Englander 25-PDVC modes & codes?

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kharrisma

New Member
Dec 21, 2018
37
Bristol, NH
HI Forum Folke!

I keep running into references to things like "diagnostic mode," "factory reset" "codes" and other stuff that just isn't in my operators manual. Where can I find this information? I know there's no schematic for this board available (yet... I'm working on it), but there should be instructions somewhere on the various functions of this board (PU-CB04.) I spent many years working on multi-microprocessor-controlled electric lift trucks, and a lot of that work involved checking input and output voltages with a meter, so I do know my way around a control card. I can see some jumper terminals and stuff, but have no idea what they're for. Also, there must be test points on the card so that inputs from the vac sensor circuit and temp sensor, and outputs to the motors & blowers can be checked with a meter. I'm not looking to actually fix the board, just verify that all inputs are good, and all outputs are good, with the exception of the upper auger motor output, which is obviously not right. This would prove (at least to my satisfaction) that the card is indeed the culprit, but there's not much hard info out there on this card, at least none that I can find.

I've posted a question for my problem already, asking for input regarding the specific problem described below (I don't think I posted it here... apologies if I did), but I think I'm asking for the wrong thing. If I can find the operating instructions for the control card (as opposed to the whole stove), and some information on the test points on the card itself, I might be able to get a better handle on my issue.

I"ve been using it since 2011. Had to replace at various times: igniter, combustion blower, combustion blower vacuum hose, upper auger motor, and one of the vac switches... typical Englander stove problems. Recently (as in two days ago,) it started malfunctioning. Again. It's failing to start.. more accurately, it's failing to run. The fire always starts, but then goes out. It's a 25-PDVC/55-SHP10 (purchased at Home Depot post 2004; I "inherited" it when I bought the property.) Afte pushing the "ON" button, the upper auger motor runs about 10 sec, then stops for about 10 sec. So far, so good. Problem is, after just a couple of minutes, just about the time the fire actually appears in the burn box, the upper auger motor starts turning for only about half a second, then off for 12 seconds, and nothing seems to affect this. The fire does start, but then goes out for lack of fuel (at first with no codes, but today it gave me an "E2" code: failure to start.) Nobody has messed with any of the buttons... the wife won't get near the thing, and there's no kids in the shop; nobody touches it but me. It ran perfectly one day, and the next day, this nonsense started up.

The burn chamber vac port is clear (I reamed it out), the vac hose is perfect and applied tightly to the port tube and the vac switch. The vac switch is intact, no cracks or anything. Using a Fluke 87 meter, it reads open when at rest, and with a light vacuum applied, there is continuity through the switch. All wiring looks fine, no charring or melting or mouse-chewing or anything. This particular stove does not have a hopper lid switch, so that's out.

I'm leaning towards a bad control card, but before I shell out $200+, I'd like to be more certain that this is the problem. Does anyone have a source of info for the various operating modes for this control card, and maybe some info on the test points on the card? It would be much appreciated!

Addendum since posting this thread:
Last attempt to start stove, got the long run/long off upper auger time, as normal, then it started the short run, long off thing again. Fire still burning, but getting low due to lack of fuel. Took card loose from stove (while stove was running, without disconnecting anything, just pulled the two mounting screws) and laid it face down on a box behind the stove and went into house to search internet for more info... found the reset procedure, posted this, then went back out to reset the stove... and there's a roaring fire in the stove. Apparently this thing will run with the card out of the stove, face down, but not with the card mounted in the stove. What could possibly have suddenly occurred to cause this condition? Only difference I can think of is A: different stressing of wire harness due to changed position, B: different physical orientation of the card, and C: it's not grounded to the stove body anymore, either.

