Fine Tuning an Econoburn?

[pybyr]

After reading the "Fine tuning EKO" thread, I am left wondering whether anyone else with an Econoburn (like I have) has tried applying similar techniques to adjust the primary and secondary air for optimum gasification/ secondary burn--

-- or even if you have not tried it, I welcome any suggestions on where and how to start, based on the Econoburn's design (which appears to be a cousin to the EKO)

Thanks

 

[Duetech]

Hi Trevor,
I really wondered if this would come up because I did not know if there were adjustments that could be manipulated on any other make of gasifier (thought there should be but didn't know). The principals of gasification are laws of physics that apply regardless of the brand name but the flexibility has to be built in. Now that I know of this forum I would make tweakability one of the requirements for purchase in a gasifier or OWB.

 

[pybyr]

Hi Trevor,
I really wondered if this would come up because I did not know if there were adjustments that could be manipulated on any other make of gasifier (thought there should be but didn't know). The principals of gasification are laws of physics that apply regardless of the brand name but the flexibility has to be built in. Now that I know of this forum I would make tweakability one of the requirements for purchase in a gasifier or OWB.

there are definitely some allen bolts just above the lower door, which I presume to be secondary air adjustments;

I recall that the guy that I got mine from explained to me that there was another setting for adjusting the primary air- just not recalling where- I should try to give him a call later

 

[NNYorker]

Hi Trevor,
I really wondered if this would come up because I did not know if there were adjustments that could be manipulated on any other make of gasifier (thought there should be but didn't know). The principals of gasification are laws of physics that apply regardless of the brand name but the flexibility has to be built in. Now that I know of this forum I would make tweakability one of the requirements for purchase in a gasifier or OWB.

there are definitely some allen bolts just above the lower door, which I presume to be secondary air adjustments;

I recall that the guy that I got mine from explained to me that there was another setting for adjusting the primary air- just not recalling where- I should try to give him a call later

Talked to Dale at the factory --my 100-- primary air, only control is the fan adjustment. Secondary air is controlled by the threaded rod with the nut locking it in place--both of these are above the allen heads.

I have not taken off this panel YET to tackle secondary adjustment. I would love to be able to slow my fan speed down to experiment--EKO feature on new controller models. Seems it would help with that higher moisture content wood. The fan will ramp up/down as it reaches set temp. like it has the ability of variable speeds. Your 150 operate the same? When mine reaches set temp. fan sounds like it is still running at an idle speed. Dale told me the squirrel cage should not be spinning on the fan. I see on the wiring diagram for the 150 the only difference appears to be a capacitor???

Do you have the "new" refractory--angled trough shape--ala EKO--vs mine with the U shape? Looking to get the new refractory from my seller.

Allright Econoburn gassers---Let's hear from you.

 

[pybyr]

Hi Trevor,
I really wondered if this would come up because I did not know if there were adjustments that could be manipulated on any other make of gasifier (thought there should be but didn't know). The principals of gasification are laws of physics that apply regardless of the brand name but the flexibility has to be built in. Now that I know of this forum I would make tweakability one of the requirements for purchase in a gasifier or OWB.

there are definitely some allen bolts just above the lower door, which I presume to be secondary air adjustments;

I recall that the guy that I got mine from explained to me that there was another setting for adjusting the primary air- just not recalling where- I should try to give him a call later

Talked to Dale at the factory --my 100-- primary air, only control is the fan adjustment. Secondary air is controlled by the threaded rod with the nut locking it in place--both of these are above the allen heads.

I have not taken off this panel YET to tackle secondary adjustment. I would love to be able to slow my fan speed down to experiment--EKO feature on new controller models. Seems it would help with that higher moisture content wood. The fan will ramp up/down as it reaches set temp. like it has the ability of variable speeds. Your 150 operate the same? When mine reaches set temp. fan sounds like it is still running at an idle speed. Dale told me the squirrel cage should not be spinning on the fan. I see on the wiring diagram for the 150 the only difference appears to be a capacitor???

Do you have the "new" refractory--angled trough shape--ala EKO--vs mine with the U shape? Looking to get the new refractory from my seller.

