HeatNE Conference

[smwilliamson]

Just got home from the HeatNE biomass conference, Manchester NH. Great 2 days of learning, meeting and mingling. Met Craig, the founder of this here forum. Met Dane Harman and Doug (forget his last name) the guy who owns Oakanagan. MEt hundreds of other people that make this whole thing go round. There is some great policy being drafted and points to which we all should lobby the States and Fed for. all in all...very productive. Well, back to work, great to be back home. Happy to answer any questions.

 

[lessoil]

I do have one question:
How is the pellet/biomass industry shaping up? Long and Short Term
Hope they will refine their products and be around for a long time.

Thanks!!

 

[smwilliamson]

That's a really big 3 part question. The alliance put together a vision to get 25% of all thermal heat to be created by biomass by 2025. That's doable. Refinement....well, pellets are pretty refined. Consumer education needs improvent and advocacy ingeneral needs work. Anything you can contribute as an end user would be appreciated. Hearth.com should send a delegation next year to which I would love to be on. I'd even organize if needed.

 

[webbie]

I'll post some pics and some opinions.
Folks with interest in the bigger picture should read the new vision laid out by this coalition of folks. I expect it to be up on their web site soon, as they released it this morning to the press. They have a vision for the next 10-15 years which mirrors some of the European countries in which biomass is a regular part of the mix (20 to 40%) of thermal heating.

My quick take is this - the supply can easily be worked out. The appliances can be made.
BUT, I see the weak link in the chain as being the dealer and the customer. A lot of education is needed, as well as better service after the sale for longer terms.

 

[lessoil]

Thanks for the replies!!
If you need specific info from me as a user, let me know.
I am sure that most if not all of the members of this forum feel the same way.
FYI
We have ordered 4 tons from the Athens (Maine) plant as their new offering burned real well.

 

[hoverfly]

I was there as well and learned current short term tax breaks, incentives and government meddling has proved an unsustainable spike in many sections of the bio energy market. All this and what happened with oil, pellet prices, two years ago and disinformation has left a bad taste it the general public mouth has seriously wounded the market. It was clear a push on reeducation on the State and Federal level is needed along with long term tax breaks 6 to 10 years in my opinion, longer if needed on installs of Central/add on heating systems. However if the Manufactures, including Pellet, and Dealers, exploit the savings to the costumer, this whole thing will go no where. In my opinion pellet prices must stay significantly lower than oil and stable, or many plants will go out off business. On that note I talked to a Rep from NWP and the big cost is oil to move pellets form long distances and add on to pellets is the hammer milling (electricity in NH is not on the cheap side) when the supply of saw dust dried up. Where the price of pellets should be remains a mystery to me on the business end, but for the customer less than 240.00 a ton at current oil prices prices in my view.

 

[webbie]

Those are good points!
I think that the roller coaster you describe - on and off again incentives, spikes in oil prices, government involvement and then none, etc. are a big part of the problem.

We need a stable plan. As that lady from Austria said, if you don't have a plan it's likely that you are part of someone else's plan (probably big oil).

We need the incentives and programs, but we also need some kind of program to moderate the price swings of oil and gas (whether it be cap and trade or another way of taxation to put money toward renewable programs or R&D)......

In the end, I don't know if it is that the price of pellets is vastly too high - I suspect $200 a ton in bulk would be competitive over the long run - but more that the price of oil and gas are too low!

We see, in that oil spill and in the wars for oil security....that we are not paying the real price of oil and gas, but rather a low price based on not figuring all the costs involved in the total life cycle.

 

[hoverfly]

In the closing Penary, Q and A with the discussion panel, I love the part that the rep form Spraugue Energy predicated that indigenous bio mass supply was unsustainable and we would get our pellets from south Africa and in replay from one pellet mill owner said something alone the lines of, your right about pellets coming form the South, but not form South Africa but some Southern U.S. state, Forgot what what Southern state he came from. I was quite surprised how people held back applause and Cheer on that, the audience was quite subdued toward Spraugue. (see personal note bellow)

Ending this positing on a personal note I think a main reason that the conference doubled in numbers, this year people who showed up like the dealers and suppliers, were looking for answers to what to do about the economic situation of the pellet industry, they are lost sheep wondering around. Part of it has been their own fault. This is Not good. Not good at all.

 

[webbie]

One of my other critiques was why Pa was not included - so I sort of commiserated with the dude from VA who said not to forget about him!

I understand that they have to start with a focus - which is a good strategy IMHO. In other words, there are certain qualities which make New England different.....presumably:
1. A fairly well developed pellet industry.
2. Forests galore, many well managed
3. A populace which is concerned, en masse, with energy security and independence
4. Cold Weather
5. Relatively enlightened government which is open to helping.....

I don't think these factors are all available in many other regions. Trying to change this entire country in one step is probably reaching to far.