Now I'm completely baffled. Maybe I should check for the presence of voltage in the stove frame, feeding into the card via the ground? It isn't shocking me when touching it, but I haven't actually put a meter to it yet. Voltage into a ground circuit is a total unknown, as far as what it might do to the card's behavior... and how/why would a wiring harness or connector suddenly go "bad" so that moving the wires around or side-stressing the card connector would get things to run again? This development just adds a great deal more confusion to an already confusing situation. Ain't this fun?
 
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Ssyko

Minister of Fire
Nov 6, 2017
4,259
Lorraine NY
diagnostic mode: unplug stove wait 5 sec. plug back in and within 3 seconds press the LBA/AOT buttons at the same time. the 3 lower button lights will come on press LBA once again and you are in diagnostics mode. 2 dashes will show in the windows. heat range up button will turn on upper auger and the light will change to a small o down button turns on the lower auger and the light will be like an 8. pushing the blower speed up button turns on the combustion blower and does the small o and the down button turns on the convection blower then again an 8 meaning it cna be verifide by observing each motor. now the thing is, diagnostics is on a separate program on the 28pin prom/ic/pic so it is good when the board has not been over powered or shorted. it will show everything works and the business side does not. long chats and emails with Mike Holten and i am the one to blame for them not selling the proms separately (long story)anymore. you buy a new board

Factory reset: unplug stove wait 5 sec. plug back in and within 3 sec push all 3 bottom buttons an hold for 5 sec release and F5 wil show in window. this just put setting back to factory. which should be 5-4-1 and mode for your stove. 25PDVC mode D / 25PDV mode C.

Mode change: unplug stove wait 5 sec. plug back in hold blower sped up and down arrows down for 5 sec then release. the mode the stove is in will be displayed in the heat range window A,B,C,D. to change press heat range up or down to desired mode. A,B are for different stoves so they should not be used.

as for the schematic! that is not even available to ESW. it is proprietary and probably never to be released do to the boards are subcontracted out to meet their requirements. you will have to trace the circuits yourself. if you use the search option you will find countless threads on the 2 stoves.

NOTE: from the chip co. Note the following details of the code protection feature on Microchip devices: • Microchip products meet the specification contained in their particular Microchip Data Sheet. • Microchip believes that its family of products is one of the most secure families of its kind on the market today, when used in the intended manner and under normal conditions. • There are dishonest and possibly illegal methods used to breach the code protection feature. All of these methods, to our knowledge, require using the Microchip products in a manner outside the operating specifications contained in Microchip’s Data Sheets. Most likely, the person doing so is engaged in theft of intellectual property. • Microchip is willing to work with the customer who is concerned about the integrity of their code. • Neither Microchip nor any other semiconductor manufacturer can guarantee the security of their code. Code protection does not mean that we are guaranteeing the product as “unbreakable.” Code protection is constantly evolving. We at Microchip are committed to continuously improving the code protection features of our products. Attempts to break Microchip’s code protection feature may be a violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. If such acts allow unauthorized access to your software or other copyrighted work, you may have a right to sue for relief under that Act.

wire.jpg CU-CB05_Englander_Control_Panel_large.jpg



25pdv and pdvc have a verrrrry weak exhaust. everything is dependent on the vacuum it draws either the vent is plugged/restricted, path through the stove is plugged/restricted, intake is plugged or restricted. or your motor is to weak, the fan blade is worn out and its not able to pull a good vacuum.
 
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kharrisma

New Member
Dec 21, 2018
37
Bristol, NH
diagnostic mode: unplug stove wait 5 sec. plug back in and within 3 seconds press the LBA/AOT buttons at the same time. the 3 lower button lights will come on press LBA once again and you are in diagnostics mode. 2 dashes will show in the windows. heat range up button will turn on upper auger and the light will change to a small o down button turns on the lower auger and the light will be like an 8. pushing the blower speed up button turns on the combustion blower and does the small o and the down button turns on the convection blower then again an 8 meaning it cna be verifide by observing each motor. now the thing is, diagnostics is on a separate program on the 28pin prom/ic/pic so it is good when the board has not been over powered or shorted. it will show everything works and the business side does not. long chats and emails with Mike Holten and i am the one to blame for them not selling the proms separately (long story)anymore. you buy a new board

Factory reset: unplug stove wait 5 sec. plug back in and within 3 sec push all 3 bottom buttons an hold for 5 sec release and F5 wil show in window. this just put setting back to factory. which should be 5-4-1 and mode for your stove. 25PDVC mode D / 25PDV mode C.

