I cant get my Napolean 1900p to shut down...

[rumme]

Ive already done the modification of adding a longer steel plate so my whole intake air inlet is fully covered by plate steel when I push the air intake rod in, but even when I do that, the fire still burns strongly with high lazy flames.

does this mean I need to put on a exhaust flue with a damper ?

any suggestions ? I cant have a stove that im unable to shut down when needed.

 

[Corey]

Kind of sounds like it. What's your flue set up like...insulated? height? , etc. Sometimes tall (ie 30+ ft), well insulated flues have a tendency to overdraft.

I'm a little confused by 'high lazy' flames. Generally, proper burning is described as 'lively dancing' flames with plenty of fire from the secondary tubes, too. If the flames appear lazy and somewhat translucent as opposed to bright orange/yellow, that could be a sign of air starvation as well. Another thing to note is that the flame won't respond immediately to the air change....it may take a couple of minutes for the stove to 'settle' at a lower burn rate.

 

[rumme]

heres my setup, just installed yesterday :

napolean 1900p , with 2 ft vertical, one 90 % elbow, 3 ft horizontal with proper incline then attached directly to 16 ft of 8x8 square steel chimney .

When I push my air inlet control all the way in, there still are flames going on until the wood burns out. Shouldnt it shut down all the flames within a few minutes ?

 

[snowtime]

No it should not. These stoves are made to give heat at a lower rate when shut down not to go out. Sounds like your stove is working fine. If you think it is getting to hot just do not put as much wood in or wait longer until the coals are almost gone before adding splits.
One other thought even though its a new stove the gaskets might not be set properly. Do the dollar bill test for the door and do the match test for the window gasket. If you have a leak it will keep the fire going strong.

 

[North of 60]

Ive already done the modification of adding a longer steel plate so my whole intake air inlet is fully covered by plate steel when I push the air intake rod in, but even when I do that, the fire still burns strongly with high lazy flames.

does this mean I need to put on a exhaust flue with a damper ?

any suggestions ? I cant have a stove that im unable to shut down when needed.

That modification you have just done has now turned your new EPA stove into a smoke dragon. Pay close attention to your chimney as it will build up black fuzzy soot fast just like an oil burner starving for air.
Believe me I know. :red: The damper in your outlet may be worth a try. These stoves run hot, but clean.

 

[rumme]

thanks for info...

so these stoves are not meant to have such total control, of the air intake, for the user to be able to shut the stove down by totally closing the air intake , and diminsihing all flames within a minute or so ?

thats interesting, I would think it would be mandatory for any EPA , safe stove, to have that capability .

 

[rumme]

Ive already done the modification of adding a longer steel plate so my whole intake air inlet is fully covered by plate steel when I push the air intake rod in, but even when I do that, the fire still burns strongly with high lazy flames.

does this mean I need to put on a exhaust flue with a damper ?

any suggestions ? I cant have a stove that im unable to shut down when needed.

That modification you have just done has now turned your new EPA stove into a smoke dragon. Pay close attention to your chimney as it will build up black fuzzy soot fast just like an oil burner starving for air.
Believe me I know. :red: The damper in your outlet may be worth a try. These stoves run hot, but clean.

I just checked my chimney...its 45 degress here and 76 degress inside my house and 9.10 p.m...I have had the air inlet all the way closed for about 2 hours now , and there still is a flame inside the woodstove. I do have some small amounts of white smoke coming from my chimney...

so you have done this mod, and had bad results ?

 

[Todd]

thanks for info...

so these stoves are not meant to have such total control, of the air intake, for the user to be able to shut the stove down by totally closing the air intake , and diminsihing all flames within a minute or so ?

thats interesting, I would think it would be mandatory for any EPA , safe stove, to have that capability .

You would think that, but the EPA is more worried about emissions and figure if the stove can not be shut off it will burn clean and have less chance of creosote deposits and chimney fires. I don't know about your stove but some manufactures have a separate air intake for secondary combustion that has no control at all, so even if you were to modify the primary to shut off the draft it would still pull air through the secondary.

