jet pump "block heater?"

[pybyr]

I help look after a former one room schoohouse that is used for community events. It is only used intermittently in winter, and the non-submersible deep well iron jet pump is housed in an enclosed room in the cellar, heated by an electric space heater that kicks on when the temperature in that room goes below 40F.

Long story short, we've lost several jet pumps to freezing over the years due to snafus; that gets expensive.

I would like to try to figure out a way to also arrange a thermostatically controlled "block heater" (as with engines) on the pump itself, as an insurance policy.

Anyone ever heard of someone doing that, or how, or have any brainstorms?

Thanks

 

[Gooserider]

Any possibility of wrapping the pump in electric "heat tape" / pipe wrap and some insulation? - which you possibly hardwire to the outlet box, or at least secure with a clamp and a big tag saying "Do Not Remove"? Most of the pipe tapes I've seen have a sensor on them to automatically cut on when they get cold which solves one problem. The other is to keep the heater from getting unplugged or turned off, which is a different and often harder problem... I'd also try to make the heater circuit dedicated, again with a tag or other "Don't Turn OFF" indication, and maybe even a strip of tape over the breaker...

Gooserider

 

['bert]

What a few of the old farmers that still have working head wells around here do is this. Take a 120 volt room thermostat (the kind used for baseboard heaters ($ 10 kind nothing fancy or electronic) and use it to turn on the block heater. You can also use another one to turn on a outside light when the temp in the room gets too cold.

If the place has a telephone line there are devices that can call out upon a contact closure too.

Seen all kinds of stuff out here. I wish you well (pun intended).

 

[Highbeam]

This electric space heater you have should work. Why isn't it working? Is it some temporary hokey pokey portable heater laying on the floor of the pump room? Well, then that's your problem. Install a proper permanent electric heater with a thermostat to keep the room warm. In addition to that I would agree with the above post on heat tape or even better is the magnetic pad type oil pan heater that is basicly a real powerful hot pad.

These pumps that break. It's not the motor side, what part of them ruptures when cold? Can you apply heat tape or a pad type engine heater to them? The engine heaters in general are power hogs but they can be activated by those freeze cube style thermostats that only activate when room temp gets down near freezing.

 

[pybyr]

This electric space heater you have should work. Why isn't it working? Is it some temporary hokey pokey portable heater laying on the floor of the pump room? Well, then that's your problem. Install a proper permanent electric heater with a thermostat to keep the room warm. In addition to that I would agree with the above post on heat tape or even better is the magnetic pad type oil pan heater that is basicly a real powerful hot pad.

These pumps that break. It's not the motor side, what part of them ruptures when cold? Can you apply heat tape or a pad type engine heater to them? The engine heaters in general are power hogs but they can be activated by those freeze cube style thermostats that only activate when room temp gets down near freezing.

Well meaning but clueless people accidentally shut the main breaker off every so often, which de-activates the permanently-installed space heater in the pump room.

I am now thinking of a magnet-type engine heater hung on the cast iron housing of the jet pump, maybe fed by its own not-easy-to-defeat circuit.

Please tell me more about the "freeze cube" thermostats that might work well for controlling that.

 

[Gooserider]

This electric space heater you have should work. Why isn't it working? Is it some temporary hokey pokey portable heater laying on the floor of the pump room? Well, then that's your problem. Install a proper permanent electric heater with a thermostat to keep the room warm. In addition to that I would agree with the above post on heat tape or even better is the magnetic pad type oil pan heater that is basicly a real powerful hot pad.

These pumps that break. It's not the motor side, what part of them ruptures when cold? Can you apply heat tape or a pad type engine heater to them? The engine heaters in general are power hogs but they can be activated by those freeze cube style thermostats that only activate when room temp gets down near freezing.

Well meaning but clueless people accidentally shut the main breaker off every so often, which de-activates the permanently-installed space heater in the pump room.

I am now thinking of a magnet-type engine heater hung on the cast iron housing of the jet pump, maybe fed by its own not-easy-to-defeat circuit.

Please tell me more about the "freeze cube" thermostats that might work well for controlling that.

As I understand codes, you can't readily do a circuit that doesn't go through the main breaker... Sounds to me like what you need is to put a big piece of tape over the main breaker switch w/ a warning sign saying "Do not turn off! If turned off you will be held responsible for any resulting damage..."

