Fireplace problem & questions.....

[mtj53]

Hi all, This is my 1st post, & I'm sure looking forward to learning from everyone elses experiences. I'm sure sorry it will be long, not the best at explaining, but I'll try to cover everything. I wish I'd found out about sites like this long ago! What got me here: 20 years ago I built a house, I literally built it around my fireplace, high ceilings, loft area, ceiling fans, fairly open floorplan. I was told by the architect that If I kept my fireplace going, I most likely wouldn't have to touch the thermostadt! Wow, was he ever wrong. It never worked well from day one, every few years I tried something new, but finally gave up, put insulation over it and it has sat idle for years. I was thinking of installing an OWB this summer, but someone on another forum asked me, why not put in a fireplace insert? I confess, I know nothing, or at least not near enough about any of this. I was always under the impression an insert was a prefab unit that fit inside a "scratchbuilt fireplace" made out of just brick/chimney. Boy don't I feel stupid now. Before I start bothering you all about an insert though, I ned to solve my original problem.
Our fireplace, whenever we would light it, would not draft properly. There was a few occasions where it would work, but never failed, the house would always end up smoky as all get out. I am pretty sure we lost MUCH more heat than we ever gained. There were times you couldn't think of starting a fire because all the smoke poured out of it into the house. We tried everything. Fireplace is a majestic 42 from 1990. Has an outside air vent. We tried it with doors open, vent shut, and doors shut vent open, doors open vent open. Outside vent on and off in all circumstances. Was told the house is too "tight", I always knew that was not the problem, but we tried fireplace with open house windows as well. Tried it with windows cracked and open all the way. We tried "warming the chimney" first with a few newspapers lit, then light the fire, but that never worked. We tried a wind directional cap, that never worked. A couple yrs ago, we had a "cap surround" put on that was supposed to block any wind from interfering. never worked. We also added 3 foot to the chimney but it never worked. We were told we can't burn wood, that a gas log would work. Installed one of those and the pilot light won't even stay lit! Nope, it doesn't have a bad thermocoupler, we tried 3-4 times to change that to no effect. It really isn't any windier here than anywhere else I have been. I would absolutely love to get this figured out, because I'd very much like to install a fireplace insert, but I think this is the place to start.
Some details, I think we have 8" double lined? stainless chimney....we originally were above & beyond the 10/2 rule, but we even added 3 feet to that. probably have upwards of 22-24 foot chimney I'd guess now. I think we are 6-7 foot above the nearest point within 10 feet. For reference purposes, I will post a photo of our chimney below.
Every time I go in to a fireplace store anymore I don't feel I can trust these guys. I've been told the chimney was too small, too big, too short, too tall, been told it wasn't a good fireplace to start with yet at the time it was top of the line, told it's too windy in my area, been told "sometimes it just doesn't work out". Been led to believe trying several things would fix it but none ever have. Now, with heating costs soaring I would like to do something. Putting an OWB in is an option, but I sometimes travel and don't want my wife to have to babysit that, even putting an add on wood furnace is an option, but I don't want to carry 8 plus cords of wood through the house and down a flight of steps every year, or have a ton of it piled in the basement. ....quite honestly, it isn't just the cost of LP gas. I'd plain and simple like to make the house more comfortable, especially the main lioving area where the fireplace is, my wife loves to have a fire going for the comfort and the looks, and I've never had a problem I couldn't solve, except this one. It has me baffled! Would anyone have any suggestions for me?
Related question, the one thing I have not ruled out, is there such a thing as a fireplace that simply doesn't work? The only thing I have not tried is literally getting rid of this fireplace. If that's what it takes, I'll do it. masonary work, no big deal at all, I can do that. I have decided to somehow or another get this fireplace problem solved, so installing an OWB or furnace add on isn't an option right now. Thank you so much inadvance for reading through all of this! Looking forward to any idea's or suggestions....Mark

 

[LeonMSPT]

Chimney like that, smoke shouldn't be coming back into the house. You should be having a hard time lighting a fire in the thing because of the draft.

On the fireplace not working... My initial guess would be a linkage or connector is screwed up and the damper isn't opening fully. But a fireplace is a pretty looking, heat sucking, vacuum cleaner, that generally speaking isn't worth the gunpowder it would take to blow it anywhere, let alone anyplace else.

Any "Zero Clearance" insert should fit in that and work... specifics are not within my knowledge as I've never actually done one of those. I have done inserts with full liners in three masonry fireplaces. Different cat, but close...

Good luck to you. Shop well, buy right, and be careful.

