First Burn of the Fall - Questions and Concerns

[Hitch]

Our Harmarn XXV was installed in February 2011. It was installed by the company that we bought it from. They did install an OAK. They seemed to do a good job and I believe that they followed the requirements in the manual for clearances, lengths, etc. We used it for several weeks and then I did what you all would probably consider a basic clean out -- I vacuumed it out as best I could and removed the few remaining pellets. I didn't remove any panels (although I think I loosened the burn pot a bit) or do the leaf blower thing as I hired the place I bought it from to do a Spring cleaning.

I am not too thrilled with the job they did. At the time, the only thing that bothered me was that my wife asked the guy to check the stove as the last time we used it, it didn't want to turn off. It just kept feeding pellets. Some pellets are briefly fed into the burn pot just after it is turned off, but this time they fed for a while and the fan speed did not decrease. Anyway, the guy first vacuumed out the stove, did a basic check and then decided to put some pellets in it. He ran some pellets through it and said it seemed to be working fine. He said we shouldn't worry much as the warranty "should be at least a couple years". Anyway, when I got home that night I vacuumed the stove out and removed the remaining pellets (again...).

Back to my stove concerns...

First off, when lighting the stove, particulary if there aren't any pellets already in the burn pot, I have smelled smoke. The smoke is only noticeable as the ignitor is doing its thing. Once the flame starts going, I don't smell any smoke. I didn't think much of it last year, but have been reading this site more often and see that people are saying I should never smell smoke.

Last night, I started up the pellet stove for the first time this Fall. It ran a bunch of pellets into the burn pot and then I noticed the ignitor start to work. A lot of smoke built up in the stove before the flames really started. During that time, I could smell a bit of smoke. My wife was probably 8 or 10 feet away and couldn't smell it. I was sniffing around the stove like some sort of a crazed person, trying to find where it was coming from. The smell seemed stronger toward the front of the stove, not the back where the pipes go in and out. Once the stove got going, the smoke smell dissipated. Tonight, I will check out the door gasket to see if that is where is could be coming from.

Should I not be smelling any smoke - even when starting the stove without any pellets in the burn pot?

Also, I noticed a fair amount of rust inside the stove. Unfortunately, I didn't notice it until after I started up the stove and it was feeding the pellets into the burn pot. I was surprised to see the rust, as I had checked the stove a couple times over the summer and didn't notice it previously. It had to have occurred over the past month or so. There was a definite metalic/rust like smell coming from the stove (from where the heat comes out). This smell took a whle to go away, but seemed to have stopped after about two hours.

Should I be doing anything now about the rust? I'll check the stove when I get home tonight, as it will be cooled off. However, I am not really sure what to look for.

Also, should I do anything different in the spring (other than doing the spring cleaning myself)? I am guessing that the moisture came in through either the exhaust vent or the OAK. Do you guys typically cover or seal them?

Also, is it normal for the OAK vent to wiggle where it connects to the stove? I have a fair amount of movement there.

Here are a couple pictures of the back of my stove, to the extent that helps with my questions.

Sorry for the long post and thanks for any help!

 

[gbreda]

First off, the mention of ALOT of smoke just before fire is normal. I kind of like watching that because; then comes fire!! You will also see alot of smoke coming from your venting outside at the same time...makes sense, huh.

The smoke smell on startup: I had the same issue and tracked it down to a leaking vent elbow: taped it up and all is good, no smell at all. If it is coming from the front of the stove, do the dollar test on your door gasket. Close the door and latch it with a dollar bill between the gasket and door frame. It should be very snug and a bit difficult to pull out. If it comes out easily, then there are 1 or 2 bolts just inside the door where it latches that you loosen to adjust; then re tighten the bolts; very easy to do.

To determine the smoke leak, shut off lights at start up and use a drop light or the like to "backlight" the areas (might be a bit harder to get behind your setup). You will see the smoke alot easier that way.

Rust inside? You can disconnect the OAK inside and cap the outside vent for the summer. Just remember to remove the cap before lighting. This past summer, I put desiccant cups (Damp Rid; I think) inside the firebox to help out. If the rust is light surface rust (most likely), clean it with steel wool, sand paper etc and then the stove will most likely clean up the rest of it during the first good burns of the season.

Hope this helps!!

 

[DexterDay]

The stoves firebox is under negative pressure. So if your door gasket was "leaking"? It would be sucking air into the firebox, not discharging smoke. Its all under negative pressure until you reach the combustion blower, from there it is a positive pressure environment. The smoke may be coming from any number of places. But if I had to guess, it would be the stove adapter (1st section of pipe on your stove) This must be sealed properly when installed. By judging the bang up job (sealing) on your OAK, I would say it lies there. Or any piece of your venting after that. Do you have standard Simpson Pellet vent or Pellet vent pro?