 

[smwilliamson]

In the closing Penary, Q and A with the discussion panel, I love the part that the rep form Spraugue Energy predicated that indigenous bio mass supply was unsustainable and we would get our pellets from south Africa and in replay from one pellet mill owner said something alone the lines of, your right about pellets coming form the South, but not form South America but some Southern U.S. state, Forgot what what Southern state he came from. I was quite surprised how people held back applause and Cheer on that, the audience was quite subdued toward Spraugue. (see personal note bellow)

Ending this positing on a personal note I think a main reason that the conference doubled in numbers, this year people who showed up like the dealers and suppliers, were looking for answers to what to do about the economic situation of the pellet industry, they are lost sheep wondering around. Part of it has been their own fault. This is Not good. Not good at all.

The guy from Sprauge said that we would be getting them from South America and Mason Whitlock from Potomac Biomass saif that you don't have to go to South America, just southern America. He is from VA.

 

[hossthehermit]

Was Les Otten there to promote his plan for pellet boilers? Get a free boiler from him, and buy your pellets from him for the rest of your life? Just curious.

 

[smwilliamson]

Was Les Otten there to promote his plan for pellet boilers? Get a free boiler from him, and buy your pellets from him for the rest of your life? Just curious.

No but Dutch and Mike were there, also MYSES people. I get the feeling you aren't a Les fan? Trust me, he isn't giving a single boiler away at $12-37k

 

[fluemasterjr]

probably the biggest thing that needs to change in order to make the biomass industry change for the better is the delivery of the fuel... its plane and simple forty pound bags what a joke. how can this be a green movement when so much is wasted. Have you ever tried recycle these things. I went through 300+ of them last year between my house and store. how many tons are burned every year? 3,000,000+? the other things that this industry needs is consistency and parts availability. craig it was great to meet you and talk to you. your a wealth of knowledge.

 

[mascoma]

Plain and simple...
If 25% of NE heat was coming from biomass by 2025 wood products of all sorts will be outragously priced and not competitive with fossils even at $150 barrel level.
The industry could not support nor even resist taking advantage of people durring the spike in usage in 2008. Then even with tax breaks they could not sell stoves or fuel in 2009.
The fossil industry shapes biomass, not the other way around.

 

[hoverfly]

Plain and simple...
If 25% of NE heat was coming from biomass by 2025 wood products of all sorts will be outragously priced and not competitive with fossils even at $150 barrel level.
The industry could not support nor even resist taking advantage of people durring the spike in usage in 2008. Then even with tax breaks they could not sell stoves or fuel in 2009.
The fossil industry shapes biomass, not the other way around.

That may be true, but competition, and experiences from the last few years may prevent that happening again. Current tax breaks are short term not long term so the oil industry can afford to under cut biomass, but if you keep tax breaks for 6 to 10 years than I don't think oil will or can continue to do so. Two things why, China and here in the U.S. low spare capacity at the refineries. Additional capacity has not been added in the last 30 years and after $150 a barrel people started to buy more fuel efficient cars so plans to build new capacity was canceled.

 

[pelletdude]

I am very impressed with the comments so far on this post. I wish i could have attended the conference.

As for the future of pellet burning we have some options in Switchgrass, agri products such as ECO-BURN, Bamboo and others. I don't think we necessarily need all wood. We sell the Enviro line of Pellet Stoves and they are going the way of the Multi - Burn platform. This spring they have a new cast model and their Big heater the MAXX will be out in the fall with a Multi option. More stove companies need to be able to burn a greater variety of products.

I have read for along time about all these pellet burners that have problems with the fuel they burn, many finiky stoves on the market.

I am looking forward to hear comments by others that went to this event and hear some new ideas.

 

[mascoma]

I really don't think the oil industry is thinking about the biomass ind and strategically undercutting them, do you really think so?
Are we talking about tax breaks for the consumer or to build mills? The consumer breaks are also available on high eff. fossil burners and with fossil money in Wash. I'm sure will continue to be there. I am not up to speed on supply breaks.
If retail fuel prices go back to $4-5 gallon truely due to refinery capicity issues than you will see gov. relaxing any and all rules and regs to get more built or it will kill the economy. 2008 was speculation pure and simple. You mention china, I would not be surprised if refineries are needed they are built in china with no regulations to export refined fuels to the US as they do everything else.

Don't get me wrong, I want to see more biomass but I dont want to go broke when everyone jumps on the bandwagon. The solid biomass folks should be looking over their shoulders at ethanol research as well. There are several companies working to make cheap ethanol from woody plant materails, one in my hometown. If that happens it will be good to be a logger again and bad to be any other user of wood products, just look at corn.

We have a new library, an new school, and a remodeled school all coming on line in town with primary pellet boilers, fossil backups in the next 2 years. It will be interesting to see how they work out longterm.

 

[hoverfly]

I really don't think the oil industry is thinking about the biomass ind and strategically undercutting them, do you really think so?
Are we talking about tax breaks for the consumer or to build mills? The consumer breaks are also available on high eff. fossil burners and with fossil money in Wash. I'm sure will continue to be there. I am not up to speed on supply breaks.
If retail fuel prices go back to $4-5 gallon truely due to refinery capicity issues than you will see gov. relaxing any and all rules and regs to get more built or it will kill the economy. 2008 was speculation pure and simple. You mention china, I would not be surprised if refineries are needed they are built in china with no regulations to export refined fuels to the US as they do everything else.

