EPA rules?

[FanMan]

This is probably a dumb question, but I searched the forums and the wiki and except for this wiki article about the history of the regulations I didn't find much:

I understand, more or less, the technical difference between EPA (cat and non cat) and non EPA stoves, but not about how the rules are applied. There are still a lot of basic old fashioned new stoves (boxwood stoves no doubt made in China and sold by outfits like Northern Tool) for sale that are certainly not EPA stoves... are the rules simply not enforced? As I understand it you can't make or sell a new non EPA stove, but it's apparently OK to install one? Is it local codes that decide? Or am I missing something?

Mainly curiosity at this point as I'm not planning on anything new right now; I have an old glass front smoker that was in my cabin's living room when I moved in and a much older coal stove that I installed in the bedroom last summer.

 

[BrotherBart]

There is a hole in the EPA reg that one company, Vogelzang, drove through like a train. When the regs were being formulated it was brought up that no open fireplace on the planet would be compliant. Ain't no way that anybody is going to outlaw fireplaces and get re-elected. So the reg allowed anything that had more than a 35:1 air fuel ratio. It also allows anybody that builds less than 50 stoves a year a loophole. Hi wkpoor and your damned Elm. :lol:

So some companies, VZ and up until this year Englander, made stoves that won't let you close down the air to less than 35:1. Don't have to pay twenty grand to prove the stove is clean burning. Just certify to the EPA that it isn't.

Go figure. The next pending regs are gonna stop it.

 

[dafattkidd]

I don't know all the specifics, and I'm sure someone will chime in who does, but as far as I know it is still legal to manufacture, buy and sell non EPA certified stoves in the US. Some states, and local governments have stricter rules that restrict non EPA stoves.

 

[pen]

I don't know all the specifics, and I'm sure someone will chime in who does, but as far as I know it is still legal to manufacture, buy and sell non EPA certified stoves in the US. Some states, and local governments have stricter rules that restrict non EPA stoves.

and will not allow non-epa compliant stoves from being legal new installations.

To boot, you also have to work w/ insurance companies. Many won't let you run one and be complaint w/ their homeowner policies w/out it having a UL tag.

pen

 

[wkpoor]

I heard someone say if you refer to your appliance as a wood furnace it does not have to comply. I didn't check that one out for myself so I'm just throwing it out there. And yes the under 50 thing is a bit ambiguous too. Steve won't say how many he actually sells so no one can pin him down on the reg.

 

[fossil]

...Is it local codes that decide?...

Pretty much. "EPA Exempt" stoves are sold quite legally...but there are a bunch of places where installation of such a stove is not legal. I live in one of those places.

...coal stove that I installed in the bedroom last summer.

Well, that brings up a whole other code-related question. Depending on how the Mechanical Code reads for where you live, that may or may not be an acceptable installation. In many cases, installing a solid fuel-burning appliance in a sleeping area is strictly verboten. Rick

 

[wkpoor]

To boot, you also have to work w/ insurance companies. Many won’t let you run one and be complaint w/ their homeowner policies w/out it having a UL tag.

I would venture to say a large majority of people heating with wood in my area are doing so with unlisted stoves they have had in their homes for yrs. I think the chimneys is insurance providers should focus there efforts. My guess is alot of UL listed EPA approved stoves are hooked up to crumbling chimneys.

 

[pen]

To boot, you also have to work w/ insurance companies. Many won’t let you run one and be complaint w/ their homeowner policies w/out it having a UL tag.

I would venture to say a large majority of people heating with wood in my area are doing so with unlisted stoves they have had in their homes for yrs. I think the chimneys is insurance providers should focus there efforts. My guess is alot of UL listed EPA approved stoves are hooked up to crumbling chimneys.

I don't disagree with that idea,,,,,,

However, I can tell you what I went through (nobody wanted to insure me) last time I tried finding a new homeowners insurance company and was still operating a pre-UL stove on a reasonable chimney and having even the most extreme clearance to combustibles (36 inches) met (about 5 years ago). Traveler's was the only company I could find that would do it. I can't remember the number, but I went through all major companies in use in my area before finding them.

I'll also add that I live in a rural area w/ no local codes regarding wood stoves.

I also have a cabin in an even more rural area, and with many insurance companies not wanting to touch policies involving "part time use" dwellings, we can't find a new insurance company w/out changing out the stoves we have.

Take it for what it is.

pen

 

[FanMan]

Hmmm, so making it is one thing and installing it is another... which could also be an issue for people buying restored antique stoves from any of the numerous outfits in that business.

Didn't I also see an exemption for any cook stoves? So all a manufacturer has to do is to put a burner plate or two on top (like many small boxwood stoves) and it's legal?

 

[DanCorcoran]

Unless you are planning to go into the business of building stoves, why worry? The deciding factor is what your local municipality will allow to be installed. If you want a clean-burning, fuel-efficient stove, get one that's EPA approved.

