Free Standing Stove Vs. Insert question

[BrowningBAR]

I have never owned an Insert, and probably never will based on my setup, so I have never used one. What is the heating difference between the two styles when compared directly to the same model.

Three Examples:
Blaze King Princess Ultra/ParlorClassic vs Insert
PE Alderlea T5 vs the T5 insert
Englander 13NC vs the 13NCI

Do the inserts produce less heat when compared to their free standing versions? Do burn times change? We all know inserts will rely more on the blower for the most part, but apart from that what can an owner expect when comparing two identical models but one is an insert and one is a free standing stove?

 

[mellow]

That is a tough call, I do know insulating my fireplace made a huge difference with my insert, I could run it with no blower with the surround off, but the blower does help a lot. If I were to plop a freestanding rear vent stove in front of the fireplace I would more than likely not have to use a blower, both would heat the house very well.

Differences I see would be how much floor space is taken up and needing electric for a blower.

 

[begreen]

In a very general sense I would say that in the same room the difference would be a higher reliance on the blower with the insert. That is in an interior fireplace If the insert is in a massive exterior chimney without a block off plate, then the efficiency of the insert goes down considerably.

 

[tfdchief]

My old, non EPA Buck has an incredible heat exchange and blower system. It will keep up with or out do any free standing unit. I am sure it depends on the insert, but I would think to be an efficient heater, a blower would at the least be a plus. A lot depends on the set up. To directly answer your question, based only on my experience and the two stove in my signature, the non EPA insert (admittedly a little bigger fire box) will out heat my free standing EPA stove.

 

[begreen]

Chief, that is not a very fair comparison. Look at the capacity of each stove. The question is, if your Buck was pulled out of the fireplace and set as a freestander, would it heat even better? I would think so.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Chief, that is not a very fair comparison. Look at the capacity of each stove. The question is, if your Buck was pulled out of the fireplace and set as a freestander, would it heat even better? I would think so.

That's what I was getting at, and wondering. When comparing the same models, can you expect the insert to heat as well as the free standing model?

 

[tfdchief]

Chief, that is not a very fair comparison. Look at the capacity of each stove. The question is, if your Buck was pulled out of the fireplace and set as a freestander, would it heat even better? I would think so.

True, not completely fair, as I indicated the Buck's fire box is somewhat bigger. As for the Buck heating better as a free standing, I doubt it. The reason being is that, as I stated, it has an incredible heat exchange system entirely around the the fire box with thermostaticlly controlled fan. I am not familiar with the heat exchanger on the new inserts. They may be as good. And I am sure that in most cases the free standing stove would outdo the insert.......Just relating my direct experience with what I have. I did not mean to mislead the OP.

 

[mellow]

BTU is BTU. Take my insert for example, both insert and free standing are rated for 60000 BTU, both have the same exact specs. An insert has a metal sleeve around it to try and compensate for the fact it is stuck in a hole, anything stuck in a hole will be at a disadvantage, but with a blower to radiate those BTU's out from the hole in my mind puts it close to a free standing stove.

If you take that insert and make it a freestanding the metal sleeve will block some heat from radiating with no blower on, that is the only difference I can see, you are liberating the insert from its hole.

 

[BrowningBAR]

BTU is BTU. Take my insert for example, both insert and free standing are rated for 60000 BTU, both have the same exact specs.

I disagree with that. BTU ratings are not reliable at all.

If you take that insert and make it a freestanding the metal sleeve will block some heat from radiating with no blower on, that is the only difference I can see, you are liberating the insert from its hole.

But, that is not what I am talking about. I'm not talking about taking an insert and pulling it out of the fireplace. I listed direct comparisons of the same model. Would they heat the same? Would one model throw more heat than the other model?

 

[BrowningBAR]

As for the Buck heating better as a free standing, I doubt it. The reason being is that, as I stated, it has an incredible heat exchange system entirely around the the fire box with thermostaticlly controlled fan. I am not familiar with the heat exchanger on the new inserts. They may be as good. And I am sure that in most cases the free standing stove would outdo the insert.......Just relating my direct experience with what I have. I did not mean to mislead the OP.

I was not mislead. I knew what you were talking about and I knew that the Buck is bigger than the Hampton. What I am specifically getting at is an insert and a freestanding stove of the exact same model equal when it comes to heating capacity? Would an owner notice a difference if he had the option of running both stoves in the same location? Is one a better choice on heating capabilities alone (ignoring the power outage issues and reliance of needing a blower to get heat from the insert).