Allright Econoburn gassers---Let's hear from you.

on my EBW-150, built early August, the lower refractory "target" is actually flat in upper profile, although sloping/ angled towards the front of the unit

my fan has two speeds- full bore, when the PLC is aiming to raise the water jacket temperature, and a sort of idle where it keeps gasification going but at a slower intensity

anecdotal/ instinctual observations to date are that:

(1) the full bore, high blower speed, air flow may be too much, in that it seems to sometimes actually extinguish gasification, or blow the heat through the fire tubes faster than it can be extracted, especially in the early phases of a burn, and

(2) the slow fan setting, intended to maintain gasification but slow the heat delivery down, may also be too much for that purpose, in that the boiler will climb in temperature as the fan is on low speed unless the load is pulling heavily from it

I am NOT trying to slam the product- which I am very happy with; just noting some parameters that seem to suggest opportunities for even greater efficiency and convenience.

 

[willworkforwood]

I'm glad to see this thread show up - I've been on my own on this up until now.
My 150 was built on 9/1 and I've been using it since Nov 10. We burn a continuous fire with no storage. I try to run small fires and loads whenever possible - only fully load at night. At first the boiler was running very hot and the fan was on a lot with the original high aquastat setting of 210. I've moved it down in stages, and now have it set at 192. This has made a huge difference, and the boiler now is generally always in a good range (side gauge 185-195). The fan shuts off more frequently and I get much more idle than before. Naturally wood usage is better also. I also insulated most of the pipes in the basement, and now the heat is going where it belongs. I agree with all the comments on wanting fan speed adjustments, but right now I've got the thing in good balance, and don't want to mess it up - I'll poke some more in the Spring when a mistake is not such a big deal.
Trevor, I agree with your #1 - the high fan speed doesn't seem to be effective, and for me only comes on when I've let the fire get too small. Perhaps it can get a fire going faster than low speed, but I need a good starter fire going first, otherwise high speed will put it out.
I'm new to Gasifiers, and might not be understanding what you mean in #2. My impression is that the low speed fan coming on is triggered by hitting the low temp, and that it's supposed to be ending the idle and bringing up the boiler temp again. What I just described is the way my 150 is currently operating, and this seems to be working well. Temp drops during idle, low fan comes on, temp goes up to around the high aquastat setting, fan shuts off. The heat output is consistent, and wood consumption is decent. Let me know if I am missing your point on this.

 

[NNYorker]

I'm glad to see this thread show up - I've been on my own on this up until now.
My 150 was built on 9/1 and I've been using it since Nov 10. We burn a continuous fire with no storage. I try to run small fires and loads whenever possible - only fully load at night. At first the boiler was running very hot and the fan was on a lot with the original high aquastat setting of 210. I've moved it down in stages, and now have it set at 192. This has made a huge difference, and the boiler now is generally always in a good range (side gauge 185-195). The fan shuts off more frequently and I get much more idle than before. Naturally wood usage is better also. I also insulated most of the pipes in the basement, and now the heat is going where it belongs. I agree with all the comments on wanting fan speed adjustments, but right now I've got the thing in good balance, and don't want to mess it up - I'll poke some more in the Spring when a mistake is not such a big deal.
Trevor, I agree with your #1 - the high fan speed doesn't seem to be effective, and for me only comes on when I've let the fire get too small. Perhaps it can get a fire going faster than low speed, but I need a good starter fire going first, otherwise high speed will put it out.
I'm new to Gasifiers, and might not be understanding what you mean in #2. My impression is that the low speed fan coming on is triggered by hitting the low temp, and that it's supposed to be ending the idle and bringing up the boiler temp again. What I just described is the way my 150 is currently operating, and this seems to be working well. Temp drops during idle, low fan comes on, temp goes up to around the high aquastat setting, fan shuts off. The heat output is consistent, and wood consumption is decent. Let me know if I am missing your point on this.

Yes,that is the answer I'm looking for concerning #2--my 100 fan goes full bore until high set temp. is reached then it goes to an idle speed/barely running until the temp. drops to the differential----same cycle again--never does it go to a "low" speed. My unit was built in 2007--don't know if the newer 100's have this feature or not. I believe the high speed fan is not needed most of the time to bring the boiler up to temp.

Wonder if that would be a plug in change on the controller or a wire harness issue? Will be calling Dale again......

 

[Piker]

the fans on the EBW100's have only an on and off setting ... no high fire/low fire like the 150, 200 and 300. The reason for that is the blower itself is not designed to be run by a reistat type control on the 100's.