 

[snowtime]

Its the opposite. If you shut down a stove completely it will just smolder. That is one of the things the EPA is trying to prevent. Remember they are trying for a clean burn. All old smoke dragons that we closed down for long burns really just smoldered for hours.

 

[rumme]

I guess my question is :

are these napolean double burn stoves all desinged to not allow the user to shut down the flames within 5 minutes or less, by closing the air intake all they way shut ?

if they are desgined to not allow such control, then I assume the only way to manage such safe/ quick control, is to put a damper in the exhaust flue ?

 

[rumme]

Its the opposite. If you shut down a stove completely it will just smolder. That is one of the things the EPA is trying to prevent. Remember they are trying for a clean burn. All old smoke dragons that we closed down for long burns really just smoldered for hours.

but surely it should make sense for these stoves to be designed to have the capacbility for the user to shut down all flames in the woodstove, via cutting off all intake air...in case of emergencys....or occasions like :

if a person loads the stove up, and then they realize they have to leave the home for several hours, and do not want to let the stove run during that time..


so far, im very happy with the stvoes heat output for the price I paid of $1400 delivered....but I find it odd that the user is not given a adjustment to shut the stove down quickly and effiecntly...

I will say this, the double burn system seem very efficeint....not much wood gets wasted....

 

[rumme]

thanks for info...

so these stoves are not meant to have such total control, of the air intake, for the user to be able to shut the stove down by totally closing the air intake , and diminsihing all flames within a minute or so ?

thats interesting, I would think it would be mandatory for any EPA , safe stove, to have that capability .

You would think that, but the EPA is more worried about emissions and figure if the stove can not be shut off it will burn clean and have less chance of creosote deposits and chimney fires. I don't know about your stove but some manufactures have a separate air intake for secondary combustion that has no control at all, so even if you were to modify the primary to shut off the draft it would still pull air through the secondary.

I beleive that both primary and secondary intakes are feed via the same air inlet cutout underneath the front of the stove..

 

[begreen]

thanks for info...

so these stoves are not meant to have such total control, of the air intake, for the user to be able to shut the stove down by totally closing the air intake , and diminsihing all flames within a minute or so ?

thats interesting, I would think it would be mandatory for any EPA , safe stove, to have that capability .

I believe you mentioned this a few days ago and refused to discuss, no? Even adding a flue damper might not fully shut down the fire. They do not block the flue 100%.

Why do you want to shut the stove down? In the past 12 years of burning I have not had to do that.

 

[North of 60]

Ive already done the modification of adding a longer steel plate so my whole intake air inlet is fully covered by plate steel when I push the air intake rod in, but even when I do that, the fire still burns strongly with high lazy flames.

does this mean I need to put on a exhaust flue with a damper ?

any suggestions ? I cant have a stove that im unable to shut down when needed.

That modification you have just done has now turned your new EPA stove into a smoke dragon. Pay close attention to your chimney as it will build up black fuzzy soot fast just like an oil burner starving for air.
Believe me I know. :red: The damper in your outlet may be worth a try. These stoves run hot, but clean.

I just checked my chimney...its 45 degress here and 76 degress inside my house and 9.10 p.m...I have had the air inlet all the way closed for about 2 hours now , and there still is a flame inside the woodstove. I do have some small amounts of white smoke coming from my chimney...

so you have done this mod, and had bad results ?

Yes Iam guilty. All I burn is pine spruce and poplar and it was hard to get a long burn. You said 2hrs after your turn down. Check it right after and see how long it takes to clean up. This can give you an indicator. To get any fire for me to last through the night
I had to cheat. In our cold climat the upper exposed chimney would almost plug up. Then in a rip roaring fire as THESE STOVES CAN DO, IT GAVE ME SOME SCARY LIGHT OFFS. I was on the roof once a month running a brush after that. I dont want to get beat up over my comments but this was my experience. There is a few on this site that have the napoleon's. Ive seen on many occasion they wished they had more control. Hope they can chime in and share there ways of overcoming this. They are beautiful stoves and work well but not for my conditions. PEACE

 

[rumme]

thanks for info...

so these stoves are not meant to have such total control, of the air intake, for the user to be able to shut the stove down by totally closing the air intake , and diminsihing all flames within a minute or so ?

thats interesting, I would think it would be mandatory for any EPA , safe stove, to have that capability .

