In response to Sugars question on Europas gasification techniques.

[Fsappo]

Ok, Sugar, and to anyone else interested. Of course, I'll enjoy doing this because I use a Europa, made by Paromax, in my showroom and I also sell them. Any chance to learn more about this technology by way of discussion is good for me and my customers. You asked for links, so I will just include them with a brief description.

This is one that talks about the 94.9% heat exchanger efficiency of the stove using the lower heat value.
(broken link removed)

Here is where they list the 10-1 fuel to air ratio. They are still updating their website. Some of the text talks about 86% efficiency, which was the testing from about 6 years ago. When they re tested the stove this year for the tax credit, it tested at 94.9%
(broken link removed)

The certificate
(broken link removed)

http://www.pelletstove.com/ if you click on efficiency report it shows more

Statistical information was taken from:
'Options to Reduce Emissions from Residential Wood Burning Appliances
Canadian Government Discussion Paper of July 30, 2002'

Table 6: Net efficiency (%) of various wood heating appliances

Note: Net efficiency rests on combustion efficiency and heat transfer efficiency.


Aside from the obvious savings
by heating with an efficient Dell-Point
pellet stove, it also means that
a charge of fuel will last longer and there is
less unwanted exhaust gases and
particulate.

In other words:
* More heat for you dollar
* Better for the environment
* Less time cleaning out ash
* Add fuel less frequently








Try the Fuel Cost Calculator to see how much money you can save!

Dell-Point has the only EPA certified pellet stove available. Other pellet stoves have an EPA exemption
which is allowed since they use high air to fuel ratios (normally 35 lbs of air to 1 lb of fuel). This allows
their high amount of particulate levels to be distributed over more air, allowing for this exemption.
The Dell-Point 'Gas-a-fire' burn system uses 8 lbs of air to every 1 lb of fuel and still maintains low particulate levels
(which means that's it's far more efficient). Furthermore, there is more heat going to you, and
far less (up to 50%) going out the exhaust!

Type of Stove Net Efficiency (%)
Conventional wood stove 54%
Catalytic wood stove 68%
Non-certified pellet stove 33.4% to 70.5%
Dell-Point certified pellet stove 86%
Masonary heater 54% to 65%


Dell-Points Patented EPA certified Technology:
As tested by Canada Advanced Combustion Labs Government of Canada

Calculation of staciometric products actual products and efficiency

Unit: DC-2000 Burn Rate: 1.08 Kg/h

Fuel: Wood pellets (B415.1 std values) Date: 98-11-03

ULTIMATE Dry Calorific Value (MJ/kg) 19.81 8517 BTU/lb)
ANALYSIS (dry basis) Fuel Moisture (% wet basis) 6.3 6.7 % db)
Carbon 48.73 As-Fired C.V. (MJ/kg) >18.56 7980 BTU/lb)
Hydrogen 6.87 Flue Gas Values: % Combustible in Ash: 0
Sulphur 0 % CO2 9.5 from O2: 9.46 CONVERSION FACTORS:
Nitrogen 0 % O2 10.8 from CO2: 10.75 Mj/kg = BTU/lb*.002326
Ash 0.5 % CO 0.015 F = 9/5*C+32 C+ 5/9*(F-32)
Oxygen 43.9 Flue © 93 199 F MC(wb) = MC(db)/(100+MC (db))
Total 100 Amb't © 20 68 F MC(db) = MC(wb)/(100-MC (wb))
LOSSES BTU/lb BTU/lb
Air & Flue Gas From co2 From o2 dry fuel as fired
% Excess Air 104.63 105.57 dfg 401 376 4.71
Comb'n air (Sft3/lb fuel) 154.5 155.2 Fuel H2O 75 70 0.88
Dfg (lb/lb dry fuel) 12.8 12.9 H2 688 644 8.08
Tfg (lb/lb dry fuel) 13.5 13.5 CO 8 7 0.04
Dfg (Aft3/lb dry fuel) 205.2 206.1 Comb. In ash 0
Dfg (Sft3/lb dry fuel) 153.3 154.0 Total Loss 1171 1097 13.70
Tfg (Aft3/lb dry fuel) 223.4 224.3 % Efficiency 86.3
Tfg (Sft3/lb dry fuel) 166.9 167.6
CO (lb/lb dry fuel) 0.002 0.002
Vol fraction H2O in flue 0.081 0.081
Products of Combustion at Stociometric
STOCIOMETRIC VALUES lb/lb Sft3/lb
Stociometric Air Req'd(lb/lb dry fuel) dry fuel dry fuel
Carbon (32/12.011*.01*C) 1.298 Stociometric CO2 1.786 14.57
Hydrogen (8/1.008-.01-H) 0.545 Stociometric N2 4.663 59.75
Sulphur (32/32.066*.066*.01*S) 0.000 Stociometric SO2 0.000 0.00
Total 1.844 Total dfg
6.448 74.32
Less )2 in fuel 0.439 Wet products
O2 from air 1.405 H2O (reaction) 0.614 12.23
Associated N2 (76.85/23.15*.02) 4.663 H2O (fuel) 0.067 1.34
Total dry air: 6.067 Total flue gas 7.129 87.89
Stociometric % CO2: 19.6