Optimal factory setting on the secondary air screws is somewhere between 2 and 3 turns out on all size Econoburns. This may or may not change depending on whether you have tinkered with the primary air adjustment on the blower itself. The factory settings have been extensively tested to produce the best all-around performance of the boilers in varied settings. That is not to say that there aren't specific circumstances where individuals can increase efficiency a few points here and there... but at 90% + , there's not a ton of room for improvement.

In my opinion as a user (EBW200) the high fire setting on the blower definitely puts out more heat than the low fire setting, however, it's not proportional with regard to fan speed. Low fire fan setting is about 20% that of high fire, but by my estimates, output probably only drops by 1/3 or so. I do know that the intertek reports done on the EBW150 show a max output of 163,000 Btu's/hr using white oak blocks at 25% moisture content... presumably under ideal conditions. I am unsure what the low fire setting produced.

You will notice in high fire that the torch in the combustion chamber can sometimes be a tight and relatively short flame compared to low fire. This does not necessarily mean that it's less efficient... just the nature of the flame under greater pressure.


cheers

 

[Duetech]

I'm glad to see this thread show up - I've been on my own on this up until now.
My 150 was built on 9/1 and I've been using it since Nov 10. We burn a continuous fire with no storage. I try to run small fires and loads whenever possible - only fully load at night. At first the boiler was running very hot and the fan was on a lot with the original high aquastat setting of 210. I've moved it down in stages, and now have it set at 192. This has made a huge difference, and the boiler now is generally always in a good range (side gauge 185-195). The fan shuts off more frequently and I get much more idle than before. Naturally wood usage is better also. I also insulated most of the pipes in the basement, and now the heat is going where it belongs. I agree with all the comments on wanting fan speed adjustments, but right now I've got the thing in good balance, and don't want to mess it up - I'll poke some more in the Spring when a mistake is not such a big deal.
Trevor, I agree with your #1 - the high fan speed doesn't seem to be effective, and for me only comes on when I've let the fire get too small. Perhaps it can get a fire going faster than low speed, but I need a good starter fire going first, otherwise high speed will put it out.
I'm new to Gasifiers, and might not be understanding what you mean in #2. My impression is that the low speed fan coming on is triggered by hitting the low temp, and that it's supposed to be ending the idle and bringing up the boiler temp again. What I just described is the way my 150 is currently operating, and this seems to be working well. Temp drops during idle, low fan comes on, temp goes up to around the high aquastat setting, fan shuts off. The heat output is consistent, and wood consumption is decent. Let me know if I am missing your point on this.

Yes,that is the answer I'm looking for concerning #2--my 100 fan goes full bore until high set temp. is reached then it goes to an idle speed/barely running until the temp. drops to the differential----same cycle again--never does it go to a "low" speed. My unit was built in 2007--don't know if the newer 100's have this feature or not. I believe the high speed fan is not needed most of the time to bring the boiler up to temp.

Wonder if that would be a plug in change on the controller or a wire harness issue? Will be calling Dale again......

What about a smaller opening for the fan shroud? Something that reduces the amount of air that the fan can take in (10-50%)? I've never seen an EB/W but since I have the older EKO controller I have to reduce the fan opening and if you could do that you might find the moderation you are looking for.

 

[NNYorker]

the fans on the EBW100's have only an on and off setting ... no high fire/low fire like the 150, 200 and 300. The reason for that is the blower itself is not designed to be run by a reistat type control on the 100's.

Optimal factory setting on the secondary air screws is somewhere between 2 and 3 turns out on all size Econoburns. This may or may not change depending on whether you have tinkered with the primary air adjustment on the blower itself. The factory settings have been extensively tested to produce the best all-around performance of the boilers in varied settings. That is not to say that there aren't specific circumstances where individuals can increase efficiency a few points here and there... but at 90% + , there's not a ton of room for improvement.

In my opinion as a user (EBW200) the high fire setting on the blower definitely puts out more heat than the low fire setting, however, it's not proportional with regard to fan speed. Low fire fan setting is about 20% that of high fire, but by my estimates, output probably only drops by 1/3 or so. I do know that the intertek reports done on the EBW150 show a max output of 163,000 Btu's/hr using white oak blocks at 25% moisture content... presumably under ideal conditions. I am unsure what the low fire setting produced.

You will notice in high fire that the torch in the combustion chamber can sometimes be a tight and relatively short flame compared to low fire. This does not necessarily mean that it's less efficient... just the nature of the flame under greater pressure.

