I need Forum participation. Get your thinking caps on. Lets get together and impact our enviorment

[elkimmeg]

Me I am always scheming My next plan is to get a wood stove in the state house in the governors suite. Part of my grand scheme is to get the state to award tax credits to those who

replace older non EPA stoves with cleaned burning ones. Also to do a little arm twisting to manufactures in a form of a coupon or rebate program to entice owners to make purchases and swaps.

As part of his election campaign our new governor wants to promote developing renewable energy sources, Instead of a wood stove possibly a pellet stove, since New England pellets are

distributed here in Palmer MA. The EPA also has sponsored similar programs in the past in other states. . I know with the incredibly warm weather we are having and fuel pricing edging

down, that stoves are not flying out retailers doors. Here is a way to renew interest and have thousands of new customers. All under the guise of clean responsible burning. Could be a win

win situation for owners retailers , manufactures and our environment. I am willing to bet, other Northeastern states will follow suite, in instituting similar programs.

I also think it is time that MA adopt the EPA stove regulations, many other states have. I have a State Senator willing to introduce the bill.

I think it is about time we all try to be a little more responsible concerning how we treat our environment. After all this is a main theme of Hearth.com

I would appreciate any help or suggestions. Links, further information even help drafting proposals to the powers that be.

A comparison chart of older wood burning stoves vs EPA efficient stoves. A way to document the environmental impact of such a program.

What about guy and gals a proposal put together by members of Hearth.com Not being pushed through by commercial interest, but a proposal by wood burners.
Democracy in its truest form, proposed by the people..

I’m tired talking about it. I want to do something about it. walk the walk, so to speak..

One final note here in the state of Ma forestry coverage now is equal of more than colonial times. There is a lot of wood out there to be cut and processed into energy.

I know with all the building, that does not seem possible, but that’s what I been told. Maybe wood will be recycled and re-used to make pellets or other wood products.

I don’t think we have any mechanism in place to to recycle wood and further save environmental waste. Which in turn makes renewable wood sources even more viable and extend

the amount of usable wood, Plus less pressure and less impact on our existing forest supplies

 

[tutu_sue]

Maybe you can use this as an example - In Denmark, they are offering a cash payout for people to scrap their old stoves: (broken link removed to http://denmark.dk/portal/page?_pageid=374,610566&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL&ic_itemid=929511).

 

[Todd]

Here you go Elk, some info on renewable energy incentives state by state. In Wis you can receive a $150 credit for corn burning furnace.

www.dsireusa.org

 

[webbie]

I don't understand. EPA regs are national. Why does Ma. have to adopt? Any manufacturer in ma. must build stoves to meet EPA and any retailer must sell stoves that are EPA. So what exactly are you lobbying for in that case?

As far as trade-in programs our trade org has gotten a whole bunch of these in various states and regions, and if this is what you want to do I can give you the right contact. It will be much easier for you to do with them behind it because they have experience. They can show the gov. officials what they have done elsewhere, etc,

 

[Shane]

The HPBA would be my suggestion too. The Libby, MT. tradeout went well as far as I know. There was quite a bit of industry participation in that.

 

[elkimmeg]

Craig the EPA regs are less important as you pointed out, however like the state of CA they inspect older stoves upon transfer of home ownership to encourage clean burning.
the adopted EPA regs could do this. Should an owner decide he is happy with his current wood stove it would be grandfathered, for continued use as long as he owns the home
should he sell it the EPA regs would be implemented. Its not creating a undo hardship the stove could be removed . Its not like he has to purchase a new one. Part of the Epa adoption is public awareness Bring clean burning front and center.

Craig I am going to exhaust my influence and connection to follow this through. For ones that may not know me I usually get things done
Another part of why I doing this is to promote safety This last week on the forum got me thinking about how many other unsafe installations exist. New replacement installations would or should promote safer installations. The connector pipe out the window got me thinking.

Another part of what I hope comes out of this, is is education the public to safe clean burning habits. An information program . Since the building inspectors fall under the dept of public safety pamplets already exist ,or the means to edit and create more updated info for the public.
We are doing this every day here. I have seen the trend here, progress every year, where installations are safer better suited to get stove performance and heat to the living space

Craig can you stick note this and let it run awhile.

 

[CountryGal]

You have probably already seen this, but here's a link to: (broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/woodstoves/how-to-guide.html)

 

[elkimmeg]

You have probably already seen this, but here's a link to: (broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/woodstoves/how-to-guide.html)

my post I can hyjack it.. CountryGal how it going with your new toy have you used it yet?