Mode change: unplug stove wait 5 sec. plug back in hold blower sped up and down arrows down for 5 sec then release. the mode the stove is in will be displayed in the heat range window A,B,C,D. to change press heat range up or down to desired mode. A,B are for different stoves so they should not be used.

as for the schematic! that is not even available to ESW. it is proprietary and probably never to be released do to the boards are subcontracted out to meet their requirements. you will have to trace the circuits yourself. if you use the search option you will find countless threads on the 2 stoves.

NOTE: from the chip co. Note the following details of the code protection feature on Microchip devices: • Microchip products meet the specification contained in their particular Microchip Data Sheet. • Microchip believes that its family of products is one of the most secure families of its kind on the market today, when used in the intended manner and under normal conditions. • There are dishonest and possibly illegal methods used to breach the code protection feature. All of these methods, to our knowledge, require using the Microchip products in a manner outside the operating specifications contained in Microchip’s Data Sheets. Most likely, the person doing so is engaged in theft of intellectual property. • Microchip is willing to work with the customer who is concerned about the integrity of their code. • Neither Microchip nor any other semiconductor manufacturer can guarantee the security of their code. Code protection does not mean that we are guaranteeing the product as “unbreakable.” Code protection is constantly evolving. We at Microchip are committed to continuously improving the code protection features of our products. Attempts to break Microchip’s code protection feature may be a violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. If such acts allow unauthorized access to your software or other copyrighted work, you may have a right to sue for relief under that Act.

View attachment 236852 View attachment 236854



25pdv and pdvc have a verrrrry weak exhaust. everything is dependent on the vacuum it draws either the vent is plugged/restricted, path through the stove is plugged/restricted, intake is plugged or restricted. or your motor is to weak, the fan blade is worn out and its not able to pull a good vacuum.


Thanks so much for your quick reply, Ssyko! That information is extremely helpful. A little of it I knew, but most of it I didn't. Wife needs heat for tomorrow, but after that, I'll try the reset and diagnostics and see where that gets me. It's still running as I type this, with the card laying on a box outside of the stove.... :\ Anyone have any idea where to stick a meter on this card to get voltage readings for different components? That'd be even more helpful!
 

Rneal55555

Member
Nov 29, 2014
21
Milton, NH
New to this bit has anyone ever found bad solder joints on these cards. I some of the old motorcycles I've had they has control boards that would give sometimes interment and sometimes constant faults which could be repaired just by re-flowing the solder joints on the circuit board.
 

Ssyko

Minister of Fire
Nov 6, 2017
4,259
Lorraine NY
New to this bit has anyone ever found bad solder joints on these cards. I some of the old motorcycles I've had they has control boards that would give sometimes interment and sometimes constant faults which could be repaired just by re-flowing the solder joints on the circuit board.

I havent run across any yet. I've only had 5
 

kharrisma

New Member
Dec 21, 2018
37
Bristol, NH
New to this bit has anyone ever found bad solder joints on these cards. I some of the old motorcycles I've had they has control boards that would give sometimes interment and sometimes constant faults which could be repaired just by re-flowing the solder joints on the circuit board.
I have indeed seen this kind of fault in the lift trucks and guide-by-wire steering systems I used to work on. Generally on the stuff that'd been out there for awhile, too. Couldn't hurt to reflow the thing if nothing else turns up.
 

