Hydraulic help wanted

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Dune

Minister of Fire
Picked up a new motor for my splitter yesterday, 10 hp Baldor 1725 rpm single phase for a hundred bucks.
Due to the awesome savings of money on the motor, I feel like I can go all out for the right pump.
The two stage pumps from Northern all seem made for 3600 rpm motors or engines.
Looking for suggestions.
Would I be better off with a smaller two stage pump, geared up with belts and pulleys or should I find a single stage pump tha I can direct-couple?
Thanks for any help.
 
You gonna run a whole processor with that thing? If it's just a splitter, I'd put that one in the shed and get a 2hp 3600rpm that you can use a normal pump on. That 10hp electric is equivelant to at least 15-20hp gas. If you don't have any of the other components yet you might find a high volume pump off of some old equipment and the large hoses, cylinder and valves to go with it. Has anybody ever built a closed center wood splitter?
 
Hi Bejamin, thanks for responding. Perhaps you are not familar with the dune system of mechanical overkill.
Look at my signature line. The splitter already exists and uses a ram from a Cat D-8 dozer.
It will split anything, or shear the wood if I get disoriented and put the log in sideways.
I built it to run off a 5 hp motor, but I am unhappy with the speed. It is agonizingly slow, with the six inch ram.
So, I have the ten horse motor, what is the BEST pump for my needs?
 
Check the pump specs before considering pulleys. Some pumps are not designed for a side load on the shaft and can only be direct coupled.

I see lots of 3pt splitters that run off the tractor's PTO which has 540 RPM.
 
Prolly a dime a piece.
Belts and pulleys might make pump and seals last longer due to slippage when in a tight spot.
Too bad your already set up. I got a tank, motor w/intank pump for sale off a big shop press for sale.
 
LLigetfa said:
Check the pump specs before considering pulleys. Some pumps are not designed for a side load on the shaft and can only be direct coupled.

I see lots of 3pt splitters that run off the tractor's PTO which has 540 RPM.

Ja, easy way to tell is those will have a bolt pattern.
 
If you've got a junk D-8 sitting around why are you asking us which pump to use? Seriously, if I wanted to use a 10hp Baldor, I would find a pump off of a D-8 or a large backhoe-endloader-excavator, just make sure it's a fixed displacement, unless you want to get a closed center valve and use a variable displacement pump. Some machines have dual pumps on the same shaft that you could rig to function as a two stage pump for a quick cycle time.

Beware that approx 10% of PCB production was used in hydraulic fluid into the 70's. Do any of you know if certain hydraulic systems or fluids were more likely to contain PCB than others? I haven't found any information more specific than "hydraulic fluid".

Does the 5hp ever bog down? maybe you'd want to speed up your existing pump or add a second mid pressure pump for the second or third stage to speed up the cycle.
 
you can use any pump on this motor, they don't have to be geared up to 3600 rpm. I would avoid belts and chains and just direct couple it. . gpm output will be half at 1800 rpm as it would be at 3600 rpm. It will be quieter also.
A '28 gpm' pump would be 14 gpm at 1800 rpm .


10 hp at 1800 is equivalent torque to 20 hp at 3600 rpm (hp is torque ft-lbs x rpm / 5252)

HP is ( gpm x psi / 1714)

electric hp is exactly equal to 'gas hp' as hp is a physical term, it has nothing to do with gas or electric. The difference is that an IC engine may only rise in torque about 25% as it lugs down and stalls, but
an electric motor may rise in torque 100% or more, to double its rated torque or more before it overheats. Since torque is what turns the shaft, the electric motor increased torque rise 'feels like'
a gas engine almost twice the hp.


so realistically, you can run any pump that would require up to maybe 30 hp gas engine at 3600 rpm, 15 hp+ at 1800 rpm. Running at 1800 rpm would be half the hp and half the output flow, at the same pressures.