 

[CountryGal]

Elk, we have! I pitched a fit (well, not really--he was in bed so it wouldn't have done any good) the other night when I went to start a fire and had no kindling! Hahaha! We have it out on the back deck (covered) for the season and will put it in the shed for storage later. Paul loves it and it is so fast and easy turning our splits into kindling. Almost makes me want to harvest some wood. LOL!

 

[elkimmeg]

Who knew it would be so much fun.

 

[jimkelt]

>:-(

 

[CountryGal]

Burning Issues

Whoa! Have you heard about this outfit? I was doing some searching on pre-epa/post-epa stoves and came across a document online where Michelle McMorrow was talking about the dangers of wood stoves at a New Jersey hearing.



Just some of her comments:

17 USEAP Office of Air Quality Planning and

18 Standards identified other air pollutants that

19 are grave concern, carbon monoxide and

20 particulate matter. I think we all pretty well

21 know about carbon monoxide, but I think a little

22 more attention needs to be paid to particulate

23 matter. The tiny particles and unburned

24 materials suspended in the air, they're so small

25 that they pass by the lining in the nose and the


1 throat, and they become embedded in the lining of

2 the lungs. Most wood smoke particles actually

3 average less than one micron which allows them to

4 remain airborne for as long as three weeks. Wood

5 smoke in particular from a fireplace or wood

6 burning stove or even camp fire, contains

7 creosote, soot and ash. And these particles are

8 so small they filter into your home even when you

9 have your window closed and your doors closed

10 tight. Inhalation of this particulate matter 2.5

11 causes coughing, irritation, scarring and damage

12 to the lungs. It contributes to cancers and to

13 heart decease and to changes in DNA which can

14 lead to autoimmune disease. Particulate

15 pollution is also thought to be a contributing

16 factor these days to sudden infant death

17 syndrome. The highest PM levels measured

18 consistently result from the burning of solid

19 materials. Smoke from wood combustion is

20 entirely in this range. In the packet that I

21 will supply you with, there's a chart of average

22 emission of fine particles. The sources in that

23 chart are broken down in an hourly fashion. But

24 if you take a look, you'll see that gas furnace

25 creates particulate matter, 0.001 grams per hour



1 and in 24 hours that's a .024 grams total. An

2 oil furniture in one hour creates .02 grams for a

3 total of a daily production of .48 grams. A

4 certified wood stove, which the EPA currently is

5 supporting, creates 8.2 grams per hour or a total

6 of 196.8 grams in a given day. And a

7 non-certified wood stove of which we have the

8 most in this state, I'm sure, is 15.6 grams per

9 hour or 374.4 grams in a day. Summary of

10 emission characterization and a noncancer

11 respiratory effects of wood smoke and EPA

12 document that is listed EPA 435-4, indicated that

13 for children in homes where wood is burned and

14 living in communities where wood smoke is

15 prevalent, the smoke causes a decrease in lung

16 capacity and increases in asthma attack.

 

[kevinmoelk]

Sounds like typical statistical scare tactics to me CountryGal.


Back on topic a little... There are a lot of angles here. For discussions sake, I will attempt to be brief without any unnecessary elaboration. I agree with the efforts, but rather focus on saying "yeah I agree, it's a great idea" I will try to add some fuel to the discussion.

First of all, there has to be incentive. What is the incentive for law makers to create and/or better enforce laws that govern clean burning wood appliances? There has to be some pressure here, and not reliance upon the good will of our politicians. (chuckles) Political pressure comes down to votes or money. If someone could demonstrate that there were votes to ge gained by passing clean burning laws, or laws covering grandfathering, etc. then politicians will seek out those votes. Maybe pressure from environmentalists "demanding" that a woodstove program be enacted. On the money side, that's a little tougher. Somehow it has to be shown that the said regulations are saving money or making money. Saving money by perhaps creating safety, less fires, less asthma in kids, etc. Making money? Hummm, has to be some way to tie all of these programs into the tax structure. As someone else mentioned too, having governments recognize wood as a renewable fuel can only help in the long run.

Retailers and manufacturers. Well this is pretty straight forward. Money, money, money. Any regulations requiring old stoves be taken out or upgraded will help the bottom line. But here is also a chance for retailers and manufacturers to really shine. To do what the automotive industry has failed to do unvoluntarily. To truly BE environmentallly responsible companies, and not just jumping on political bandwagons and soapboxes touting concern for renewable energy and environmental impact. Step up to the plate and give some strong rebates and work hand in hand with local governments to help implement these stove changeout programs.