kharrisma

New Member
Dec 21, 2018
37
Bristol, NH
The colored wiring diagram the top of the board all the spades I marked are the outpus for the components
Thanks... I got that. The connectors are all shielded, and you can't really get a meter prod onto them without risking shorting things out with the prods. I have an insulation-piercing prod, but it's never worked very well, and I still need to know where to put the negative prod (AC neutral or DC ground... and where IS DC ground?) On other equipment, I've partially pulled connectors back, exposing the base of the lug, and put the meter prods on those... but it's far easier and less risky if you know points on the card itself to put the prods on to get readings. This was why I liked the older lift trucks so much better than the new microprocessor-controlled stuff... they used a lot of terminal strips, and you could get readings right off of those. The newer stuff is all connector cabling, no access points other than on the cards.

I'm also looking for stuff like voltage to the base lead of the transistors beneath the connector row, to see just what the card is telling the transistor to do. If the upper auger motor is running only in short bursts, and the card is driving the transistor in the same way, then I can forget about the whole auger circuit... the card is most likely bad at this point.

As I understand the workings of this thing, the upper auger runs intermittently, with on/off timing dictated by the heat range settings you dial in, and with input from the thermal sensor should things get too hot, or the stove fail to start. I see no other means of affecting the upper auger feed within normal operating parameters. If the burn box vacuum circuit is faulty in any way, the upper auger shouldn't run at all, period, since it's wired in series with the motor. With any fault of any kind, it just becomes an open circuit (no vacuum = open switch, , switch failed open = open switch, holed diaphragm = no vacuum = open switch, etc.) So, if it runs at all, it's virtually certain that there's nothing wrong with the motor, vac switch, vac tubing, or vac port in the burn box. Yes, it is possible that there's still a problem in there somewhere, but the likelihood of this goes waaaay down if the motor can run at all. And if the card is driving the transistor in short bursts,the same way the motor is running, then there's nothing wrong with the motor either, and there's definitely something wrong in the card workings... what exactly is wrong doesn't matter, as they generally aren't fixable (on a practical level.... you can fix almost anything, if you want to sink the $$ into it)... you just R&R the thing. Knowing exactly what failed is nice, but getting it to run reliably is more important than that knowledge.

I guess I'm just used to troubleshooting far more sophisticated equipment, on stuff where information is readily available (though not at the card schematic level, like these stoves,) and these stoves aren't exactly highly sophisticated. Still, the opacity of the workings of these things is troublesome. I've never been a fan of shot-gunning parts into something until it works, especially when it's me that's footing the bill. I like a large degree of certainty before buying a part (expensive or otherwise.) I had a rep as a single-call fixer, and I'd like to think I can maintain that, even after retirement. Got standards to maintain, dont'cha know! :)
 
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kharrisma

New Member
Dec 21, 2018
37
Bristol, NH
What are the lower 3 settings? With the stove running push each button 1 time it should be 5-4-1
I'll check the settings when I've got some breakfast in me and some clothes on. I'm almost afraid to touch it, since I don't know what's keeping it running at this point!
 

Ssyko

Minister of Fire
Nov 6, 2017
4,259
Lorraine NY
I don’t know what the lift trucks used for processing power but believe it or not these boards and PIC controlers are highly sophisticated, as far as ground goes google the transformer on the bord find the pin outs that will giv you your ground for DC
 

kharrisma

New Member
Dec 21, 2018
37
Bristol, NH
I don’t know what the lift trucks used for processing power but believe it or not these boards and PIC controlers are highly sophisticated, as far as ground goes google the transformer on the bord find the pin outs that will giv you your ground for DC
I don't mean to demean the control system in this stove; I was using sophisticated in a relative way. Admittedly they're fairly sophisticated, just not to the same level as man-up, wire-guided lift trucks with multiple interfacing processors talking across an onboard network. For what these stoves do, they're pretty smart, in absolute terms. Thanks for the tip re: the transformer!
 