The other option might be to split the electrics into two panels or switch banks, one containing the stuff that you want shut off when the building is unoccupied, and the other the stuff you don't, with a lock of some sort on the "don't turn off" panel...

Far as I know, codes don't allow you to have circuits that are locked "on" but you are allowed to put stuff over them to make it very clear that they shouldn't be turned off...

Gooserider

 

[seige101]

Sounds like what you need is a couple breaker locks. These screw or snap onto the breaker and don't let them be shut off without removing the lock first. These are often used on emergency lighting circuits, or for fire alarm panels and the like.

Find out what circuit the heater is on and put on on that.

As far as codes regarding it i honestly don't know. Never had an inspector say anything about it and the breaker locks are made by the breaker and panel companies.

They still allow the breaker to trip internally, just not manually shut off without removing the device first.

Here is a link to one http://www.foxelectricsupply.com/co...etail.asp?qsCatID=25837&qsProductNo=GEDTHL103

 

[Highbeam]

Yes but if the "well meaning but clueless" dude is throwing the main breaker then the locked breakers won't pass power anyway. Can you, or should you, lock the main open?

Let me check on those freeze cubes.

 

[Highbeam]

http://www.lmimg.com/Thermostatically_controlled_outlets.asp

Here you go. Thermostatically controlled outlets turn on at 35 and off at 45. Still, if some jackalope shuts off the main breaker you're going to freeze.

 

[seige101]

Yes but if the "well meaning but clueless" dude is throwing the main breaker then the locked breakers won't pass power anyway. Can you, or should you, lock the main open?

Let me check on those freeze cubes.

Main breakers being locked is a normal thing. In most commercial services the power company requires a disconnect before the meter or Ct cabinet. These are usually located outside. Because of this they are normally locked to prevent someone from hitting the switch. (Ie bored kids or disgruntled employees shut down a store in the middle of the day etc)

Or in commercial buildings panels located in public spaces are normally locked.

Edit: Looked around the code for a little bit and tried a couple google searches. Couldn't come up with anything specific to using breakers locks, or locking services.

Closest i came up with is readily accessible. Being said if the building owner installs the lock and has the key that is considered readily accessible.

 

[Gooserider]

That is slick, but as you point out, it doesn't really sound like the problem is with the technology - the current space heater sounds like it does the required job.

The issue is what computer techs refer to as a "PEBKAC" * or "User Failure" - and none of the proposed approaches other than possibly putting a lock on the breakers are going to solve that...

One other option which might work, though it would be expensive, is to use a propane heater - I assume one could be found that was reasonably low power, not dependent on wall power for operation, and able to be set for just keeping temps above freezing... Again you would have idiot prevention issues, but at least for the heater you could presumably limit access to the controls...

Gooserider

(* PEBKAC = Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair.... Please reset password to id10t )

 

[Gooserider]

Yes but if the "well meaning but clueless" dude is throwing the main breaker then the locked breakers won't pass power anyway. Can you, or should you, lock the main open?

Let me check on those freeze cubes.

Main breakers being locked is a normal thing. In most commercial services the power company requires a disconnect before the meter or Ct cabinet. These are usually located outside. Because of this they are normally locked to prevent someone from hitting the switch. (Ie bored kids or disgruntled employees shut down a store in the middle of the day etc)

Or in commercial buildings panels located in public spaces are normally locked.

Edit: Looked around the code for a little bit and tried a couple google searches. Couldn't come up with anything specific to using breakers locks, or locking services.

Closest i came up with is readily accessible. Being said if the building owner installs the lock and has the key that is considered readily accessible.

You may be right - I think the key issue is to not lock in such a way that the breaker can't trip if needed... I thought there was also some sort of requirement for stuff to be sufficiently accessible for emergency personnel to be able to kill the power if needed. Maybe it's a case of not making the locks TOO good?

Gooserider

 

[pybyr]

http://www.lmimg.com/Thermostatically_controlled_outlets.asp

Here you go. Thermostatically controlled outlets turn on at 35 and off at 45. Still, if some jackalope shuts off the main breaker you're going to freeze.

Thanks!