Consumers are the keystone, and the toughest area of concern. While there will be those who see the benefits of wood burning, many people still want to just walk over to the thermostat and turn it up. Non-believers have to be convinced, and usually the best way to do that is an argument for ROI. If a woodstove or other wood appliance can save money then more people will be attracted to them. Particularly in the face of the rising costs if fossil fuels. Large manufacturers rebates and tax credits will certainly help. In the end of the day wood burning has to be AS attractive or MORE attractive vs. the competition.

A simple national advertising campaign could really help to boost the wood stove image, increase sales, and get people thinking about clean air and wood burning. I think there are many consumers who are uneducated. And as I was, under the impression that their old metal box from the 70's or 80's is just as good as a new stove. People need to know how far the clean burning technology has come. Can you imagine an advertisement for woodstoves while watching the super bowl? That may be a stretch, but you get the idea.

Well hopefully I've sparked some discussion.

Where's Winston? He'd probably advise something like throwing a pipe bomb into the state senate.

-Kevin

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Our county wood recycling spot has thousands of cords ground up and composted each year. Even before I was burning I used to think it was a shame they couldn't give it to the less fortunate to heat their homes with. Or even sell it for county funds so they could lower our taxes. I'd really love it if they could lower fuel taxes. Then the politicians could give up the game of giving "heating subsidies" to those who can't afford it because of the stupid taxes!

Matt

 

[Gooserider]

As you might guess Elk, I'm VERY MUCH OPPOSED to such an idea. I do not consider it to be an appropriate use of government powers, or taxation.

Taking a home's stove away at time of sale is still a taking without compensation as the presence of the stove is arguably a value add for the price of the home. You're going to have a hard time selling "We heat with wood and save lots of money, but we can't let you have the stove, just look at the nice hole in the wall you get instead...."

It is also a GROSS misuse of gov't power to subsidize one form of energy over another, as it distorts the market place and discourages innovation. Those "rebates" don't magically appear out of noplace, they are TAKEN from other taxpayers, and I don't think it is right to FORCE my neighbor to pay one cent towards the purchase of my stove. (Nor should I pay for his furnace, etc)

Government is FORCE, and nothing else. If it isn't moral for YOU to force a person to do something they aren't willing to do, I don't believe that it is moral to use the government to do it for you.

Gooserider

 

[elkimmeg]

We have a new Governor spouting renewable energy what better way to set the tone or example than to participate in the program a wood-stove in the state house delivering the state affairs address with a crackling fire in a wood stove the foreground. It sends the message of leadership by example What would the manufacture give for that exposure? Mike got your ears on , Dale or Dane what would you give to have it your product as a Governor announces the kick off of such a program Why not prefect and clean up a practice that is already in existence since colonial times dating back to the Pilgrims, wood heating.
There are not many politicians that want to be labelled killjoys in cleaning up our enviorment. How many want to be against compromising public safety.
How many are willing to jump on the band wagon of renewable energy while decreasing dependency of fossil fuel and reducing enviormental impact.
Would you want to be a politicians explaining that to your constituents how you killed a win win situation

Here is my pitch. Right now there is a reporter for the Fall River news paper sitting in my living room , willing to do a story on just the very subject we are discussing, a college school mate of my wife. the pitch is do you want to sit by with your head stuck in the sand of join forces now. Monday I will be contacting the head of public safety in the state, the same guy that attended my seminar to the 351 towns/ municipalities in Ma building inspectors. Covering wood stove safely and inspections. how good would it look for the public safety official to be pro active.
I''m linning up the ducks in a row From there I will push to talk to the powers that be. In my town is also a reporter that works for channel 5 Boston ABC affiliate Guess who remodeled their home? Her husband was a selectman that hired me many years ago. Now a state Senator. Bostons Fox affiliates news anchor I build her home and from time to time repair it.

How do you think I got the red carpet treatment from VC I convinced they it is better to have me on their side. I need help and imput Its like are you with me or not. at this point I feel it is grass roots movement that I plan to push
Did you know Hearth.com has 2.5 mill visitors a year. This is not a pipe dream to me I'm going to exhaust all good will in my past. I don't care who takes credit if sucessfull ,as long as us wood /pellet burners are recognised as environmentally friendly

Craig is Hearth.com with me?