I believe you mentioned this a few days ago and refused to discuss, no? Even adding a flue damper might not fully shut down the fire. They do not block the flue 100%.

I refused to discuss ?

not that Im aware of...

Im just shocked that these stoves are not designed to allow the user to shut them down quickly , by using the stoves air intake adjustment , in case of emergency, or convenience.....


I would think such a safety measure would be standard on these stoves and mandatory.

 

[begreen]

Understandable in an extreme climate that there may be exceptions. But burning conditions in the Yukon and Arkansas are polar opposites.

 

[rumme]

So when you go to bed at nite, and you close your air supply down , to keep the stove hot all nite, you still have flames 6 " or more in your stoves ?

 

[begreen]

thanks for info...

so these stoves are not meant to have such total control, of the air intake, for the user to be able to shut the stove down by totally closing the air intake , and diminsihing all flames within a minute or so ?

thats interesting, I would think it would be mandatory for any EPA , safe stove, to have that capability .

I believe you mentioned this a few days ago and refused to discuss, no? Even adding a flue damper might not fully shut down the fire. They do not block the flue 100%.

I refused to discuss ?

not that Im aware of...

Im just shocked that these stoves are not designed to allow the user to shut them down quickly , by using the stoves air intake adjustment , in case of emergency, or convenience.....


I would think such a safety measure would be standard on these stoves and mandatory.

Yes, you're right. You didn't refuse, but made it clear, it was a done deal:

"I had spoken to a few napolean owners who have done the same intake air mod I have done . These owners had commented that they couldnt effectively shut the fire down quickly becvause the air intake rod, when pushed fully in, did not completely close off the air intake cutout.

once again, we keep veeering off course. Ive already done this mod and am happy with what ive done. "



To get back to the crux of the matter. What is the concern here? Why the need to cut off the stove completely?

 

[rumme]

maybe im just misinformed on this aspect of this model stove.

I though damping down the air intake, to the max, before going to bed at nite, should effectively burn the flames out within a short period of time. I thought this would allow embers to burn all nite and shut down any big flames

 

[rumme]

I already mentioned 3 reasons for needing to shut the stove completely down, quickly, and easily..

emergencys ;

having to leave ones home unexpectedyl and not wanting to let the stove run for hours with no one home to monitor it

going to bed...

 

[begreen]

I though damping down the air intake, to the max, before going to bed at nite, should effectively burn the flames out within a short period of time. I thought this would allow embers to burn all nite and shut down any big flames

That is exactly what will happen, except that in order for the coals to burn all night, they have to have some oxygen. Otherwise they would smolder and eventually go out. Fire needs heat, fuel and air.

What will happen with a load of wood for the overnight burn is that:

1) the new wood will catch fire, outgassing intensely. In an old stove this would be a period of a lot of smoke
2) once the wood has started charring, the air supply can be reduced. Generally this is about half-ways closed on many stoves but the air control position will vary with the stove and flue draft.
3) after about 10-30 minutes the air control is closed fully (if there is decent draft). As the wood continues to outgas, strong secondary combustion will continue and the stove temperature will rise. Flue temps will decrease during this more efficient burn period.
4) after about an hour or two, (this depends on the size of the load of wood), the wood will have completely outgassed. Temps will gradually decrease over hours and much less visible flame will be present.

 

[begreen]

I already mentioned 3 reasons for needing to shut the stove completely down, quickly, and easily..

emergencys ;

Have an extinguisher handy. Or perhaps have a plastic bag with wet newpaper in it. Toss on fire. The bag will burn away and the wet newpaper will steam and effectively squelch the fire. Perhaps look into installing an outside air kit with a shut off valve in the air intake?

having to leave ones home unexpectedyl

Does this happen frequently? If so, maybe running a wood stove is not a good idea. A gas or pellet stove can be switched on/off. This is not practical on a regular basis with a wood stove.

and not wanting to let the stove run for hours with no one home to monitor it

Plan ahead.

going to bed...

