Enviro Empress Blowing Fuses?

[cabby737]

So we just started our first winter in this house and the house had an enviro empress pellet stove. We don't know how old it is but the previous owners took good care of everything and even showed us how to clean it, clean the flue etc everything before we closed.

After about 4 days of trouble free use it just went out. We found that the fuse on the board had blown. Replaced it, and boom blew again. Called repair guy he said the board is bad and it will be $500 for a new one installed. Looked online and the board itself is $350. I'm a stubborn engineer so I like to dissect things before dropping that kind of money. And there is no way I'm paying someone $150 to un-do 4 screws and 2 cables.

So I pulled the board and the chip that switched the ignitor looked burnt. It was brown and I could also see a burnt spot on the bottom of the board underneath it. I bought a new chip from digikey for $1.58 and soldered it on and same problem. The fuse is blowing as soon as I turn the stove on and the fan kicks in. Basically as soon as the fan turns on that is when the fuse blows.

How can I tell if my problem is the fan or the board?

btw, I'm a mech engineer, not electrical. I can follow instructions and have a meter but am not super wire savvy. If you've got any trouble shooting tips please be as detailed as possible.

Thanks!
Sarah

 

[jtakeman]

Welcome to the forums. We'll try to assist you as best we can.

It could be the igniter is shorted and that's whats killing the fuse.

Safety first and disconnect power to the stove(I just have to say it!) Disconnect the igniter wires check the continuity with a meter. You could also check the fans as well. It could also be when the chip failed it arced a short in the board layers. If all the components check out OK I would assume you need a new board. ONe way to be sure the other components are ok is to use an old lamp cord and connect to house current(only if the check OK with a meter).

I've links some boards for you

50-1477 WHS

50-1444

 

[cabby737]

Thanks, I"ll check the ignitor in a few minutes, but first I had a question about the fan. And yes, I always unplug the thing when I'm tinkering, being not an electrical person gives me a healty fear of electricity that most of my EE (electrical engineering) friends don't seem to have.

If I bypass the board and plug it in directly and it is what is bad will it just blow the fuse on the outlet? The fan does start for about a second before the fuse pops.

The ignitor switch arcing across board layers is pretty possible though.

The links you sent aren't the same as my board. I've already found it, problem is it's the one that requires a new daughter board as well because they have discontinued my board and the pair is $350 and non-returnable. That's the only thing making me hesitant, it's $350 that I can't get back if it's not the board so I want to be totally sure.

I push the power button, the light comes on, the fan comes on and then pop, the fuse blows. It takes just about 1 second. Typically it would be 5-10 minutes before it would normally light.

 

[jtakeman]

Sounds more like its popping the fuse from the igniter or auger circuit. The fan needs to come on first to close the vacuum switch. Once the vacuum switch is closed the control then turns on other items in the start curcuit. If you disconnect the vacuum switch the fan should stay running.

What is the part number for your board?

This board could still be fixable but you might have to be creative. But will it give you issues down the road? Once there stressed, who knows what could pop next!

 

[cabby737]

Okay, the ignitor is not shorted. Checked the wires and no cont.
I did however get some oil on my hands from messing around near the auger when I brushed the bottom of it, is that normal? There isn't a drip or puddle, but the bottom of the components were wet/oily

My board is this one:http://www.stove-parts-unlimited.com/Empress_FPI_and_Milan_Mother_Board_p/50-1392.htm

Which needs this as a replacement http://www.stove-parts-unlimited.com/Empress_FPI_and_Milan_Circuit_Board_Kit_p/50-2088.htm

So, if it's the auger, I should be able to disconnect it, then turn the stove on and it should run if I throw a few pellets in the burn pot right? At least it will start up that way.

One other question, do I have to have the chimney/flue connected to test this? I have to have the thing pushed all the way in to connect it and it's a pain (and weighs a ton!) I know it might blow ash/fumes into my house but for a 3 minute test it's easier than pushing the thing in and connecting it only to have to pull it out and disconnect it in 2 seconds.