Tell me if that helps, Sugar

 

[hoverfly]

In time this kind of technology will be required in all pellet stoves. Gasification tech is cool stuff.

 

[Fsappo]

I'll tell you, I'm trying to learn more about it. What I do know, is our Europa in our showroom will out heat a 56K BTU stove from AES while using about 40% less pellets. Anyone who doesnt believe it is welcome to stop by and see it in action. It's truly the most amazing thing I have ever burned biomass in.

 

[Delta-T]

I can attest to the performance of the Europa. It is quite the stove. I bit large for my tastes but very capable. Had one in my showroom several years ago, mostly used it to burn corn. Really cool flame pattern.

 

[MCPO]

OK, Thats two recommendations for the Europa from dealers and a few links to the manufacturers claims and their printed data to view. Personally I`d like to hear from some actual users of the stove out there ?
Or even better a comparison of this stove with a high end unit by another well known brand..
Jamestown Stove Co says they make the most efficient pellet stoves in the world but how can one be sure of that?
I`m not saying any of these claims aren`t true but a manufacturers brochures and printed claims are hardly proof.

 

[doghouse]

Just found this:


(broken link removed to http://www.spaplaceinc.com/dell-point-europa-pellet-stove.html)

 

[Tarbot]

They are still being made. That article is old. I believe Paromax is representing them now. The folks on www.iburncorn.com have some users and info on the stove.

 

[MCPO]

This is what puzzles me : I assume what they are saying below is in stage 2 the stove burns unburned gasses in the secondary burn but they claim in stage 1 the fuel bed is super heated to burn all fuel completely. If all fuel is burned completely then what is left to create a secondary burn?




Flex Fuel Twin Stage Burner

The heart of the Europa is: twin stage burner designed to burn biomass fuels. It burns fuel more efficiently and completely than any other pellet stove on the market.

Stage 1: Fuel bed is super heated to burn all fuels completely.

Stage 2: Unburned gases are released in the burn chamber than a secondary burn is created by injecting oxygen into the upper part of the burner.

Results: 35% more heat from each pound of fuel.

 

[Fsappo]

Just found this:


(broken link removed to http://www.spaplaceinc.com/dell-point-europa-pellet-stove.html)

That information is outdated and incorrect. I contacted these folks 2 weeks ago telling them such. No response of course. The technology in the GF55 regency is nothing like the Europa. Its the same old drop pellets in a tray that has holes in it and blow air thru the pellets that 90% of the stoves out there have.

Like I said, anyone local can come and see the stove in operation. The stove running at 2 lbs per hour of fuel will heat like a 40K btu typical stove on high. The EPA testing of 94.9% heat exchanger efficiency , not combustion efficiency, was done at an independent lab. It was also done using the lower heat value.

I'm not out to convince anyone that the stove is amazing. A consumer can find that out for themselves if they were actually interested.