Don't get me wrong, I want to see more biomass but I dont want to go broke when everyone jumps on the bandwagon. The solid biomass folks should be looking over their shoulders at ethanol research as well. There are several companies working to make cheap ethanol from woody plant materails, one in my hometown. If that happens it will be good to be a logger again and bad to be any other user of wood products, just look at corn.

We have a new library, an new school, and a remodeled school all coming on line in town with primary pellet boilers, fossil backups in the next 2 years. It will be interesting to see how they work out longterm.

Answer to question one: yes I do. Think cheap Melisa palm Bio oil

Answer to question two: Consumer, we have enough pellet mills for the time.

I don't think China will be able to keep up with their demand along with ours in a hot economy.

Ethanol has one big problem, fresh water, if a company can't win approval in getting approval to use local spring water supply to sell in a bottle what makes you think ethanol will? Two for one, two gallons of Ethanol to one gallon of gasoline. For E85 that's a lot of fresh water, I don't think many people have thought of that yet. I see it as a plus for wood for heating, there may be enough wood, but not enough fresh water, for the world it's actually a scarce commonalty and even in parts of this country. I am thinking ethanol may be more energy intensive than pellets over all to produce as well.

 

[hoverfly]

I really don't think the oil industry is thinking about the biomass ind and strategically undercutting them, do you really think so?
Are we talking about tax breaks for the consumer or to build mills? The consumer breaks are also available on high eff. fossil burners and with fossil money in Wash. I'm sure will continue to be there. I am not up to speed on supply breaks.
If retail fuel prices go back to $4-5 gallon truely due to refinery capicity issues than you will see gov. relaxing any and all rules and regs to get more built or it will kill the economy. 2008 was speculation pure and simple. You mention china, I would not be surprised if refineries are needed they are built in china with no regulations to export refined fuels to the US as they do everything else.

Don't get me wrong, I want to see more biomass but I dont want to go broke when everyone jumps on the bandwagon. The solid biomass folks should be looking over their shoulders at ethanol research as well. There are several companies working to make cheap ethanol from woody plant materails, one in my hometown. If that happens it will be good to be a logger again and bad to be any other user of wood products, just look at corn.

We have a new library, an new school, and a remodeled school all coming on line in town with primary pellet boilers, fossil backups in the next 2 years. It will be interesting to see how they work out longterm.

Answer to question one: yes I do. Think cheap Melisa palm Bio oil

Answer to question two: Consumer, we have enough pellet mills for the time.

I don't think China will be able to keep up with their demand along with ours in a hot economy.

Ethanol has one big problem, fresh water, if a company can't win approval in getting approval to use local spring water supply to sell in a bottle what makes you think ethanol will? Two for one, two gallons of Ethanol to one gallon of gasoline. For E85 that's a lot of fresh water, I don't think many people have thought of that yet. I see it as a plus for wood for heating, there may be enough wood, but not enough fresh water, for the world it's actually a scarce commonalty and even in parts of this country. I am thinking ethanol may be more energy intensive than pellets over all to produce as well.

 

[hoverfly]

I really don't think the oil industry is thinking about the biomass ind and strategically undercutting them, do you really think so?
Are we talking about tax breaks for the consumer or to build mills? The consumer breaks are also available on high eff. fossil burners and with fossil money in Wash. I'm sure will continue to be there. I am not up to speed on supply breaks.
If retail fuel prices go back to $4-5 gallon truely due to refinery capicity issues than you will see gov. relaxing any and all rules and regs to get more built or it will kill the economy. 2008 was speculation pure and simple. You mention china, I would not be surprised if refineries are needed they are built in china with no regulations to export refined fuels to the US as they do everything else.

Don't get me wrong, I want to see more biomass but I dont want to go broke when everyone jumps on the bandwagon. The solid biomass folks should be looking over their shoulders at ethanol research as well. There are several companies working to make cheap ethanol from woody plant materails, one in my hometown. If that happens it will be good to be a logger again and bad to be any other user of wood products, just look at corn.

We have a new library, an new school, and a remodeled school all coming on line in town with primary pellet boilers, fossil backups in the next 2 years. It will be interesting to see how they work out longterm.

Answer to question one: yes I do. Think cheap Melisa palm Bio oil

Answer to question two: Consumer, we have enough pellet mills for the time.

I don't think China will be able to keep up with their demand along with ours in a hot economy.

Ethanol has one big problem, fresh water, if a company can't win approval in getting approval to use local spring water supply to sell in a bottle what makes you think ethanol will? Two for one, two gallons of Ethanol to one gallon of gasoline. For E85 that's a lot of fresh water, I don't think many people have thought of that yet. I see it as a plus for wood for heating, there may be enough wood, but not enough fresh water, for the world it's actually a scarce commonalty and even in parts of this country. I am thinking ethanol may be more energy intensive than pellets over all to produce as well.