 

[lbcynya]

Smoke, probably coming from that crappy Simpson pipe every "professional installer" uses. Sorry, I'm a bit down on professionals and Simpson pipe. There are good ones out there, but it's a crap shoot. Anyway, do the light the stove in the dark trick and use a flashlight to find the smoke. Also check the seal around the thimble to insure no outside smoke is making it back inside. Are there any windows or other "leaky" areas the smoke could be wandering back into the house during start-up? Once everything heats up, draft and clean burn will make the smoke smell go away. But smell at start-up shouldn't be there.

Spring - Thoroughly clean, put a liberal coat of Pam on all metal surfaces inside stove and fill the ash pan with pellets to soak up some of the moisture. Works for me. Also, plug the Oak to prevent moist humid air from circulating through the stove during the summer.

PS - What's all over your piping? Looks like ash? No?

 

[Bkins]

I would also take a flashlight look by the blue electrical box on the side of the thimble. Let us know what you find.

 

[Hitch]

Many thanks for the thoughts, comments and suggestions.

Gbreda - I'll check the door gasket with some paper tonight. Dexter makes an interesting point with the negative pressure issue. However, it smelled stronger towards the front and not towards the back. I actually stuck my nose into the side at the top where there is some openings and smelled smoke there. Also, I am assuming, hoping, that it is just light surface rust.

I think Ibcy is correct and that it is Simpson venting. I will confirm tonight.

Dexter - Am I correct that you aren't very impressed with the OAK sealing? I don't think there is any tape on it at all. Should there be?

Ibcy - I checked the outside portion of the thimble last night. It was sealed pretty well, but I did see what I believe to be an open gap or two. I'll caulk around the outside of the thimble tonight. Thinking this through, gaps between the outside of the timble and the siding would be the most likely source of the air. Do I need special (heat rated) caulk for around the outside thinble? I wouldn't think that gets much of any heat.

Also, I added a faceplate to cover the blue junction box last March. There is some air that comes through that spot (between the left side of the faceplate and the inside of the house thimble), so I guess some of that air could contain smoke. Good point, bkins, I'll check that as well.

There were no open windows or doors near the stove. I did open a window on the opposite side of the room about an hour after the fire started, in order to reduce the metallic smell (the smoke smell was long gone by then and didn't come back).

Also, the stuff on the piping is not ash. It's from when the guys grouted the tile on the back. They were not all that clean and some of the water that they used to clean off the grout dripped onto the piping/vents. I tried to clean it up, but it wasn't easy and I wasn't all that motivated because it was behind the stove.

 

[Hitch]

One more thing, where the OAK attaches to the stove, it moves a fair amount. Is that normal? Maybe I can post a YouTube video link to show you guys (which I have no experience with...).

 

[DexterDay]

Looks like the OAK has sealant everywhere on the end. Does not look "clean" . Just thought a Pro would have done a better job. If its not Sealant, then my apologies. Its always better to have an OAK (personal opinion). Is there any clamps on the OAK? Connecting it to the stove or thimble?

If you smell smoke at the heat exchange area (where hot air comes from) then there may be a sealing issue there. Dont know how Harmans are. But my Quad has a plenum that needs to be sealed correctly or smoke can be drawn into these tubes.

 

[Hitch]

Thanks Dexter. I will check for sealant. Maybe I can get some better pictures tonight.

On the smoke near the heat exchanger/exhaust, I was concerned last night that it was coming through the heat exchanger from the firebox and out the front. However, it would seem that the smoke smell would continue and it didn't. Maybe it is the connection right at the stove and the smoke is making its way up the inside of the stove????

 

[PJPellet]

[quote author="Hitch" date="1317864639"]One more thing, where the OAK attaches to the stove, it moves a fair amount. Is that normal? Maybe I can post a YouTube video link to show you guys (which I have no experience with...).[/q



My install in February sounds similar to yours. There was "play" in my OAK connections. The OAK pipe just "sat" in it's place. I wanted to seal it up so I just put 3M 600* aluminum tape on the connection at the stove and the thimble. The 3M tape is available at most hardware stores. In the future I want to remove the OAK in the summer months to help prevent rust so I only used the tape, otherwise I would have used high temp silicone sealant.


I also had a smoke smell on start up, thought it was normal because this is my first pellet stove. When I realized it was not normal(thank you to this forum) I started to investigate and I found an exhaust leak at the stove adapter because the installer installed it incorrectly. I used 500* silicone sealant and filled the seams of the stove adapter and now no smoke smell! I have a suspicion this might be it. The stove you have is a great one and once you get these kinks worked out you will be all set. By the way about the burnpot being loose. It's most likely not loose. The top portion slides out so it's easier to scrape and clean the burnpot. The part is called a "flame guide." That was something else I discovered too. If you nudge it when scraping it feels loose but it's good to go. Let us know what you find out. Good Luck!