Sugar/pook wanted to see a link that showed a 10-1 air ratio, so I provided one for him.

I did have 2 customers of mine swap out older pellet stoves for the Europa. One swapped out a Bixby and went from 6 tons per year to 4 tons the first year with the Europa during last winter which went on forever. Another swapped out a 4 year old 56K btu stove from AES and went from 5 tons per year to 3 tons. Another example, I have a customer in our town that heated a 2200 sf home all of last year on less than 3 tons of fuel.

Of course, I'm a retailer, so I could be lying. But these are real life experiences.

Gasification on pellets has a very similar result as burning wood in a Fisher stove and then burning wood in an epa certified stove. Night and Day.

I'll come back and answer questions best I can if folks have any.

 

[Delta-T]

Franks- When last i saw, the 75 had same motors for auger and combustion fan, is it still so? And I believe there were 2 control boards, still same? I thought it was a neat idea, made for easy trouble shooting by swapping boards or motors. They add thermostat to that bad boy yet? Always like the DC motor thing, and the augers under the burn pot. I do recall ours sounding somewhat like a jet when it was running full out. In some circles thats extra cool.

 

[Fsappo]

One control board, much better motors, super quiet. Sounds like a a very quiet jet when running on full. I'd say its half as loud as our other pellet stoves. One board, easy to work on, works excellent on a thermostat

 

[Delta-T]

Super. We carried the stove when it was marketed by FPI (i thinks that was it), and they sent us some that were not built correctly. They gave us the run around for a while before they fessed up and said they knew they had put faulty motors in them. Kinda left a bad taste in our mouths, so we stopped carrying it. Glad to hear they have raised the bar and are making a quality product. When we were runnig corn in it it had this awesome blue spiral column of flame, just a joy to stare at. Pardon me while I reminisce (sp?).

 

[MCPO]

Just found this:


(broken link removed to http://www.spaplaceinc.com/dell-point-europa-pellet-stove.html)

Like I said, anyone local can come and see the stove in operation. The stove running at 2 lbs per hour of fuel will heat like a 40K btu typical stove on high. The EPA testing of 94.9% heat exchanger efficiency , not combustion efficiency, was done at an independent lab. It was also done using the lower heat value.

I'm not out to convince anyone that the stove is amazing. A consumer can find that out for themselves if they were actually interested.

Sugar/pook wanted to see a link that showed a 10-1 air ratio, so I provided one for him.

I did have 2 customers of mine swap out older pellet stoves for the Europa. One swapped out a Bixby and went from 6 tons per year to 4 tons the first year with the Europa during last winter which went on forever. Another swapped out a 4 year old 56K btu stove from AES and went from 5 tons per year to 3 tons. Another example, I have a customer in our town that heated a 2200 sf home all of last year on less than 3 tons of fuel.

Of course, I'm a retailer, so I could be lying. But these are real life experiences.

Gasification on pellets has a very similar result as burning wood in a Fisher stove and then burning wood in an epa certified stove. Night and Day.

I'll come back and answer questions best I can if folks have any.[/quote



Yeah, burning an old Fisher wood stove and a then a newer EPA certified certainly is like night and day but we`re talking pellets stoves here. Most pellet stoves are as good as the best EPA wood stoves with regards to emissions and probably even less smoke.

What does interest me more is the actual heat exchanger transfer efficiencies. That IMO is the key to overall stove efficiency and where the real improvements lie. It seems a lot of manufactures like to boast about their heat exchanger efficiencies.
I never felt there would be such significant room for combustion efficiencies since pellet product itself is so clean burning and efficient .

Evidently the amount of heat going out the exhaust enters into the equation too.

Regardless, I`m in no way accusing you of anything , but instead trying to poke holes in the theory and claims by the manufacturer and yes, your testimony too. Basically to get more information and first hand experience out of you. I do appreciate your replies , interest , and time. Hopefully you can enlighten us all more with this technology . Maybe we can all expect some important advancements in the next generation of stoves.