Ssyko

Minister of Fire
Nov 6, 2017
4,259
Lorraine NY
Then you will be more than capable to trace the circuits. I found a pic of my notes when I was messing with the board in my old pdvc this may help also.

eswcontrolTRACE.jpg
 
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kharrisma

New Member
Dec 21, 2018
37
Bristol, NH
Then you will be more than capable to trace the circuits. I found a pic of my notes when I was messing with the board in my old pdvc this may help also.

View attachment 236982

Update: I still have no idea what caused such outlandish behavior from this stove, but putting it through a factory reset procedure seems to have cleared everything up. I've run it several times, and it behaves as it should: good, long upper auger runs, fire lights and stays lit. Tons of heat. Thanks for all your help with this!
 

kharrisma

New Member
Dec 21, 2018
37
Bristol, NH
diagnostic mode: unplug stove wait 5 sec. plug back in and within 3 seconds press the LBA/AOT buttons at the same time. the 3 lower button lights will come on press LBA once again and you are in diagnostics mode. 2 dashes will show in the windows. heat range up button will turn on upper auger and the light will change to a small o down button turns on the lower auger and the light will be like an 8. pushing the blower speed up button turns on the combustion blower and does the small o and the down button turns on the convection blower then again an 8 meaning it cna be verifide by observing each motor. now the thing is, diagnostics is on a separate program on the 28pin prom/ic/pic so it is good when the board has not been over powered or shorted. it will show everything works and the business side does not. long chats and emails with Mike Holten and i am the one to blame for them not selling the proms separately (long story)anymore. you buy a new board

Factory reset: unplug stove wait 5 sec. plug back in and within 3 sec push all 3 bottom buttons an hold for 5 sec release and F5 wil show in window. this just put setting back to factory. which should be 5-4-1 and mode for your stove. 25PDVC mode D / 25PDV mode C.

Mode change: unplug stove wait 5 sec. plug back in hold blower sped up and down arrows down for 5 sec then release. the mode the stove is in will be displayed in the heat range window A,B,C,D. to change press heat range up or down to desired mode. A,B are for different stoves so they should not be used.

as for the schematic! that is not even available to ESW. it is proprietary and probably never to be released do to the boards are subcontracted out to meet their requirements. you will have to trace the circuits yourself. if you use the search option you will find countless threads on the 2 stoves.

NOTE: from the chip co. Note the following details of the code protection feature on Microchip devices: • Microchip products meet the specification contained in their particular Microchip Data Sheet. • Microchip believes that its family of products is one of the most secure families of its kind on the market today, when used in the intended manner and under normal conditions. • There are dishonest and possibly illegal methods used to breach the code protection feature. All of these methods, to our knowledge, require using the Microchip products in a manner outside the operating specifications contained in Microchip’s Data Sheets. Most likely, the person doing so is engaged in theft of intellectual property. • Microchip is willing to work with the customer who is concerned about the integrity of their code. • Neither Microchip nor any other semiconductor manufacturer can guarantee the security of their code. Code protection does not mean that we are guaranteeing the product as “unbreakable.” Code protection is constantly evolving. We at Microchip are committed to continuously improving the code protection features of our products. Attempts to break Microchip’s code protection feature may be a violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. If such acts allow unauthorized access to your software or other copyrighted work, you may have a right to sue for relief under that Act.

View attachment 236852 View attachment 236854



25pdv and pdvc have a verrrrry weak exhaust. everything is dependent on the vacuum it draws either the vent is plugged/restricted, path through the stove is plugged/restricted, intake is plugged or restricted. or your motor is to weak, the fan blade is worn out and its not able to pull a good vacuum.

Thanks for all your help with this! Running a Factory-Reset seems to have cleared up the problem. Still no idea what could cause such outlandish behavior from this thing, but knowing what will fix it is more important, I guess. Still going to dig into the card workings, just out of sheer curiosity... but not until heating season is over. Thanks again!