I forgot to mention the biggest reason for talking about the fan operation---it doesn't shut off. I've got high fire and an idle 24/7--blower doesn't stop. My unit was a June 2007 build. No black box for elect. connections/no yellow jumper wire--different wire harness per Dale. Dale is calling me tomorrow.

Would a 150 blower be a plug in swap ???


cheers

 

[kgryder]

I've got an EBW 100 and I'm the type that likes to "adjust" things. But I can't imagine me being able to get my system to burn any better so I haven't messed with it.
I'm still adjusting my controls program but the boiler runs great.

 

[Piker]

The bottom line is you can chase primary and secondary air settings all day long, to find that tomorrow a different setting might be a little better. I don't believe that there is any one single setting that can offer the highest efficiency for all situations. Depending on what species of wood you are burning, what the wood's moisture content is, the relative humidity, what size your firewood is, how full the firebox is, etc etc etc... the settings required to produce maximum efficiency will change slightly. Alternative Fuel Boilers has invested a great deal of time in research and developement of their current product to make sure their boilers performance is well rounded to accomodate the variables I mentioned.

That having been said... tinkering with the settings as a hobby is pretty enjoyable for those with the time and inclination to do it. Just remember where factory settings are so that if you get to far away from them you can start over.

cheers.

 

[willworkforwood]

From my own experience, I think Piker has this nailed. The 150 fan may not be perfect at a given moment in time, but over the course of a typical burn it seems to do a consistently good job of adjusting the fire. One thing that's been working well for me is trying to use a loading pattern and amount of wood that matches the upcoming heating needs. Unless its around 10 or lower; at night (when the t stats are being set down), I've been laying one row of small splits on the bottom, then alternate 4 short thick ones up against the side to make a V-shaped bridge, and then loading fully on top of the V and up the firebox. This has the effect of delaying the burn during the time when there's not going to be much call for heat. The V is not big enough to cause a fire-out bridge, just enough to hold things back for an hour or so. But in the morning there will be multiple calls for heat from 2 t stats going up and DHW. So at least 15 minutes before that, I make sure that the boiler is up to 195+, with good burning stuff on the bottom. Then the big demand doesn't cause the boiler to need to recover from getting too low. During the day, unless we're going to be out for a while, we load small amounts, depending on the outdoor temp - typically 4-6 smallish splits. My 150 and wood are in the cellar, so for you outdoor folks, I realize this is not so easy or convenient. Also, I'm always working from good coals, which makes what I described a lot easier. Just another thing to experiment with, for those without storage and not completely happy with your boiler.

 

[pybyr]

Thanks everyone- here's an update from here- I'll be delighted if I can keep the fiddling-around-factor to a minimum on fan adjustments.

I called Dale F at Econoburn today, and described to him what I've been experiencing of how the full fan seems to almost hit the fire too hard, overpower the fire, and knock it down especially in early stages of the burn, but then the "low" still seems to cause the temp to run up faster than needed in later stages of the burn, when I have a lot of coals.

Dale suggested that I try closing the shutter on the main blower intake so that the openings are about an inch at the perimeter of the pie slice openings (which seems to be about 1/3 open (they turned out to be wide open the the maximum opening as delivered). I just did that, and lit it off, and the temperature seems to be climbing faster on the high fan, early in the burn, than with the old setting. It'll be interesting if this dial-back of the main air intake also lets it do a more gradual burn later in the burn, without tending (as it has) to swing so high that the aquastat has to cut the blower.

 

[pybyr]

And the preliminary verdict is, at least for now (admitting that I am a newbie to actually running a gasifier) (and that my wood varies in its dryness) that the original factory settings on the primary air intake work as well or better than any of the other settings I've tried, during the overall course of a burn.

Other settings seem to make a wider and blue-er secondary jet during some but not all parts of the burn, but then really don't work as well during other phases of the burn.

The OEM setting seems to work well during a wide range of woods and phases of burns.

It's a rather interesting revelation that there are so many different variables with different woods and during different phases from light off to initial gasification to transition to coals.

If I had oodles of time and $$$ (that I don't) it would be really interesting to do a side by side, with same batches of wood, with the simple gassers and a Froling to see how much of a difference the Froling's aimed-for "real time optimization of burn" makes in net heat output per pound of comparable wood. I have to admit, too, that as much as I admire the Froling (heck, I have some Teutonic engineer types back in my family tree) I also like the bulletproof simplicity of the "midi-tech" units like my Econoburn