 

[jtakeman]

Okay, the ignitor is not shorted. Checked the wires and no cont.
I did however get some oil on my hands from messing around near the auger when I brushed the bottom of it, is that normal? There isn't a drip or puddle, but the bottom of the components were wet/oily

My board is this one:http://www.stove-parts-unlimited.com/Empress_FPI_and_Milan_Mother_Board_p/50-1392.htm

Which needs this as a replacement http://www.stove-parts-unlimited.com/Empress_FPI_and_Milan_Circuit_Board_Kit_p/50-2088.htm

So, if it's the auger, I should be able to disconnect it, then turn the stove on and it should run if I throw a few pellets in the burn pot right? At least it will start up that way.

One other question, do I have to have the chimney/flue connected to test this? I have to have the thing pushed all the way in to connect it and it's a pain (and weighs a ton!) I know it might blow ash/fumes into my house but for a 3 minute test it's easier than pushing the thing in and connecting it only to have to pull it out and disconnect it in 2 seconds.

I really don't recommend testing without it hooked to the vent. It could push some sparks out and you know, Fire hazzard! Not to mention if the pellets smolder, You smoke the house up pretty badly. If you clean out the fuel you could dry cycle the stove. But make sure its all cleaned out.

The oil is something you should try to clean up if the electric stuff is in its path. I would use contact cleaner on any wires that are soaked with oil. The auger gear box has a weep hole where the oil can leak out. It happens over time and you may need to clean it up every now and again. I try to keep the electrical stuff out of the oil.

I still think its the igniter circuit within the board. If you disconnect all the components and the fuse still pops you have your answer. Just make sure the wires from the disconnected items don't make contact with the chassis.

 

[jtakeman]

I see by your links its an insert. I though it was a freestanding unit. My bad!

 

[cabby737]

Okay, well I think you're right.

I just unplugged the Auger motor, put in a new fuse and tried to start it. Before the fuse could pop this time the resistor on the ingnitor circuit melted on the board. I turned it off as soon as it started to spark but obviously the damage is done. This is new, is there any chance I plugged the ignitor wires in backwards which caused this? I don't think I did, and I'm also not sure it matters, there's no +/- on that it's just completing a circuit right?

Well, at the very least at this point I know the board is cooked and I think that's probably it. Bummer, since it's the most expensive part and Christmas season just started. If I didn't have $500 worth of pellets downstairs I might not even bother.

Is there any programming or setup that needs to be done when installing the new board or is it just 4 screws and 2 plugs?

 

[jtakeman]

No programming needed. Its just a plug in deal. Keep us posted on the outcome. I wish you better luck than what you've had so far. While you have the stove out get it all cleaned and tidy. If you need info on other items just post away. I'll try my best to help ya!

 

[cabby737]

Yeah, thanks. I'm pretty bummed, the pellet stove is a part of the house that we were very excited about. Ohwell, such is life I guess. The new board looks completely different with a bunch more fuses (makes sense and would be easier to trouble shoot, looks like 1 per device) and doesn't have the trims that the current one does. It also uses different ac switches for the devices, which is what's crapped out on mine. Given that mine died this way, and it's obsolete, I'm going to guess they figured out they had a problem with these boards somewhere along the way and hopefully the new one is more robust.
Lol, being in new product design myself it always bothers me when I buy (or in this case, sort of inherit) things that are faulty due to design. Why can't people just do their jobs properly?

Well, I'll order the new one and plunk that it when it shows up. Fingers crossed!

Thanks too, I appreciate the help!

-Sarah

 

[imacman]

Sarah, I've sent you a PM

 

[cabby737]

Quick update. I was on the road all week for work and didn't have time to get a board ordered.

So, 1 company lists my board as discontinued and has a new board + daughter board combo for $357
Another company has my board in stock, the old, discontinued one for $215

It looks like my stove was made in 2007. So the board is ~3+ years old. Is it worth saving $140 to buy the potentially defective board that was discontinued? With it being Christmas funds are a little tight so I'd prefer not to spend $$ where I don't need to.

