Help, Please!

[cmittlesteadt]

Hi All,

Thanks in advance for offering your knowledge and experience in this forum. I've been reading quite a bit in the last week or so trying to educate myself. Here's my situation:

I am currently heating 4000+ sq. ft. of area. Our house is a log home built 7 years ago and it's pretty tight. We have an Polaris LP boiler rated at 100K btu heating an "open" radiant floor system with PEX coils stapled to the bottom of the subfloor. We heat the garage slab and basement slab. Our last 2 months of LP use totaled $1250! I have to do something to reduce that. We've turned the thermostats down, but now it's just cold. I grew up cutting and burning wood and I've got an ample supply and equipment to do it again. I don't want a wood boiler in house. I don't want the mess, and I don't have the space for it and a storage system. That being said, I'm very seriously considering the CB E-Classic. I've also looked at the Greenwood Aspen 175 but I can't find many real world reports about it. I live 15 minutes away from the Sequoyah factory and I'm considering that option. I'll probably be doing a self-install. My plan is to locate the boiler about 30' away from the home and maximize the supply, return and HX sizes. I have a couple of specific questions. Our existing LP boiler heats both the radiant system water and the DHW. The boiler has 2 inlets and 2 outlets, however they are all connected together. I'm not sure about how to configure the HX. I assume that it would be best to use a large (50 or 70 plate) HX. Do I need to use 2 of them (one for DHW and one for heating)? It would seem as though 2 HX's would be more efficient. I'm not too sure about the tempering valve utilization or needs. Our LP boiler is set at 190* and sends that temp out to all zones. We have a mixing valve on the DHW supply to temper that down. I would assume that the HX would be piped before the LP boiler inlet(s) and "preheat" the water before it gets into the LP boiler. In that arrangement, the LP consumption would be significantly reduced. Am I correct here? Am I on the right track? I would love to hear about any of your firsthand experience with the boilers listed above or any other similar types. Any and all help is appreciated.

Thanks!
Chris

 

[Jim Post]

Chris-

I don't have any first hand experience with any of the boilers you listed, but I do have a tarm solo plus 30 operating in southern wi. Be careful, some of the outdoor boilers can be real wood eaters. I was attracted to the gassification boilers because of their miserly wood consumption reputation. Wood heating is a lot of work and the more wood you use the more work it is. You should be able to eliminate your LP use for heating with a properly installed wood boiler system. I don't even light my LP boiler unless we are going to be away and are not able to load wood.

I'm located near Stoughton, WI if you want to check out our set up...send me a PM (private message feature up above) and we can set something up.

jp

 

[leaddog]

Another idea is to buy one of the downdraft gasifiers such as the eko, tarm, ecoburn, and but them in a shed of some type and then you have room for wood and storage and you are out of the weather when tending. A 20ft shipping container is cheap waterproof and can be moved easily if you want. There is lots of room for wood and is fireproof. They would be very easily sided to fit in with your yard. One of the advantages of these boilers are they are closed pressurized systems so you will not need the hx's
There is alot of info here on plumbing systems here for open and closed systems and more knowedgeable people than I on that but nomatter which way you go go with some type of gasification boiler and get rid of the propane. It will be one of the best investments you can make.
leaddog

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

Make sure you do the calculations on the HX size! My situation sounds similar to yours (except not log construction) and I have a 20-plate HX. 50 or 70 size . . . well, sounds not right.

 

[flyingcow]

Agree with above posts. Check out wood consumption very closely before you buy. My neighbor has an e-classic and likes it. seems to do ok on wood consumption.But he has a small to midsized house. Burns pretty clean. When I looked into an e-classic it was about $12000 to set it up.The dealer said I would use about a cord(full cord, none of that pansy azz face cord crap)per 100 gals of oil I was consuming.Gasifier should be about 150gals = 1 cord.

I've got about the same amount in my set up, but about $2to$3000 ettra in piping and controls. You can always install a gasifier and do storage next year. Google "GARN". Thats a very interesting unit. You've got a huge house, I would just take a wild guess and your probably looking at about 15 to 20 cord useage with a OWB eclassic. Even if you got the wood, still a lot of handling. But i will point out you need well seasoned wood to burn in gasifier. Split pretty small too. MY .02

 

[AOTO]

I would recommend that when you decide on piping, that you go with the closed cell pex. I went with the double wrapped stuff and I am losing BTU by the inch. This was my biggest error in installation. I have 150' each way (Barn and house w/boiler in the middle).
I am running 1 1/4" piping and am losing close to 40 degrees by the time it makes it to the oiler in the basement for distribution. The company (Sequoyah) thinks that water has infiltrated my tubing and is robbing me of the BTU's. This spring I will try to evaporate out the water and see what next year brings. The unit has had no issues so far.

I run my DHW and my baseboard all through the same unit and don't use a heat / plate exchanger. I run my feed line from the OWB into my oiler and then return the water to the OWB from the bottom of the oiler at the drain line. I shut off the water feed and made the whole system non-pressurized. Pretty simple.