 

[dac122]

How do you get the Fuel Bed up to temp so it reaches super heat temp: does it just run at lower efficiency until then, or maybe some kind of electric resistive element?

 

[Fsappo]

You light it with gel. As the fuel bed heats up, your running an a more normal pellet stove efficiency. It takes about 25 minutes for the stove to reach it's true gasification properties. As far as the differences between gasification and typical burn being similar to an old/new wood stove, that is a the proper analogy. An EPA certified wood stove will burn 30-40 % less wood than the old style stoves. The Europa will without doubt burn that much less in fuel than a typical "drop the pellets in a pot and blow air on them" Pellet stove. The difference in the emmisions arent quite the same, but it does burn much cleaner with a much lower flue temp than a typical stove. It has a lower flue temp with 300 degree air blowing out of the heat exchanger..on 275 degree air at a nice velocity on only 2lbs per hour of fuel. Where ever you live, if you are curious, try to find someone with the new Paromax stove burning. Ask them to set it to setting 3 (2lbs per hour) and see the heat that comes out..you'll be a believer.

I was such a doubter 3 years ago when I was introduced to this stove when I felt the heat on setting 3 that I had to run my own feed rate test. The heat coming out felt like a 40K btu stove on high. I SWORE to Claude Lapoint that the stove had to be using 4-5 lbs per hour to make that much heat. Sure enough, on setting 3, gobs of heat and 19.5 hours on a 40lb bag.

 

[Fsappo]

Just realized. Sugar/Pook requested info, it was provided and he never responded to this thread. I guess when he asks for a link and gets it, that kind of ruins the fun

 

[webbie]

Gasification on pellets has a very similar result as burning wood in a Fisher stove and then burning wood in an epa certified stove. Night and Day.

I'll come back and answer questions best I can if folks have any.

Franks, I find that a bit misleading...maybe more than a bit!

The fact is that "gasification" is hardly even the proper word to describe most of this stuff - as I once discussed on a podcast with John Gulland. He argues that it is the wrong term for even the boilers - that they are simply downdraft combustion. I agree, although we throw the term around.

It seems as if the first issue here is simply the combustion efficiency of burning pellets in modern space heaters.
My guess would be that most existing Pellet stoves have faily high combustion efficiencies.
Maybe we can check that out with some lab rats. If they had poor combustion efficiency, the result would likely be smoke.

After that we get to heat transfer efficiency and total seasonal or AFUE efficiency. When all these are put together, the end result can vary greatly...of course...so I am not doubting one stove over another. I would guess that the worst model out there might be 50% total efficiency if not totally tuned up perfect, while the best model might be 80% (approx.) in normal operation. That is the difference between burning 3 tons and 5 tons....or something like that!

In any case, I would not agree that all other pellet stoves are like Fishers and that this stove is night and day. This may very well be the best...and highest efficiency, but others run the gamut from poor...to almost as efficient.

Just trying to clarify for the non-techies.

I suppose if we really were to talk about gasification, then we would have no flame at all anywhere near the fuel. We would bake the fuel, drive the gases off and burn the gas in another chamber.....using the definition that we are here - most pellet stoves and modern wood stoves would qualify.

 

[Fsappo]

Craig, have you ever seen one of these stoves burn? Even though the secondary combustion isnt taking place in a seperate chamber, it is "baking" the pellets on an ash bed and there is gasification taking place in the burn tube on top. Not sure what you would call it aside from gasification. I emailed the link to this thread to Claude, who invented the stove asking him to chime in. I may not be answering the technical questions as well as he could. So you think that there are biomass stoves out there that come anywhere close to a 95% heat exchanger efficiency?

So, those Tarms we used to buy from you back in the 80s, they weren't really wood gasifiers? Or the wood guns that good ole Dave Oneil built up in Warrensburg..you know, the ones that would explode in your face if you opened the door too fast and dripped creosote out of the cyclone ash seperater..that wasnt gasification?

Also, if the Europa did in fact burn 30-40% less fuel than any other biomass stove marketed, you think my statement of comparison is misleading?