 

[kevinmoelk]

As you might guess Elk, I'm VERY MUCH OPPOSED to such an idea. I do not consider it to be an appropriate use of government powers, or taxation.

Taking a home's stove away at time of sale is still a taking without compensation as the presence of the stove is arguably a value add for the price of the home. You're going to have a hard time selling "We heat with wood and save lots of money, but we can't let you have the stove, just look at the nice hole in the wall you get instead...."

It is also a GROSS misuse of gov't power to subsidize one form of energy over another, as it distorts the market place and discourages innovation. Those "rebates" don't magically appear out of noplace, they are TAKEN from other taxpayers, and I don't think it is right to FORCE my neighbor to pay one cent towards the purchase of my stove. (Nor should I pay for his furnace, etc)

Government is FORCE, and nothing else. If it isn't moral for YOU to force a person to do something they aren't willing to do, I don't believe that it is moral to use the government to do it for you.

Gooserider

Interesting take Goose.

Homes can easily be re-evaluated for the lack of stove. If the seller knows the home cannot be sold without a proper stove, then either the seller will replace the stove, or remove it all together. Alternatively, the buyer, knowing he/she will need a new stove will simply calculate the cost of a new stove into the bid of the home.

When I bought my home, I knew full well I was not going to keep the fake brick linoleum floor in the kitchen, or the cheesy plain window trim, that I would need to re-roof the home, etc. Adjustments are made all the time, and not a big deal IMO.

In terms of a government TAKING away? Really? Governments incentivise and subsidize things all the time. Your argument is on par of those without children who complain about having to pay for someone elses childs education. Why should I have to pay when I don't have kids? The answer is that education is for the greater good. One days those kids will be working, and will be your neighbors, etc. Better make damned sure they are educated. Relating the argument for clean burning technology, whether it be fossil fuel or anything else is valid. Clean burning engines, appliances, etc. are for the greater good of the people.... not to mention the environment.

Anti-goverment sentiments crack me up. The US is the most free, has a great amount of wealth, pays minimal taxes when compared to other nations, etc, etc. There is a clear trade off for doing whatever you want, and living in a modern society. As far as having the best of both worlds (least government intervention and modern) there's no better place on earth in my opinion. Love it or leave it. If you want total freedom with no taxes or any rules or regulations you can go live in some 3rd world country. Just don't expect to receive the most modern medical treatment when you break your arm or have the fire department come over when your home is burning down.

-Kevin

 

[elkimmeg]

As you might guess Elk, I'm VERY MUCH OPPOSED to such an idea. I do not consider it to be an appropriate use of government powers, or taxation.

Taking a home's stove away at time of sale is still a taking without compensation as the presence of the stove is arguably a value add for the price of the home. You're going to have a hard time selling "We heat with wood and save lots of money, but we can't let you have the stove, just look at the nice hole in the wall you get instead...."

It is also a GROSS misuse of gov't power to subsidize one form of energy over another, as it distorts the market place and discourages innovation. Those "rebates" don't magically appear out of noplace, they are TAKEN from other taxpayers, and I don't think it is right to FORCE my neighbor to pay one cent towards the purchase of my stove. (Nor should I pay for his furnace, etc)

Government is FORCE, and nothing else. If it isn't moral for YOU to force a person to do something they aren't willing to do, I don't believe that it is moral to use the government to do it for you.

Gooserider

goose you do not want to be on the negative side of this discussion. You are promoting the scorched earth approach for monetary personal gain By allowing, that old not that safe poluting beast, to contiune poluting. Are saying it is ok to breath in their plumes of smoke because it is there right. The premis of government is to protect its citzens. Thats what tax dollars should be doing, enhancing the quality of out lives. If government does not educate the public who will? Are not public schools the same schools you attended supported by tax $$$. Are you saying we should not educate the public using tax $$$ then please offer a viavable plan to to educate and clean up our enviorment. Talk is cheap I trying to work within the system to better your quakllity of life the enviorment the air you breath

 

[hearthtools]

Hi folks
I’m a board member of the HPBAPacific (the California Affiliate of the HPBA)
www.hpbapacific.org.