 

[jtakeman]

If your comfy with the older board? I would say go for it. But they upgraded for some reasons of another. I like the added fuses to protect the board. But you could add inline fuses to the old board. I did to my igniter circuit after toasting my board last season. But yours toasted all by itself so adding a fuses may be not so worth it.

Personally I would opt for the newest board. Its just a wee bit more in the long run. But its really up to you and what you can afford.

Keep us posted!

 

[cabby737]

Yeah, that's where I'm leaning too. To have discontinued an item that's only been out for a couple of years and completely redesign it screams to me that it's obviously flawed. The new one has a fuse for each element it looks like, which makes sense, at least then I won't have to guess what is causing the board to cook.

Man I hate electrical problems.

 

[mpcm]

I have an empress fs, which was blowing fuses just a few months ago. There is a thread here about it. In my case I had the auger and the ignitor swapped out under warranty. The auger leaked oil, which soaked the ignitor wires, which are fiber glass and thus soaked up the oil, allowing the shorting that blew the ignitor.

Not sure this helps, but figured I'd at least share that this is what was happening with mine, and since they did the replacement I have been burning without an issue or popped fuse. Also, make sure you have a surge protector on the unit!!

 

[cabby737]

Okay, so the new board finally arrived today! I was hoping it would come sooner but anyways..

I installed it and everything is running smoothly. Except the stove won't light. I bought the new replacement board and have looked at the online manual here http://www.enviro.com/images/manuals-brochures/owners-manuals/C-11913 Instruction Empress FPI Domestic Owner's Manual.pdf

I primed the pot with a handful of pellets and they started to get orange and that was about it. They don't light and the auger doesn't come on. It's been running for about 20 minutes now, I also did the reset after 5 minutes, and nothing happened again. I could put some more pellets in but they didn't really burn, just got orange for a few then went out.

The combustion blower is on, that's about it. What am I missing here? The feed setting is set to 4, the factory setting. There is only 1 cord to the board, I made sure to reconnect everything I disconnected at testing...there just isn't that much there.... but given that the pellets turned orange, and the fan is on means that everything seems to be working, just some setting or something is off...

 

[jtakeman]

Sounds like the vacuum switch isn't closing or not being seen. 1.) Try opening the damper more. 2.)temporarily jumping the switch. 3.) Make sure there is voltage to and from the switch.

If there is no voltage to the switch from the board. report back.

 

[cabby737]

Okay, so the new board finally arrived today! I was hoping it would come sooner but anyways..

I installed it and everything is running smoothly. Except the stove won't light. I bought the new replacement board and have looked at the online manual here http://www.enviro.com/images/manuals-brochures/owners-manuals/C-11913 Instruction Empress FPI Domestic Owner's Manual.pdf

I primed the pot with a handful of pellets and they started to get orange and that was about it. They don't light and the auger doesn't come on. It's been running for about 20 minutes now, I also did the reset after 5 minutes, and nothing happened again. I could put some more pellets in but they didn't really burn, just got orange for a few then went out.

The combustion blower is on, that's about it. What am I missing here? The feed setting is set to 4, the factory setting. There is only 1 cord to the board, I made sure to reconnect everything I disconnected at testing...there just isn't that much there.... but given that the pellets turned orange, and the fan is on means that everything seems to be working, just some setting or something is off...

 

[cabby737]

okay, I don't know why my last post went throught twice.

Anyways, I turned the unit on and checked continuity at the vacuum switch and there was cont. with the hose connected (it beeped) and not when the hose was disconnected. When I reconnected the hose I heard a click from the switch.

I also tried adjusting the damper. however since then I am not seeing the ignitor turn on. The first two times I turned it on the ignitor turned on and the pellets started throwing little sparks and getting orange. The first time there was almost nothing in the pot, and then I read that the auger needed to be primed (didn't have to with old board) the second time I had pellets in there (just enough to cover the bottom of the pot barely) and they got orange. Now I'm seeing nothing. Just the exhaust fan comes on. But when I look at the back of the control board there is a green light flashing on the board that can't be seen from the front. I'm going to pull the board off to see what that light is connected to.