I don't have time to go further right now, but to fully use the hp you have you might want a pump with two separate sections, two outlet ports, not a typical two stage pump. Maybe even a large single section pump. Typically a two stage pump can only be set to about 900 psi before it unloads to low displacement and flow at higher pressure. Most two stage have about 1 to 4 ratios on the outputs, so 28 gpm at high flow unloads to about 7 gpm. Even a '28 gpm' (actual 14 gpm at 1800 rpm) at 900 psi would only be about 7 hp, then 7 hp (actual 3.5) at 3000 psi is only 6 or 8 hp. You could use more pump.



So I would look at a two section pump in surplus center that would use more of your hp.

I will post or send my spreadsheet later.

k
 
benjamin said:
If you've got a junk D-8 sitting around why are you asking us which pump to use? Seriously, if I wanted to use a 10hp Baldor, I would find a pump off of a D-8 or a large backhoe-endloader-excavator, just make sure it's a fixed displacement, unless you want to get a closed center valve and use a variable displacement pump. Some machines have dual pumps on the same shaft that you could rig to function as a two stage pump for a quick cycle time.

Beware that approx 10% of PCB production was used in hydraulic fluid into the 70's. Do any of you know if certain hydraulic systems or fluids were more likely to contain PCB than others? I haven't found any information more specific than "hydraulic fluid".

Does the 5hp ever bog down? maybe you'd want to speed up your existing pump or add a second mid pressure pump for the second or third stage to speed up the cycle.

Thanks again Ben. I totaly understand the desire to find used parts. In this case however, I want to buy the best, new, matched pump for this motor. I am building Splitzilla and only the best will do.

And no, I do not have a junk D-8 laying around. I bought the piston used.
 
kevin j said:
you can use any pump on this motor, they don't have to be geared up to 3600 rpm. I would avoid belts and chains and just direct couple it. . gpm output will be half at 1800 rpm as it would be at 3600 rpm. It will be quieter also.
A '28 gpm' pump would be 14 gpm at 1800 rpm .


10 hp at 1800 is equivalent torque to 20 hp at 3600 rpm (hp is torque ft-lbs x rpm / 5252)

HP is ( gpm x psi / 1714)

electric hp is exactly equal to 'gas hp' as hp is a physical term, it has nothing to do with gas or electric. The difference is that an IC engine may only rise in torque about 25% as it lugs down and stalls, but
an electric motor may rise in torque 100% or more, to double its rated torque or more before it overheats. Since torque is what turns the shaft, the electric motor increased torque rise 'feels like'
a gas engine almost twice the hp.


so realistically, you can run any pump that would require up to maybe 30 hp gas engine at 3600 rpm, 15 hp+ at 1800 rpm. Running at 1800 rpm would be half the hp and half the output flow, at the same pressures.

I don't have time to go further right now, but to fully use the hp you have you might want a pump with two separate sections, two outlet ports, not a typical two stage pump. Maybe even a large single section pump. Typically a two stage pump can only be set to about 900 psi before it unloads to low displacement and flow at higher pressure. Most two stage have about 1 to 4 ratios on the outputs, so 28 gpm at high flow unloads to about 7 gpm. Even a '28 gpm' (actual 14 gpm at 1800 rpm) at 900 psi would only be about 7 hp, then 7 hp (actual 3.5) at 3000 psi is only 6 or 8 hp. You could use more pump.



So I would look at a two section pump in surplus center that would use more of your hp.

I will post or send my spreadsheet later.

k

Thanks. I guess considering the situation I will engage a hydraulic engineer to spec out the perfect pump unless someone has any other suggestions.

I was thinking I would like to use the motor at about 75% to add longevity to the system.

It sounds like single stage it the way to go. I don't understand how two sections is better than one right sized one, especialy for only one circuit.
I could see it if one were to run one small ciruit and then be able to add the two flows to acomplish a giant task when needed.
 
the advantage of two stage is a high range and a low range so to speak. using a lower pressure higher volume stage makes use of the motors horsepower when the pressure is low. think of it like driving around in first gear, you need first gear but that doesn't make first gear the best option. With the right single stage pump you could get a decent cycle time and still have plenty of power with that motor and cylinder but with a two stage pump you could have the same performance with a much smaller motor without overloading it.
 
benjamin said:
with a two stage pump you could have the same performance with a much smaller motor without overloading it.