 

[PJPellet]

Oh I forgot to post that my installer never seals the OAK connection on his installations. However the stoves in his show room ALL have the tape on them. Go figure.

 

[Hitch]

Well, I spent a few hours last night checking out the stove, reading the manual, taking pixs, looking for the leak(s), etc.

First, I generally found the leak and was suprised by the amount of smoke that was coming out. It seems to be coming from the bottom of the vent, and likely before the 45* turn towards the exterior wall. When I first spotted the smoke, I saw it sucking into the back of the stove. I don't have a picture of the back of the stove, but there is a gap between where the vent starts out the back of the stove and the rear cover. I need to do some more investigating tonight. I also need to figure out a way to see the bottom of the venting. Not much room to maneuver!

Second, the OAK is not attached to the stove at all. There is a piece of rear cover which can be removed with two screws. The edge of the rear cover butts up against the spot where the OAK goes through. When I removed that cover, I could see that the OAK tube is just jammed into the OAK connection for the stove. No screws. No tape. At the other end of the OAK vent, where it goes into the wall, there is a single screw. Once again, no tape.

As stated above, the smoke that I spotted was sucking into the rear of the stove. I am guessing that is because there is no tape around where the OAK tube connects to the stove - the stove is probably pulling in house air as well as OAK air. Note that I did go outside and confirm that the OAK is pulling some air from outside. Since the smoke was sucking into the back of the stove, it would make some sense that I smelled it up near the front, top of the stove. So, I am less concerned that it is coming from the firebox itself.

Here are a couple more pics that I took.

 

[heat seeker]

The smoke might be getting sucked into the room air blower, thus spreading the smoke into the room with great efficiency.

 

[DexterDay]

Use a small mirror to check underneath. Smoke was going towards stove because of the fan in the combustion blower. Not the fan blades inside the stove. The little fan to cool the motor itself. More than likely.

 

[DexterDay]

The smoke might be getting sucked into the room air blower, thus spreading the smoke into the room with great efficiency.

The room air (convection blower) blower is not on at "Start-up" when he is having problems with smoke. The combustion blower, however small, does move a little air behind the unit.

 

[heat seeker]

The smoke might be getting sucked into the room air blower, thus spreading the smoke into the room with great efficiency.

The room air (convection blower) blower is not on at "Start-up" when he is having problems with smoke. The combustion blower, however small, does move a little air behind the unit.

Yup, I wasn't thinking of that. You're right!

 

[gbreda]

Overall, this really should be repaired by the "professionals" that installed the stove. Depending on the installer/dealer, they may or may not stand behind the work as it was installed months ago. If you had reported the issue, I should think that they will. I too had mine done by the dealer and never again will that happen unless it is a thru the roof install. I would have done a better job than they did, and had to fix several of their mistakes myself; including smoke at start-up.

First, I generally found the leak and was suprised by the amount of smoke that was coming out. It seems to be coming from the bottom of the vent, and likely before the 45* turn towards the exterior wall. When I first spotted the smoke, I saw it sucking into the back of the stove. I don't have a picture of the back of the stove, but there is a gap between where the vent starts out the back of the stove and the rear cover. I need to do some more investigating tonight. I also need to figure out a way to see the bottom of the venting. Not much room to maneuver!

Looks like a gap at the stove adapter and connecting pipe. There is sealant, but maybe not enough. There is not alot of room to work there, but your best bet is to remove the adapter by the 3 bolts to the stove and seal completely from the inside. I had to do that with mine as well. If there is no sealant at the 45 deg joint, then this wont be too bad. Try and remove the 3 bolts and then you can move the stove.

If you decide to remove the adapter, be careful with the gasket. I have a spare in case I need to remove to again.

Second, the OAK is not attached to the stove at all. There is a piece of rear cover which can be removed with two screws. The edge of the rear cover butts up against the spot where the OAK goes through. When I removed that cover, I could see that the OAK tube is just jammed into the OAK connection for the stove. No screws. No tape. At the other end of the OAK vent, where it goes into the wall, there is a single screw. Once again, no tape.

Don't focus too much on the OAK not being secured. Mine is not, but it is very snug. A friends' XXV is not secured and is very loose. Two different types of hose being used and they fit differently. No smoke issues in either stove from this. It looks like you have a Harman thimble as I do and if they used the matching hose, it should be snug. My friends loose one is a generic set up as she has 4" venting and I think the Harman only accepts 3".

My final resolve for 2 leaks was: Sealing the adapter (that will never come apart again, LOL) and the second leak was at a 90 degree. The dealer gave me a second one and that leaked to at the manufactured joints. My stove is in the basement, so I just taped it up. No smoke at all: ever.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.