 8 candidates for 7 seats... The second term wasn't contested, and it looks like this one won't be either.

Actually I'm not as worried about public opinion on the boiler install, as much as I'm worried about permitting issues - I figure the less I give them in the way of excuses to turn me down the better...

Gooserider

 

[pybyr]

GooseRider-

First, disclaimers up front- I am a Ural Rider, so you know that I march to an even more different drum than you do-

I think you will find, at least from what I have seen, that a gasifier needs a LOT less vertical height of chimney to work OK than most other wood-burning heating appliances, and is less picky about how far the flue exit is above surrounding structures I say that as someone who has fooled with a lot of wood burning appliances in several different locations.

When my gasifier is lit off and in full burn, there's ZERO smoke coming out the stack.

Econoburn is rated for all the US codes, plus is EnergyStar certified, which may equal a tax credit. Plus it is made in USA and regionally, and has _terrific_ factory and tech support.

In my case, anything inside the house's existing external vertical+horizontal perimeter needs no permits. In MA you may not be so lucky, but you may be able to fly "low to the ground" even if not completely "under the radar." _Don't_ call it a wood boiler: call it an "ultra high efficiency, ultra-low emission, Energy-Star Certified advanced biomass renewable heating appliance." That is, after all, what it actually is!

 

[flyingcow]

Its all in the wording. I've got a garage that is now called a wood storage facility,because the ins co had strict ideas about a wood burning appliance in a "garage" where typically there is gas and other related fumes.
Do not use "wood gassification boiler". Tends to make people think "emergency response in route, gas explosion".

pybyr has a good choice of words to define it.

 

[Gooserider]

I agree that wording can help, but I know when I was doing my stoves, the inspector required a copy of the manuals, which judging from the websites, probably say "Wood Gasification Boiler" all over them...

Gooserider