 

[mellow]

From the Englander side it would be a question for Mike (stoveguy2esw) might know if you are looking for exact data.

 

[begreen]

BTU is BTU. Take my insert for example, both insert and free standing are rated for 60000 BTU, both have the same exact specs. An insert has a metal sleeve around it to try and compensate for the fact it is stuck in a hole, anything stuck in a hole will be at a disadvantage, but with a blower to radiate those BTU's out from the hole in my mind puts it close to a free standing stove.

If you take that insert and make it a freestanding the metal sleeve will block some heat from radiating with no blower on, that is the only difference I can see, you are liberating the insert from its hole.

The insert would "convect" those btus out. Essentially an insert is a fully shielded convective stove with a radiant front, much in the same way as jacketed stoves like the PEs are designed. The reverse has been shown by BrotherBart. His stove is sitting in a fireplace and it heats well. But soon he will have the same stove hooked up in the basement. It will be interesting to see if there is a noted performance difference.

I tend to think not. The heat output will be the same but the heat loss can be quite different. The placement of the stove is different and as noted earlier, if there is a mass of exterior stone surrounding an insert with no block-off plate, it is going to lose a significant percentage of its heat to outdoors. This is similar to running a stove in an uninsulated basement.

 

[tfdchief]

The insert would "convect" those btus out. Essentially an insert is a fully shielded convective stove with a radiant front, much in the same way as jacketed stoves like the PEs are designed. The reverse has been shown by BrotherBart. His stove is sitting in a fireplace and it heats well. But soon he will have the same stove hooked up in the basement. It will be interesting to see if there is a noted performance difference.

I tend to think not. The heat output will be the same but the heat loss can be quite different. The placement of the stove is different and as noted earlier, if there is a mass of exterior stone surrounding an insert with no block-off plate, it is going to lose a significant percentage of its heat to outdoors. This is similar to running a stove in an uninsulated basement.

But if the convection/heat exchange system is good enough........maybe not?

 

[begreen]

True, if it has a well insulated back that isolated it from the cold + a block off plate, then maybe not. Though there would still be some radiant heat loss in comparison I would think. Just guessing though.

 

[tfdchief]

True, if it has a well insulated back that isolated it from the cold + a block off plate, then maybe not. Though there would still be some radiant heat loss in comparison I would think. Just guessing though.

Again, I can't speak for any other insert. But the old Buck 26000 has and incredible convection/heat exchange system that I can't believe does not capture virtually all of the heat available. There are other Buck 26000-28000 owners out there that have them as free standing. Hope they can chime in here. Sorry, just an old die hard Buck Stove lover here.

 

[begreen]

Are you saying that you could put your hand on the back of the insert when it is at peak heat? If so, that's remarkable. If not, there is radiated heat that is going into the firebox and masonry. I strongly suspect the latter.

 

[tfdchief]

Are you saying that you could put your hand on the back of the insert when it is at peak heat? If so, that's remarkable. If not, there is radiated heat that is going into the firebox and masonry. I strongly suspect the latter.

Well, I can't put my hand there because that is not physically possible, but I suspect that I could. The inside of the fire box collects creosote that burns and flakes off because it stay so cool do to the convection/heat exchange of the stove. I have measured the air coming from the blower outlets as high as 250 degrees F, and a lot of it when the fan goes to medium or high,. I know that I am claimiing a lot and maybe all inserts are not made this way, but the old buck draws air in through one layer, then exhausts it through the inner layer that completely surrounds the fire box, sides, top, and bottom. Not many do that. And, the out put is thermostatically controlled, 3 fan speeds. When that baby kicks up on high, you won't stand very close in front of it for very long!!

 

[begreen]

I suspect that the back of that stove would cause pain if you touched it when going full tilt. The design sounds pretty typical of a good insert actually, though there is little need to pull air across the bottom. Not much heat gain there.

 

[BrowningBAR]

So, there is heat loss from an insert? A T5 would have better heating capabilities than the T5 Insert?

 

[begreen]

I think so, if we are talking a T5 freestanding in the room vs a T5 insert. Unless it is isolated from the masonry I think there will be some degree of heat loss to it.

 

[Osage]

Chief, that is not a very fair comparison. Look at the capacity of each stove. The question is, if your Buck was pulled out of the fireplace and set as a freestander, would it heat even better? I would think so.

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