Like your contractor telling you the fireplace will heat the house... bet you'd like to have that in writing.

 

[Jimbob]

Here's a couple of links to Zero Clearance fireplaces:

http://www.flame-intl.com/product.aspx?CategoId=19&Id=447

(broken link removed to http://www.napoleonfireplaces.com/Fireplaces/Fireplaces_wood/nz3000.html)

And this one is made to go into an existing ZC fireplace:

(broken link removed to http://www.countryflame.com/model02.php)

 

[mtj53]

Thank you guys for the reply, but shouldn't I find out what's going on with this before I go out and spend the money on an insert? Or are you guys sure the problem also is in the current fireplace and that an insert would take care of the problem? The damper has always opened/closed fine, I'm thinking there isn't much could go wrong with that or am I missing something?
Mark

 

[LeonMSPT]

Hard to tell from here...

Usually, smoke and poor draft indicates a poor situation with regard to chimney height or surrounding trees/architecture, or sometimes the house is "too tight". It does take a massive airflow in order to operate a fireplace properly.

Maybe have someone come out and run a camera up the existing chimney, make a recommendation for "liner/insert" install, and get an estimate? Were you planning a self-install, or were you going to hire it out?

You obviously know the handle goes back and forth the way it's supposed to. Tough to say whether that accurately reflects what is happening on the other end of the handle without looking in there while the handle is being moved... wouldn't be the first time something didn't work the way it's supposed to.

Be a good idea to have the entire system checked once more, and seek recommendation from a "qualified" installer. Maybe an estimate as well. Might decide based on the estimate it's more reasonable to let them do it.

If you do it, and it doesn't work... well, you'll know who to go to to get it fixed right, he's in the mirror. On the other hand, if they do it and your house burns down, they have insurance for that.

Thank you guys for the reply, but shouldn't I find out what's going on with this before I go out and spend the money on an insert? Or are you guys sure the problem also is in the current fireplace and that an insert would take care of the problem? The damper has always opened/closed fine, I'm thinking there isn't much could go wrong with that or am I missing something?
Mark

 

[LeonMSPT]

Don't feel stupid now... You're asking questions and gathering information. Smart people do that, not stupid people.

 

[mtj53]

I think that's the part that has been difficult for me to accept. I have had folks come take a look at it. These are guys that do this for a living. I'm a huge believer in hiring a professional to do something he's the best in. Yet this one has stumped them all. In the beginning, when I went back to tell the business of this problem, they told me they have never heard of it before. OK, skip ahead several years, about 2-3 yrs ago when they installed the "cap" around the cap, when I first walked in the door, the guy who originally sold this fireplace to me right away said "I know what you're here for". He proceded to tell me that there were a few other cases like mine, and that's when he said they had figured it out, and then he arranged to have his guys put the wind block cap around my original chimney cap.
I guess I was hoping they were all just not that interested in helping me fix it & I could get to the bottom of the problem. The damper is definitely working right, it's easy to access and you can lean into the fireplace and feel it opening and closing while turning the handle with your other hand. Also have put on safety glasses and watched it opening and shutting. In fact, the chimney is as clean now as the day it was installed. When the last gentleman stopped out (a couple yrs ago) and when he had the cap off, we took a look and saw how nice it was yet. If I put an insert in, I wouldn't try that myself. I would hire that done and hopefully I'll get someone who can get it all figured out. I do a lot with older tractors, and once when talking with an older gentleman about a tractor, I brought this all up to him. He thought about it for awhile and he told me the best way to get a good draft was to have a 6" pipe out of the stove or fireplace, with a larger diameter chimney. Is there any truth to that? It's been years, but I am pretty sure that is what he told me.
I would have a couple other questions. When I have seen other posts, whenever anyone is talking about installing an insert, a liner is always brought up. Can I ask why a new liner is installed with an insert? Is that to get a good seal between the new insert all the way up?
I will get someone to come out, measure this up and give me an estimate. I'll ask a lot of questions while they're here! I always do, probably drives folks crazy. I used to just leave folks do what they do best but anymore I ask a lot of questions and I honestly think that keeps them on their toes. Can you guys give me idea's of what the good and bad points are to a woodstove insert? What to look for, what to avoid? The more informed I can be when I go in, the more chance there will be that Ido this right this time around. Incidentally I might add, I'm not 100% new to this. For years I had a woodstove in my garage and it worked absolutely beautiful! Approximately 10 years ago my insurance company said it had to go or they'd drop me. I removed it, but I have always wished I'd of dropped the insurance company instead. One last question--approximately how much wood does a good wood insert go through in a years time? Just curious on that one. Thank you again for the help...
Mark

 

[LeonMSPT]

1. With the chimney height you have there, and it appears relatively "open" from a perspective of overhanging trees and structures.