These are sincere questions. I look at the "gamut" as being a lot of stoves of varying heat exchanger efficiencies...then a long gap, then the Europa.

 

[dac122]

Franks,

FWIW I was doubtful of you claim initially since you cannot get something for nothing. It is not uncommon in the furnace and boiler industry to not deduct the electrical consumption in AFUE calculations - which can be equated to lost BTUs.

So I checked the electrical consumption and discovered you use about the same or maybe less power than other brands - certainly not more. So if indeed you[re reaching that efficiency then hats off to you.

 

[webbie]

Exactly, Franks...those boilers are high efficiency fan forced downdraft burners, not gasifiers in the true sense.

As to baking of wood, etc...my campfire does that too, as well as an open fireplace. What I am saying is that these terms can mislead since there is NOTHING here which is independent of combustion efficiency. Would you agree on that? In other words, one stove with 95% combustion efficiency would be burning the pellets as completely as another, whatever their claims. And one stove of 80% total efficiency would be exactly the same as another....assuming the same test.

One thing for certain is that ALL the figures are glorified to some extent. What sales or marketing dept. in their right mind would not do so? We advertised the old Tarm boilers as 82% efficient, and they were - when running perfectly, etc.
However, as our friend here nofossil has educated us, we find that we are really lucky if an entire installed system can achieve 60%. So which is the truth? Well, his is.....

 

[Fsappo]

So when Omni(or other indy lab) labs runs a battery of tests and concludes a stove has a 94.9% heat exchanger efficiency using the lower heat value and the manufacturer states this on their website it is misleading.

Also, yes, they are talking about combustion efficiency in all that jargon, but there is other jargon which blabs on and on about the heat exchanger design. Claude told me that was a large part of why it achieves 95% heat exchanger efficiency. Again, for me, 35-40% less fuel than a typical stove I have seen proof of. My writing of this thread was to show Pook/Sugar a link showing a 10-1 air ratio.

You got plenty of spare time Craig. Let's set up a test between a Europa and whatever stove out there claims to have a good efficiency rating. I'll get Claude to donate a stove. We'll have them both heat equal areas for a month and check the pellet usage at the end.

I've always wanted to do that, I just dont have a location that would provide equal areas to heat with equal insulation. So lets do it, promote it as a battle royale! You can have the rights to the live feed thru your website and making a killing!

 

[hoverfly]

From what pictures I have seen it's imposable to tell where is air injected, how much air to allow gasification and not total combustion at the wood then the gas is separated from the wood with additional air mixed in to allow total combustion of the pyrolysis gas. I am thinking they are using an up draft gasafier but can't prove it. Sorry for the SP got to got work....!

 

[Fsappo]

I let Claude Lapoint look at the thread. He sent me this, a test done on a stove I was asked not to name, but it is a very popular model NOT sold in the big box stores, but thru hearth retailers. I have no idea what this stuff really means, but someone might. I think we are supposed to compare it to the testing stats on the Europa I posted earlier. Also, Claudes comments to me:

It all about methods and means
This gentlemen mentioned down draft that’s one method but its not the only one t look up gasification in combustion dictionaries
Fuel beds need to be air starved to create gasification therefore an air tight environment to be able to create it.
Our fuel bed temperatures are below 1200 F to prevent clinkers . The only way to do that is to control air ratio thru the fuel bed.

First and foremost the competition should provide their burn analysis so we can compare apples with apples.