Many of us start a fire about 10-11pm, specifically for an overnight fire. Having a semi-warm house with hot coals ready to start a fire in the morning is a good thing. But it means understanding the burn cycle of the stove. Try burning several daytimes where you can watch the full cycles of the stove burning cycle before trying an overnight burn. That way you can prepare and rest easy, knowing your stove is doing it's thing safely. Most importantly, burn only dry wood. Together with a proper installation it's the greatest insurance for peace of mind.

 

[rumme]

thanks for responses.....evidently it looks like these stoves are not desinged to allow users to shut them down like I thought.

 

[begreen]

Shutting down implies a complete stop of heat and fire. This is rarely why someone would burn wood. Wood stoves are not an on/off appliances. However, reducing intensity for a longer burn (like overnight) is definitely a good goal for any stove. The old way of the smoke dragon stoves required the user to "crack open the air" a little bit to achieve similar results, but with a whole lot more smoldering and smoke. That means cool smoke which condenses on the flue and causes creosote deposits. Newer stoves try to mitigate this issue and burn cleaner and hotter. You've got a nice stove that burns way cleaner and with less wood. Learn to use it by the manual's directions and I think you will grow to like it.

"For maximum efficiency, when the stove is thoroughly hot,
load it fully to the top of the door opening and burn at a medium
low setting. Maximum heat for minium fuel (optimum
burn) occurs when the stove top temperature beneath the
trivet is between 500°F (260°C) and 600°F (315°C). The bricks
will be nearly all white and the glass mostly clear. The whiteness
of the bricks and the cleanness of the glass are good
indicators of your operating efficiency. Not enough heat is
produced when only one or two pieces of wood are burned or
the wood may not burn completely. A minimum of three pieces
are needed to encase a bed of coals that sustains the fire.
Loosely stacked wood burns quicker than a tightly packed
load. Wood burns in cycles rather than giving a steady output
of heat. It is best to plan these cycles around your household
routine so that only enough coals are left to start the next load.
In the evening, load your stove, at least, a half-hour before
bed to ensure a good fire, hot enough to close the draft control
for an overnight burn. Burn only dry seasoned wood."

 

[Peter B.]

Some other things to consider...

Most flue dampers available are not 'solid', that is, there are holes through the plate that rotates in the flue pipe. Nor does the plate make a tight seal to the wall of the flue pipe itself.

So while it may have a considerable impact on the draft (and fire), the damper will not entirely 'stop' the draft.

Depending on a lot of variables - stove design, available (remaining) air intake, possible leakage from stove seams and gaskets, strength of draft, etc. - closing the intake and the damper on a hot fire with a remaining fuel load in the hope of putting the fire out, or of achieving a slow (dirty) smolder may result in something unexpected - smoke backpuffing from the stove into the house.

Backpuffing can happen when there's enough heat for the wood to outgas, but not enough air for it to burn continuously. The stove will try to draw air from whatever source it can... and when just enough air leaks in, the gas will ignite in a small explosion... pushing smoke out every avenue available.

So, under those conditions, trying to 'shut down' the stove would be a particularly bad idea... whether you were going out or going to bed... because you might come home or wake up to a house full of smoke.

The fact that you're not now able to 'snuff' the fire by fully closing the (modified) air intake control suggests that there is probably leakage into the stove from elsewhere - a 'hidden' secondary system, the window airwash, etc. That being the case, it strikes me that backpuffing might be even more likely.

All that being said, a damper *does* offer some improved control over the rate of burn, as may the air intake modification, but both should (obviously) be used judiciously, and only after learning how your stove burns normally.

As BeGreen commented, wood stoves are not 'on/off' appliances. As such, in certain situations, a stove dictates 'terms of use' to us, rather than the other way around.

Peter B.

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