You should have little trouble with draft in an insert situation. The best draft will come from a liner the size of the "boot" that takes the liner from the insert. If the insert has an 8 inch boot (most common in larger inserts), an 8 inch liner. If the insert has a 6 inch boot, a six inch liner. All the way to the top of the chimney.

Opinions can vary, for good reason, on "block off plates" and insulation above the insert. Some claim miraculous results with them, and some say, "Doesn't make much difference." I think it depends more on the situation. The mandatory part is a positive and definite seal at the top of the chimney flu between the liner and the existing chimney flu.

With your flu, already in place. I believe it is probably already insulated and likely fairly tight. A good seal at the top would likely do the job for you. The mandatory thing is to have no draft or air movement around the chimney liner. My experience with prefab fireplaces is limited. I never had a great impression of open fireplaces in the first place. Heat hogs generally... not producing as much as they cost in air exchange because of the air sucked in past the fire to move the smoke out and not allow any to come back into the house.

Problem with a smaller diameter pipe, feeding into a larger flu area, is reduced stack velocity and "stalling" of the flu gasses where the two meet and the rest of the way. Heat loss is a consideration with regard to the gasses as well. A larger area is going to tend to cool smoke and allow condensation, which causes creosote formation and deposition. The trick is to have a fairly constant movement of the smoke up the chimney liner, to the top. Trying to maintain hot temperatures as far up the pipe as you can. This allows moisture in the form of steam, from the wood, to continue out of the liner instead of being condensed and deposited on the walls.

The liner is important for reasons of good draft, and ease of cleaning. Some have installed inserts with a pipe to the "damper area" and installed the positive sealing block off plate there. This necessitates removing the insert to clean the chimney... imagine all the work of installing the insert having to be undone, the insert removed, chimney cleaned, and then reinstalled... (not so good, trust me). Lined from the top of the chimney to the insert, with a positive seal, the chimney can sometimes even be cleaned from inside the insert... shove the brush and flexible rods right up the chimney to the top, and pull it out... done. Vacuum or shovel the refuse and light a fire...

Fireplace inserts throw alot of heat, and with a blower, are capable of driving most people out of the house if fired properly. They don't generate much creosote if fired properly either, as the temperatures are simply high enough that most of the volatiles are burned off in the insert or the first few feet of pipe above it. I have a twenty plus year old VC 0046 in my living room with a liner to the top of the chimney. This is what I got out of it last week after a season and a half of burning.

Recommend at least annual chimney cleaning in any wood burning stove or insert. Not advisable to go longer than that. Some get away with it, and some don't. When they don't, it can be very dangerous and expensive. I know the beast in my living room and was comfortable with it until a couple of weeks ago. Just had a feeling...

Wood consumption will be less with a newer, more efficient, insert. I burned as much as six cord of wood in mine in a season. I live in Farmington, Maine and it gets COLD for long periods of time during some winters. Others not so bad...

If I were having an insert installed, and was shopping...

I'd look for a non-cat (I'm going to take hell for this, I know) "afterburner" type insert.
I'd ask for the BTU rating of the insert, and roughly compare that to the heat loss rating of the house. Don't know what it is? How big is your boiler? Should be a sticker on it someplace with the BTU rating of it.
How much wood will I burn in this one, compared to that one?
How much wood can I put in it?
How long should it burn, if adjusted properly, on a load of wood?
Warrantee? Who inspects the defect and determines whether it's covered? Do I have to remove it and ship it someplace? Will someone come and inspect it in place? Will they service the unit, as part of the warrantee, or do I have to pay labor and shipping on the parts?
Is the insert suitable for my prefab fireplace?


Installing a zero clearance fireplace unit is going to limit your options size wise, as you don't have a large firebox area to put a large insert into. So this won't like be a problem. With a smaller insert, you'll fire harder for shorter periods of time. This should, with proper use, allow you to maintain a fairly clean chimney. Smoldering a larger insert than you need is going to hog up a chimney in a hurry. Or it's going to drive you to opening the windows and doors in the house because you're too hot.

Insurance companies vary. Most don't want a solid fuel burner anywhere flammable liquids could be spilled or leaked and drafted into it... BOOM!

Good luck. Others will chime in here I am sure. Some will agree, some won't. That's all fine in the end. A diversity of opinion and variety of information is not a bad thing. So long as they can justify their opinion. Information is power. You're getting powerful...