CALCULATION OF STOCIOMETRIC PRODUCTS, ACTUAL PRODUCTS, AND EFFICIENCY
Unit: Model #180-5 Burn Rate: 2.18 Kg/h
Fuel: Wood pellets (B415.1 std values) EPA Exempted
ULTIMATE Dry Calorific Value (MJ/kg) 19.81 ( 8517 BTU/lb)
ANALYSIS (dry basis) Fuel Moisture (% wet basis) 6.3 ( 6.7 % db)
Carbon 48.73 As-Fired C.V. (MJ/kg) 18.56 ( 7980 BTU/lb)
Hydrogen 6.87 Flue Gas Values: % Combustible in Ash: 0
Sulphur 0 % CO2 2.65 from O2: 2.58 CONVERSION FACTORS:
Nitrogen 0 % O2 18.12 from CO2: 18.05 Mj/kg = BTU/lb*.002326
Ash 0.5 % CO 0.07 F = 9/5*C+32 C+ 5/9*(F-32)
Oxygen 43.9 Flue © 208 406 F MC(wb) = MC(db)/(100+MC (db))
Total 100 Amb't © 20 68 F MC(db) = MC(wb)/(100-MC (wb))
LOSSES BTU/lb BTU/lb %
Air & Flue Gas From co2 From o2 dry fuel as fired
% Excess Air 629.53 648.71 DFG 3626 3397 42.57
Comb'n air (Sft3/lb fuel) 550.8 565.3 Fuel H2O 81 76 0.95
Dfg (lb/lb dry fuel) 44.6 45.8 H2 747 700 8.77
Tfg (lb/lb dry fuel) 45.3 46.5 CO 127 119 0.21
Dfg (Aft3/lb dry fuel) 967.9 993.4 Comb. In ash 0
Dfg (Sft3/lb dry fuel) 549.6 564.1 Total Loss 4581 4292 52.50
Tfg (Aft3/lb dry fuel) 991.8 1017.3 % Efficiency 47.5
Tfg (Sft3/lb dry fuel) 563.2 577.7
CO (lb/lb dry fuel) 0.031 0.032
Vol fraction H2O in flue 0.024 0.023
Products of Combustion at Stociometric
STOCIOMETRIC VALUES lb/lb Sft3/lb
Stociometric Air Req'd (lb/lb dry fuel) dry fuel dry fuel
Carbon (32/12.011*.01*C) 1.298 Stociometric CO2 1.786 14.57
Hydrogen (8/1.008-.01-H) 0.545 Stociometric N2 4.663 59.75
Sulphur (32/32.066*.066*.01*S) 0.000 Stociometric SO2 0.000 0.00
Total 1.844 Total dfg 6.448 74.32
Less )2 in fu 0.439 Wet products
O2 from air 1.405 H2O (reaction) 0.614 12.23
Associated N2 (76.85/23.15*.02) 4.663 H2O (fuel) 0.067 1.34
Total dry air: 6.067 Total flue gas 7.129 87.89
Stociometric % CO2: 1

From what I understand, the typical heat exchanger efficiency of this stove is 47.5% Does any of that make sense?

 

[Fsappo]

From what pictures I have seen it's imposable to tell where is air injected, how much air to allow gasification and not total combustion at the wood then the gas is separated from the wood with additional air mixed in to allow total combustion of the pyrolysis gas. I am thinking they are using an up draft gasafier but can't prove it. Sorry for the SP got to got work....!

The pellets are burning in a tube, about 12" tall. The ash bed is burning at a relatively low temp about 8" down. The air is preheated thru an airtight chamber around the burn tube and injected into the gases as they rise off the pellet fuel bed. The top 8" of this burn tube are lined with holes where the air shoots into the smoke. The end result is blue and yellow shoots of flame similar to what you would see coming out of the air tube holes in an EPA Certified non cat wood stove. For whatever reason, the gases and flame spiral, created a kind of blue to yellow flame tornado

 

[Fsappo]

Note: Net efficiency rests on combustion efficiency and heat transfer efficiency.


this is vague . why doesnt it simply say "heat transfer efficiency"? plain and simple , to the point! to assess the heat delivery into the room would require testing within a calorimetric room which i dont see mentioned. i dont doubt the gassification of the europa is more efficient but have seen problems with older models which burned corn and pellets which i think was discontinued . is the original mfr. still producing this jewel or has it been transferred to another co.? maggie

Original guy is making them again, after a brief stint of FPI trying to make them...this is why I proposed a test. You want to see which horse is faster, as Claude says...you have a race

Criminy, I just tried to reset my password and it gave me a new screen name...now I have no sig and 7 posts to my name. I guess I'm gonna have to fix that