I have been involved with many stove change out programs in the past.
We are getting ready to kick of one of the biggest one yet in Central California.
Sponsored by the HPBApacific and the San Joaquin Air Control district.
I’m not going to go into details yet for we don’t want the Media to get hold of this until the big announcement next month.
But homeowners who change out their NON 1990 EPA stoves or PUT an insert in their fireplace can save up to $800 with rebates and incentives from Dealers/Manufactures and the Propane Association through the change out program.
We just finished a Smaller Test program for Sacramento County air District.
This is all im going to say about this for now. But here is our Change our association’s website
(broken link removed)

For you asking about EPA the EPA is a Federal Agency that Overlooks Several
Air Pollution Control boards. Each Control board has there own set of rules and Regs that fit in with the type of area the Air board is in.

On with Stove removals at time of sale of a home.

The San Joaquin Air Control district that is the larges Air district in California and covers most of central California. www.valleyair.org
This is a GOOD program.
I look at it like Smogging homes like we SMOG cars now when we sell them.
The law is not that we CAN NOT have wood stoves
Just have homes with newer clean burning stoves that put our much less pollution.
An old PRE 1990 stove will put out as much as 60 Grams of pollution.
NEW EPA stoves MUST put out LESS than 9 grams.

This is better for everyone and making homes much safer.
I have seen so many stoves that we have removed for Home sales that have been a lot like the stoves we have talked about on this thread. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/5617/
Were housed were just waiting to burn down.

For more info on this 4901 rule go to
http://www.valleyair.org/rules/currntrules/r4901.pdf

 

[Mike Wilson]

Someone's using Spell-Check.

I never knew Iced Tea smelled so good...

-- Mike

 

[restorer]

Where's the Washington contingent? I understand they have some of the most restrictive laws regarding use of stoves. Sorry, I am not too familiar, but my sister in Spokane wanted a wood/pellet heater and the rules were so restrictive, she couldn't afford the retro fit of the chimney and the qualified stove. I understand it is so restrictive, it's hard to sell a non EPA stove.

 

[kevinmoelk]

Uncle Rich.... slightly off topic, but here goes. WA state requires 4.5 grams or less per hour. WA also requires an OAK on all installations, though a variance can be received. WA says stoves are grandfathered, but even if you move the same stove within the same structure, that is considered a "new" installation, and hence the rules above apply. As for the sale of non EPA stoves, people do it all the time. The reality of it is that people install old stoves, and get away with it, but yes it is against the law.

-Kevin

I'm sure chimneysweep or BG will be along soon if I messed up the rules.

 

[hearthtools]

Where's the Washington contingent? I understand they have some of the most restrictive laws regarding use of stoves. Sorry, I am not too familiar, but my sister in Spokane wanted a wood/pellet heater and the rules were so restrictive, she couldn't afford the retro fit of the chimney and the qualified stove. I understand it is so restrictive, it's hard to sell a non EPA stove.

Yes Oregon and washington has some strong rules but not 100% against wood burning
A lot of great Wood stove manufactures are in the state of washinton. Like Travis IND. that makes Lopi, Avalon and FPX

and California and Nevada have some tough rules also but not for the whole state.
Each Area has there own air board

In most areas of the country you can NOT put in a wood stove or fireplace AT ALL.
and in some areas you CAN ONLY put a stove in if it is EPA Phase II certified June 1, 1990 compliant.

Here is the Text from our Local air board rule.

5.0 Requirements
5.1 Sale of Wood Burning Heaters

[b}5.1.1 No person shall sell, offer for sale, supply, install, or transfer a new wood
burning heater unless it is EPA Phase II Certified, or is a pellet-fueled
wood burning heater.{b}

5.1.2 No person shall advertise, sell, offer for sale, supply, install, or transfer a
used wood burning heater unless it has been rendered permanently
inoperable, or is EPA Phase II Certified, or is a pellet-fueled wood
burning heater.

5.1.3 Retailers selling or offering for sale new wood burning heaters shall supply
public awareness information with each sale of a wood burning heater in
the form of pamphlets, brochures, or fact sheets on the following topics
listed in sections 5.1.3.1 through 5.1.3.5. Public awareness information
shall be subject to the review and approval of the APCO.

 

[BrotherBart]

WA also requires an OAK on all installations, though a variance can be received.

What's an OAK ??

Outside Air Kit.

 

[elkimmeg]

Lets not loose some major points public awareness to clean safe burning habits This not just goverment here The goverment is only one part of it they issuse ensentives, Manufactures rebates, the people have to want to be more responsible have to want to have a safer installation. They have to want to use less fossil fuel.

This is a way to renew interest in using available wood for heat , again this is not for all.
This will help manufactures and retailers..

All this is, is an extention of what most members practice everyday Our forum enducates What I tryiong to do is take that to another level thats all not just more goverment rules