Or the inverse, tremendous performance from a much larger motor.

I have the much larger motor, I want tremendous performance, Which pump should I use? This one?http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200321059_200321059

Bear in mind, I am trying to make the operation of splitting faster by machine than by hand.

I can't find any specs in the online catalog so I can't figure out whether a ten horse motor will run this pump.
 
Unfortunately I know only enough to get into trouble, and I've never built a splitter so I'm mostly guessing here, but what the heck...

I would guess that pump would work great with a 5hp 3600rpm electric motor or even less depending on the size of your cylinder, if it bogged down you might be able to lower the pressure relief valve, but I really doubt that would happen. The problem is that these cheap two stage pumps are more or less specialized to wood splitters with a small gas engine running at 3600rpm. Your 10hp Baldor has the torque and power to run a big cylinder like the one you have both fast and powerfully with a big enough two stage pump, but I think you need one bigger than this to get the speed you want without stepping up the speed of the pump. I'll guess that you'll be looking at several thousand dollars for a new two stage pump of the size you need if you can find one.

I'm thinking of a JD backhoe pump that's rated 35gpm at 2,700 psi and 2,000 rpm, or a Pettibone pump that has two sections with 1" outlets each, something like that is what I'd be looking for. Splitzilla wants the pump off of that D-8, or bigger, bulldozers aren't exactly known for responsive hydraulics.

Maybe somebody can suggest a hydraulics shop that you could talk to to get some professional advice.
 
Wow, thanks for the enlightenment. I guess Northern is just selling all cheap crap now. I guess I kind of forgot that. Guess I'll head over to surplus sales and see what they have. Thanks.
 
actually, I do design hydraulic circuits for a living. www.loram.com

registered Mech Eng, FPS certified FLuid power engr, ;farm boy who built lots of stuff over a few decades, and trying to help out with hydr design. most people can do the mechanical pretty easy, the hydr is a different world. this is way simple, but realize it is new territory to most homeowners.

glad to help, I can add some more later, but have been out of town and not time to run any calcs. some evening this week.

kcj
 
kevin j said:
actually, I do design hydraulic circuits for a living. www.loram.com

registered Mech Eng, FPS certified FLuid power engr, ;farm boy who built lots of stuff over a few decades, and trying to help out with hydr design. most people can do the mechanical pretty easy, the hydr is a different world. this is way simple, but realize it is new territory to most homeowners.

glad to help, I can add some more later, but have been out of town and not time to run any calcs. some evening this week.

kcj

Thanks. I a presently considering a two stage, 28 gal/minpump. I apreciate any input.
 
This is purely anecdotal so take it for what it is worth. I have a 15 year old off the shelf Northern 16 gpm 2 stage that has the same part number as the current one on their website. I run it with an old 5hp 220V 3400 rpm motor off a compressor with a rotted tank directly coupled with a Lovejoy. This seems to be about right. With the big fat blunt wedge on the splitter, I can stall the motor and have tripped the 15 AMP breaker a handful of times during the course of splitting 15 cord with it so far. Again, purely anecdotal as this was what I could get my hands on as opposed to an optimized design experiment.
 
Hey Dune - Utilize Kevin as much as he is willing. I have been involved with many discussions with Kevins input. He doesn't miss a beat.

Jags take - using an 1800 rpm motor will push you away from the "standard" 2 stage pumps - UNLESS you are willing to use a jack shaft config that will allow you to raise output rpm to the 3600 range. A jack shaft should be used for ALL belt applications with the standard 2 stage splitter pumps. They are NOT designed to take side pressure. With the largest of the "normal" pumps being a 28 gpm on the low pressure side and halving that to 14 gpm (because of 1800 rpm) using a 6" ram - it ain't gonna be impressive at all.