No, no fuses are blown. I am beginning to get discouraged with this thing. I was too cheap to pay someone $150 to install the board thinking that there wasn't that much to it...
I supposed it's possible I put the auger wires on backwards. If I switch the auger motor wires and they are correct (so switching them puts them backwards) what can happen? Is it a DC motor that will just try to turn backwards?

 

[jtakeman]

Auger motor is AC so switching the wires doesn't do anything. Check the high limit switch. Maybe it needs a reset from the other issues you had from the old board. If this is tripped it may stop the auger from coming on.

There may also be jumpers that the board needs set up. Did they include instructions with the new board?

Lastly are you getting power to the auger motor? Maybe the mishap has done other damage. Maybe it toasted something else. There is a handy service manual at Enviro site.

http://www.enviro.com/help/manuals.html#Tech

Click the first tech manual C-12145. There is a lot of trouble shooting info in it. You board should be listed in it. If you scroll down the page I linked to "Archived Tech Manuals" they are older service manuals that also have nice info in them.

 

[cabby737]

Sounds more like its popping the fuse from the igniter or auger circuit. The fan needs to come on first to close the vacuum switch. Once the vacuum switch is closed the control then turns on other items in the start curcuit. If you disconnect the vacuum switch the fan should stay running.

this sounds like what is happening now. when i turn the board on now nothing happens, just the exhaust fan comes on and stay on forever even after i turn the stove off.


Can I jumper the wires to check the switch?

 

[cabby737]

Sounds more like its popping the fuse from the igniter or auger circuit. The fan needs to come on first to close the vacuum switch. Once the vacuum switch is closed the control then turns on other items in the start curcuit. If you disconnect the vacuum switch the fan should stay running.

this sounds like what is happening now. when i turn the board on now nothing happens, just the exhaust fan comes on and stay on forever even after i turn the stove off.


Can I jumper the wires to check the switch?

 

[jtakeman]

Sounds more like its popping the fuse from the igniter or auger circuit. The fan needs to come on first to close the vacuum switch. Once the vacuum switch is closed the control then turns on other items in the start curcuit. If you disconnect the vacuum switch the fan should stay running.

this sounds like what is happening now. when I turn the board on now nothing happens, just the exhaust fan comes on and stay on forever even after i turn the stove off.


Can I jumper the wires to check the switch?

First reset the board. Unplug it for a minute. Plug it back in. If the fan still runs Hold the on button in for 5 seconds. It should reset. If you hit the on button again the fan should stop. If the vac switch had continuety it should be good. Check the high limit switch it may be tripped.

Go to the service manual I linked and do some reading. Take a breath. Please take your time. Rushing will not fix this any faster. Might just cause an oops! I suggest you recheck every component and see if there is something toasted from the mishap.

 

[cabby737]

Yeah, I'm taking my time, mostly because I'm just exhausted and I just want FIRE!!

So, I unplugged it and let the board reset. I then vacuumed out the entire thing even though there wasn't much in there. Then I added some more pellets to the middle of the burn pot where the ignitor is. I turned it back on and they lit. I opened up the damper all the way and tried adjusting it with the fire, but I never really got a fire. The pellets directly in front of the ignitor light up, they did catch and burn, then they smolder out and that's it. The high temp switch red popper is not out. The exhaust and everything is hooked up, I don't think it would even be trying to turn the auger on yet since it can't seem to light a fire for whatever reason...what am I missing?

Weird idea, the house we rented for a short time before this one required priming the pellets with rubbing alcohol and starting them manually, then shutting the door and turning the stove on. Would I need to do something like that to basically jump start the stove? When we turned it on for the first time of the season all we did was dump pellets in and hit the button and it went...but maybe it needs a boost? I don't know, just searching for ideas.

As far as I can tell nothing else is toasted, the fan blower won't come on until a fire is established and neither will the auger according to the tech guide so I need to get it to establish a fire first and that seems to be my problem.

 

[cabby737]

Ahh, finally something. The board is flashing light #3 saying the exhaust sensor has been tripped. This one doesn't have a button like the other one, how do I reset it?
Probably stemming from the same problem, it didn't detect a fire so the exhaust switch tripped turning everything off.