 

[kettensäge]

To boot, you also have to work w/ insurance companies. Many won’t let you run one and be complaint w/ their homeowner policies w/out it having a UL tag.

I would venture to say a large majority of people heating with wood in my area are doing so with unlisted stoves they have had in their homes for yrs. I think the chimneys is insurance providers should focus there efforts. My guess is alot of UL listed EPA approved stoves are hooked up to crumbling chimneys.

I don't disagree with that idea,,,,,,

However, I can tell you what I went through (nobody wanted to insure me) last time I tried finding a new homeowners insurance company and was still operating a pre-UL stove on a reasonable chimney and having even the most extreme clearance to combustibles (36 inches) met (about 5 years ago). Traveler's was the only company I could find that would do it. I can't remember the number, but I went through all major companies in use in my area before finding them.

I'll also add that I live in a rural area w/ no local codes regarding wood stoves.

I also have a cabin in an even more rural area, and with many insurance companies not wanting to touch policies involving "part time use" dwellings, we can't find a new insurance company w/out changing out the stoves we have.

Take it for what it is.

pen

My experience's were a little different.
I bought my house in 2002, My pre epa insert was already installed. We had Nationwide at the time on the previous property and all the vehicles. The agent came and inspected the property and wrote the policy, no problems.
A few years ago we swithched to Penn National. I had to answer a questionaire about the insert and it's details, (model year, EPA sticker attached-NO, clearances, chimney type and height, etc.). They wanted pics which I sent, got the policy at a huge savings/ better coverage compared to Nationwide. I too live in a rural area , no county or municipal regs, more of my neighbors heat with wood than those who don't.

 

[SmokingAndPoking]

The exemptions are as follows:

Any unit with a demonstrated A/F ratio greater than 35:1
Any unit with a demonstrated minimum burn rate higher than 11 lb/hr
Any unit that weights more than 1760 lbs.
Any unit with a firebox greater than 20 cu ft
A wood heater used for research and development that is never offered for sale or sold is exempt (no more than 50 wood heaters manufactured per model line may be exempted for this purpose)
Coal only heaters
Open masonry fireplaces constructed on site
Boilers
Furnaces
Cookstoves (must have an oven greater than 1 cu. ft.)



You'll note that there is no exemption for folks who SELL less than 50 units per year.

 

[joecool85]

Very interesting. From what I understand there are new EPA regs that were supposed to be released last month, not sure if they ever were though as I haven't been able to track them down. My guess is they will take care of many of those loop holes.

 

[FanMan]

Unless you are planning to go into the business of building stoves, why worry? The deciding factor is what your local municipality will allow to be installed. If you want a clean-burning, fuel-efficient stove, get one that's EPA approved.

Curiosity, mainly... but also nice to know the rules if I come across an interesting and/or cheap old stove. I have to get a permit to install a gas stove next week and I intend to ask about the local wood stove rules while I'm there (for future reference). It's always good to go in knowing what I'm talking about.

 

[SmokingAndPoking]

Very interesting. From what I understand there are new EPA regs that were supposed to be released last month, not sure if they ever were though as I haven't been able to track them down. My guess is they will take care of many of those loop holes.

The EPA is working to establish the NSPS (New Source Performance Standards). We have no yet been notified that the regulations are finalized or when they will be promulgated. From the working groups I was on though, the EPA is working to close the majority of the loopholes.

 

[BrotherBart]

You'll note that there is no exemption for folks who SELL less than 50 units per year.

Interesting. I got the 50 a year number from something I read a few years ago. Come to think of it though it wouldn't make much sense. Since testing info has to be supplied to the EPA to get on the exempt list but there is no requirement that a stove be on the exempt list. Localities being the ones that require or do not require stoves to be compliant.

Thanks for pointing that out. I will erase the fifty thing from memory. At this age a lot of erasing takes place daily anyway.

 

[SmokingAndPoking]

No problem BB. I had to check myself to see if it was in there. There are some weird exemptions and I thought the 50 unit per year thing sounded as reasonable as a stove that weights 1760 lbs!

 

[DanCorcoran]

No problem BB. I had to check myself to see if it was in there. There are some weird exemptions and I thought the 50 unit per year thing sounded as reasonable as a stove that weights 1760 lbs!

The 1760 lbs is just a conversion from the much rounder 800 kilograms (heaven knows why they picked 800 kg., though).

 

[joecool85]

No problem BB. I had to check myself to see if it was in there. There are some weird exemptions and I thought the 50 unit per year thing sounded as reasonable as a stove that weights 1760 lbs!

The 1760 lbs is just a conversion from the much rounder 800 kilograms (heaven knows why they picked 800 kg., though).

Some sort of factory or municipal wood burning appliance?