Now for the real kicker: using a single stage pump your 10hp Elec. motor and running a system pressure of 2500 psi (pretty normal range for a splitter), you can only pull about 6-7 gpm max. Again - pretty crappy performance on a 6" ram. If you want to play with the numbers, go here: http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulic.htm and about half way down the page you will find a calc. to figure "HP to Drive a Pump".

Solution: 10 hp elec. to jack shaft with 1:2 ratio, connected to a 28 gpm two stage pump with a lovjoy connector. You will turn the pump at the optimum speed (3600 rpm) and have the HP to pull it will out maxing the motor out. 28 gpm pump pushing a 6" ram will have a rate of 228 inches of forward motion per min (thats 19ft per min, or about a 6 sec extension time for a 24" push). It will return even faster.

I hope all my math was right. :)
 
Thanks Jag, that was kind of what I was thinking originaly. I don't mind building a jackshaft, I've done it before when it was worth it.

I'll certainly hold off making any moves till Kevin (hopefully) chimes in again.
 
jags has the right math.

Some day I will write up more and show why a single stage pump doesn't work well, and a couple of two section pump combinations that use the power more efficiently (more speed) but I think that is beyond what you need. Right now, time is squeezed and I have cut and pasted some stuff. Limited on character size of file, will be two or more parts.

Do you know Excel? I can send you a very easy spreadsheet.

First, reviewing the basics:
Terms: The long thing is a cylinder, not a ram. The chromed thing sticking out is a rod, also not a ram. Ram is a certain type of single acting cylinder with no piston seals, only seals in the tube, like a snow plow cylinder. The size of a cylinder is measured as the Bore, the ID not the OD, of the tube that the piston pushes in. Smaller cylinders usually have about ¼ inch thick walls, largers ones or heavy duty ones ¼ to ½ or more thick walls. Rod is measured as diameter, and stroke is the distance the rod end actually moves.

Area of a cylinder is pi x r x r
Since radius is bore/2, area is (pi x bore x bore)/4, pi is 3.14159….
So, cylinder push area is .785 x bore x bore
Rod side steel area is the same formula for area of a circle.
Rod side net area to pull is bore area minus the rod steel area.

Force is pressure times area. Pump gpm and engine hp have nothing to do with it.
2000 lbs force per ton, so force (tons) is (.785 x bore x bore x pressure )/2000

For your 6 inch bore cylinder, area is 28.27 in2 push.
At 500 psi 7 tons
At 1000 psi 14 tons
At 2500 psi 35 tons
At 3000 psi 42 tons That takes some structure and steel.

Off topic, but advertisers numbers are optimistically high usually. They often rate the splitter at 3200 or 3500 psi when the relief valve settings are maybe 2500 or 3000 psi.

Flow doesn’t increase force, it just gives you speed.
Flow out of a pump is (pump size in cubic inches/rev x rpm that it is turning) / 231 cubic inches per gallon
If specs are in cc/rev, 16.39 cubic centimeters = 1 cubic inch.
Actual flow is maybe 85-90% of the theoretical flow due to internal leakages.


Volume it has to fill to make the piston move is the area in the cylinder times the stroke. That is cubic inches.
231 cubic inches per gallon.
60 seconds per minute.
Taking pump output divided by volume of the cylinder and converting units gives the cycle time.
Longer or shorter cylinder strokes just change the cycle time in proportion to the stroke. Longer stroke, more volume, longer time.


Flow times pressure is horsepower
(gpm x psi)/1714 is theoretical hp, but use (gpm x psi ) /1500. It is easier to remember, and it accounts for mechanical and volumetric efficiencies well enough for this use.

Gas engines only rise about 25% in torque as the rpm droops, then they stall out. That means the sizing is more important. Electric motors can rise 100% or more (to twice rated torque) IF it is intermittent enough that it doesn’t overheat the windings. They will handle the peak high pressure spikes much better, but the continuous heat load must be accounted for.
On a log splitter, I would design to pull the motor to about 14 to 15 hp at peak hp as you won’t be there very often. Your motor would also probably run 12-13 hp continuously for many hours and not exceed its life. Depends on the service factor rating.
Speed of the motor also varies with load. Synchronous speed would be 1800. Any resistance at all requires a ‘slip’ to get the magnetic torque in the armature. Typically motors are rated at 1750 or 1725 but it doesn’t make any difference. Same motors, same curve, just how much load is picked.