 

[LeonMSPT]

"Dry" wood, properly seasoned, is 20% water by weight. That means if you put thirty pounds of wood on a fire, you're adding 3 quarts of water to your fire. It has to be boiled off as steam as the wood burns. Maintaining temperatures and gas movement is critical to reducing deposition and formation of creosote. And creosote is the enemy.

 

[edthedawg]

My interior masonry chimney (ca. 1885) is some 35+ feet tall, and I tried both before and after our liner install to get a fire lit in there and never succeeded - always smoked out the house. Clearly it has been used for fires in the past - it's charred, the steel backplate is cracked from overheating, and the local FD noted they had visited at least once for a chimney fire call "your bushes scratched the hell out of our truck" (I cut the bushes down!)

I was similarly very concerned about draft once we installed the stove as this lengthened the pipe, added bends, etc... No issues whatsoever. It drafts TOO much, in fact - had to add a damper!

You should be able to do a ZC insert and probably still get rid of that flue extension - just gonna condense more creo in that.

Dunno if this helps...

 

[dswineford]

Hi Mark-

I don't see anything wrong with what you have. Me personally think you might need a little pratice getting a small quick HOT fire going quickly. My neighbor had the same problem and I asked how she made a fire? She said with large logs about 6 or 7 inches round. I said try useing small little pieces to start with then gradually adding some bigger ones after you get it blazeing HOT. I told her not to make any "sissy fires" and to burn wood like you stole it. Once a good fire is established, after a hour or so, then you can add bigger logs.

good luck, Dan

 

[mtj53]

Thanks guys for all of the great information. You've given me plenty to think about and I do feel better about this already. I'm not jumping into this, I'll definately have more questions in the next month or so, for now I'll learn as much as I possibly can. I did stop at a place today and talked with a salesman, mainly stopped to pick up a few brochures, see what he sold, and asked a few softball questions. I asked my first question and almost immediately something came up that I didn't expect. I simply asked him how a fireplace insert affects rooms that are next to but not real open to the room that the insert is in. His answer surprised me because I hadn't seen it discussed here, but perhaps I just didn't find it. He said he tells all of his customers to run their furnace fans full time, (not the heater, just the fan) and with your cold air returns working properly, and the fan constantly blowing, the insert should heat the entire house. It sounded logical, but this is the sort of thing I'm weary of since I hadn't heard it discussed here. Idea's or comments on that?
I'd also like to ask, I've seen posts that discuss heat zone kits. I do have one area of my house that isn't open as much as I'd like. Would a heat zone kit be an option? Or is that strictly for new construction? Just curious, If I find the right stove, learn how to use it properly, I would love to be able to figure out a way to take care of the whole house. Probably wishful thinking but trying to think ahead. More to come as I get into this more, Thank you all very much....

 

[LeonMSPT]

If you've got hot air heat, that sounds like a not only plausible, but effective way of distributing heat. I have an insert in my living room, 45 feet from the bedroom. I use a floor fan outside of the bedroom to push cold air down toward the living room. Living room is 82 to 88 degrees, bedroom runs 70 to 75. Heat rises, so if you shove cold air on the floor in the direction of the insert, it will be replaced from the side and above with warmer air.

Just have to get a large enough insert... into the prefab fireplace.

Thanks guys for all of the great information. You've given me plenty to think about and I do feel better about this already. I'm not jumping into this, I'll definately have more questions in the next month or so, for now I'll learn as much as I possibly can. I did stop at a place today and talked with a salesman, mainly stopped to pick up a few brochures, see what he sold, and asked a few softball questions. I asked my first question and almost immediately something came up that I didn't expect. I simply asked him how a fireplace insert affects rooms that are next to but not real open to the room that the insert is in. His answer surprised me because I hadn't seen it discussed here, but perhaps I just didn't find it. He said he tells all of his customers to run their furnace fans full time, (not the heater, just the fan) and with your cold air returns working properly, and the fan constantly blowing, the insert should heat the entire house. It sounded logical, but this is the sort of thing I'm weary of since I hadn't heard it discussed here. Idea's or comments on that?
I'd also like to ask, I've seen posts that discuss heat zone kits. I do have one area of my house that isn't open as much as I'd like. Would a heat zone kit be an option? Or is that strictly for new construction? Just curious, If I find the right stove, learn how to use it properly, I would love to be able to figure out a way to take care of the whole house. Probably wishful thinking but trying to think ahead. More to come as I get into this more, Thank you all very much....