 

[Hydronics]

Personally I'd get an EKO 60 for $7000, install in out-building, no HX as mentioned, great efficiency & quality for the dollar. The 60 has a large enough firebox to give you long burns like an OWB & will have extra capacity to reheat storage quickly if you add it later. Why spend more for a low tech. unit that will use more wood?

 

[heaterman]

If you can make an indoor unit work I'd highly recommend that. In talking with customers who have had any form of outdoor boiler for a few years they all have one general "complaint". They are sick and tired of trudging through the snow to fire the thing.

Another thing you may want to investigate is whether any unit you are considering qualifies for the energy tax credit available this year. I know that Econburn (www.alternativefuelboilers.com) is Energy Star rated and therefore qualifies if I'm not mistaken.

One thing I believe I would do if I were you is to experiment a little with your water temps. See if you truly need 190* water temps to heat your house by turning the aquastat down to 180, then 170, then 160 etc. and see what happens. If you actually need to run temps that high I would advise you to install some more radiation if possible. Being able to use a wider swing on the water temp range will give you a lot more latitude in how often you have to fire your boiler. I would feel actual pain if I designed a system that required 190* water to heat someone's house as system efficiency goes up proportionally to lower water temps. Maximum allowable water temp in Europe, where efficiency is king, sits at 167* max. Most are designed to run on much less.

 

[cmittlesteadt]

Hi All,

Thanks much for your insightful replies. I'm learning......... I'm no longer considering the EClassic. I'm leaning toward an EKO 60 or equivalent in an outbuilding with storage for both water and wood. I have no existing outbuilding, but I'll make something happen. Regarding the outbuilding, how insulated should the boiler room be for an "indoor" gasifier? Should I build and insulate it as if it's a typical room in my house? Can I get by with less, or is the savings in insulation not worthwhile? How about heating the slab of the boiler room? Should I set up a zone with pex in the slab, or will it be heated well enough from simply the presence of the boiler in the room? Wow, I've got lots more to learn before I can proceed with this.

Thanks again, all!

 

[heaterman]

Hi All,

Thanks much for your insightful replies. I'm learning......... I'm no longer considering the EClassic. I'm leaning toward an EKO 60 or equivalent in an outbuilding with storage for both water and wood. I have no existing outbuilding, but I'll make something happen. Regarding the outbuilding, how insulated should the boiler room be for an "indoor" gasifier? Should I build and insulate it as if it's a typical room in my house? Can I get by with less, or is the savings in insulation not worthwhile? How about heating the slab of the boiler room? Should I set up a zone with pex in the slab, or will it be heated well enough from simply the presence of the boiler in the room? Wow, I've got lots more to learn before I can proceed with this.

Thanks again, all!

Just a bit of info heard through the mechanical code grapevine from your neighbor across the pond. Wisconsin officials are in the process of writing codes and laws that will greatly effect the installation and use of non ASME rated pressurized (sealed) heating systems. You might want to call the main code office in Madison (I assume) and just do a little asking about what codes are for your state. Not saying I agree with what is being contemplated in Wisconsin and elsewhere but I might pay you to do a little research as to what is or is going to be allowed.

 

[logjammed]

Hi Chris, I am an E-classic user in my rookie year of wood burning. I heat an 1877 approx 3000 sq. ft. farm house w/a zone to 2000 sq. ft shop. I have burned no oil this year ! The unit performes well after a slight learning curve. I have a closed loop 140' from the house w/a 40 plate heat exchanger 1' pex lines. Oil furnace is an ancient original coal fired unit w/a beckett burner conversion, forced hot water. I wish i could tell you my wood volume and i am going to try to monitor that more closely,but I will tell you I am burning mostly soft wood and getting easy overnight burns and the majority of my wood for this year and next was delivered to me for free because nobody else wants it (major bonus) and something to be considered. I have approx 13,5k into install w/the majority do it yourself.

 

[dirttracker]

Chris,

I put a Tarm solo 40 in an outbuilding this fall as a replacement for a rusted out OWB. The boiler shares the space with a 500 gal LP tank for hot water storage. I insulated the building to at least R19 and also put the LP tank in a well insulated box. Even during the days in January when it was extremely cold outside, the inside of the shed was comfortably warm. I have ~15 ft of unisulated pipe inside the shed. The heat from the flue when the boiler is running also helps to keep the temperature up in the shed. You should not need to intentionally supply any heat to the boiler area if it is reasonably well insulated.

 

[Tony H]

I have an EKO 40 in a uninsulated metal shed . The pipes are all insulated and the shed still stays fairly warm. I used a metal shed 10 x 12 because it was cheap and fast to install and for the floor I used 4" cinder block over 4" of gravel making it a non permanant and non taxable building. I heat 2000 MOL and DHW with the 40 and would think a 60 or equal Tarm would be a good consideration for 4000.
For the future I might install a larger insulated steel building keeping the cinderblock or gravel floor with more space to use as a heated workshop in the winter but I would just put in a heat exchanger with fan that I could throw some extra heat out with as needed.
I am no heating guru but wondering if the polaris is set so high to make up for it's smallish size to heat 4000sf

JP and Chris I am just south of the border in Illinois near Beloit WI