Much as I don’t like the mechanical jackshaft idea, this is one case where it is the best solution. I don’t know of a two stage pump big enough for what you can do, and putting together a double stack with separate unloading and check valves is more complicated.
Chains will be loud and maintenance intensive but probably necessary. Timing (toothed) belt drive would be best but takes some $$ and design. V belt probably won't handle it, but a dual belt might. Go to Dodge or Gates websites or similar for belt design data.


If you use chain, use a tooth or so off of a direct 2:1 ratio, and a multiple of pitches in the chain so the same chain pitch does not see the same sprocket tooth over and over. Longer drive train life.
You definitely want the pump driven by a jackshaft so the front bearing does not see the side loading of the belt or chain drive. Most are not designed for side loading of the drive.
 
A Barnes ’28 gpm’ pump is .465 cubic inch per rev in the small section, 1.395 in the large section, and 1.86 when combined. At 3450 rpm (assuming your motor speed times a two to one speed increase ratio), the pump will be about 26 gpm at combined flow, and 6.4 gpm on small section high pressure flow.
6.4 gpm at 3000 psi relief valve (that is BIG tonnage remember) is about 14 hp. That would be very intermittent peaks.
26 gpm at 500 to 750 psi is 10 to 14 hp. I would set the unloading at 500 psi and try it. If your particular working cycle and how fast you move wood is such that the motor has lots of cooling time, increase the setting to 550 or 600 psi. It will give you more pressure/force at the cylinder before the pump unloads to low speed. As long as the motor doesn’t overheat the windings, you can run more than 10 hp peaks.

26 gpm on 6 inch bore, assuming 24 inch stroke, is 6.6 seconds out. Assuming a 3 inch rod, it would be about 5 seconds to retract.

The 28 gpm two stage will be the simplest for you to work out the circuitry. I bought one on ebay for $35 because no one knew what it was, but you probably will spend closer to $350. The larger issue is that high flow makes the whole system quite spendy: you get out of the normal mass produced (thus cheaper) 15 gpm stuff into components that are harder to find. But it will be worth it. With that cylinder, you want lot of flow.

I don’t have time to get into line sizing but it is in the spreadsheet. Your suction and pressure lines to pump have to handle 26 gpm. The suction line should be at least 1.5 inches ID, preferably 2 inches. The pump may have a port smaller than what the pump mfr even recommends for line sizing. That is common in the hydr industry. Sigh…… Suction hose has no wire braid (doesn’t need as the pressure is low) but must have a large spiral wire reinforcement molded into the layers to resist collapsing under suction vacuum, especially at cold startup.
Suction strainer, if you use one, should be at least 40 gpm ‘rated’. Most mfr data is optimistic and at higher pressure drops and thinner fluids than I think realistic. If you use a strainer, I would go very large to minimize the pressure drops.
Pressure line from pump to the valve should be ¾ inch ID. 1 inch would be nice, but I would be content with ¾ ID.

Now it gets a bit trickier. With a 6 x 3 cylinder, the area of the closed side compared to the rod side is about 1.3 ratio. This means when 26 gpm goes into the closed side, 26/1.3 or 20 gpm comes out the rod side port, through the valve and back to tank. All well and good.
However, when retracting, 26 gpm into the rod side pushes 26 x 1.3 = 34 gpm out of the closed side port, through the valve, filter, and back to tank. So the control valve, the CL side hose, and the return lines and the filter have to be sized for at least 34 gpm, not 26 gpm.
That means preferably 1 inch ID hose from the cylinder to the valve. ¾ is workable, but velocity is high. ¾ and 1 inch pressure hose gets spendy in consumer channels.

Control valve has to be large enough for 26 gpm in, 35 gpm out, at a reasonable pressure drop. Most splitter valves that are ‘rated’ at 25 or 30 gpm will have quite a pressure drop. Pressure drop that does not do work burns fuel, and more importantly creates heat in the system that has to be dissipated by the tank or cooler. A pilot operated check valve can be used to send flow directly from cylinder to tank without going through the control valve. That works well with high flow circuits, but is overkill here.
Adaptors and fittings, JIC/SAE 37 degree flare or oring face seals. Adaptors oring boss. Get away from tapered pipe threads ASAP when you can.

Return line hose I would go up to 1-1/4 or 1-1/2. That can be fabric braid hose, or wire reinforced suction hose, so it is cheaper to go larger here than it is on pressure lines.
Return filter, a must, needs to handle 34 gpm at low enough pressure drops to still be filtering efficiently. You want the pressure drops low, and the line velocity low as the fluid goes into the tank. Sometimes a larger diffuser is used inside the tank to control the return flow.
 
Tank size: the old industrial rules of thumb of tank = 1 to 2 to 3 times pump flow aren’t necessarily applicable. Those were assuming fixed pumps with minimal filtering and cooling. If you design an efficient circuit to minimize heat generation, use good return filter for contamination control, and handle return flow into the tank properly to get time to release air from the fluid as it goes through the tank, the tank can be smaller. For a sloppy tank and circuit, I will suggest 20-30 gallons tank. For a good circuit and tank, 15-20 gallons should be fine. If there is a cooler in the circuit, 10-15 gallons probably would work.
There are a lot of other nuances about vibration isolation, routings, service points, tank design, fill and breather, etc that I can’t go into now. Someday it will be on a website……

So, here is what I would do, if you have enough $$ to maximize the performance of the system.
-10 hp electric motor, 1725 rpm
-6 inch bore cylinder, assumed 3 inch rod and 24 inch stroke.
-28 gpm Haldex barnes pump
-Roughly 2:1 speedup ratio from motor, for about 3500 rpm
-Set the relief valve for 3000 psi, for 42 tons
-Set the pump unloading to about 600 psi, for 8.5 tons at high speed.
-Suction hose 1.5 minimum, 2 ID preferred
-Pressure hose to valve ¾ inch
-Control valve honestly rated to 30+ gpm at maybe 100 psi maximum drop
-Hose from valve to CL side of cylinder preferably 1 inch, but ¾ minimum
-Cylinder ports are ???
-Return line hose, filter and tank connections 1.25 or 1.5 inch.
-Tank about 15-20 gallons
-Cost: $$$$, one time Fast, cool, efficient, precision splitter: ‘priceless’
-Aggravation of cheap, slow, overheating system goes on forever.


Always fun to spend other peoples money…..

kcj
 
AWESOME! I have most of the parts in stock. I will get the Barnes 28 gal pump and build a jackshaft. I will also build a 20 gallon tank. I was only planning on 2250 psi for 30 tons (seems like enough force).
The only hitch is the valve with one inch work ports. That sounds expensive. May have to look around for a used one. Thank you very much for the help, everyone, and especialy Kevin J.
 
Hi folks,

Having an electric motor attached to the hydraulic pump, I can attest to their merits. Mine is 1750 rpm , runs a 18" 3.5 inch cylinder at 3000 psi. It splits every thing I can lift on the beam, but it needs a forty amp breaker in the winter time to avoid the breaker tripping because of the by the pump drag and start up amps.

In this discussion, I have not heard a mention of the the wiring needs for a ten horsepower electric motor. The best chart I can find, calls for a 4 gauge wire and a sixty amp breaker for a 7.5 horsepower 220 volt electric. But there are other factors such as temperature and viscosity of the hydraulic oil, and start up drag on pump, especially in a cold climate. These factor substantially increase the amp draw at motor startup. In this 10 horsepower a single phase or three phase motor? If three phase, you will need a converter or have it from your outside line.

Hope this helps, a little
 
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