Just bought Harman exception insert

[bige34]

I just bought a harman exception insert for my fireplace and wonder if it will work like the salesman said. I have an old victorian home c1850 that is about 950 sf per floor. The insert is on one side of the first floor and the stairway is located in the center of the house. I'm wondering how much I should expect in terms of heat for the entire first floor and then how much heat will go upstairs. I only have one heating zone in the house with the thermostat on the first floor about 30 feet away from the insert in a separate room. Any tips, suggestions, or expectations would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[begreen]

Should be a winner for you as long as it is properly installed with a safe flue. Please post some pictures of the installation.

 

[Corie]

You shouldn't have any problem getting the heat to circulate to both floors. The bottom floor will certain be cozy, and I imagine that there is a central staircase where heat can flow up into the second floor. Rest assured it will and cutting holes in the floor or anything else nutty like that will more than likely not be necessary.

The Harman afterburner technology (and Vermont Castings everburn) is quite advanced and able to deliver really sweet performance for a non-cat stove. I think you will be very happy with the unit and I look foward to hearing your review and seeing pictures of the installation.


If you have any questions on installation, operation, etc I hope we can help you answer them

 

[Shane]

If possible a ceiling fan in the stairwell will work wonders. I wouldn't bother until you burn the stove without it though to see if it's even necessary. My stariwell acts like a chimney. You can stand at the bottom of the stairs and feel the cold air at your feet and the warm air on the back of your neck.

 

[bige34]

Thanks for the encouragement guys, I'll post pictures when it is installed. As for the install, I noticed they are only putting in five feet of stainless steel tubing into my chimney which is about 30 feet high. Is this OK, or should it be completely lined? I have an excellent draft with this chimney and never had a problem burning wood the old fashioned way.

Eric

 

[BrotherBart]

I would heartily encourge you to line it all the way up. I have been burning into a clay tile lined 8 X 12 chimney for years and always thought I had great draft too. I almost fainted after I finally put in a six inch stainless liner and lit up that stove. Unbelieveable difference.

And with the five foot "direct connect" you are going to have to pull the darn insert to clean the chimney, just like I have had to do for twenty years. After installing the full liner I went up, dropped a rope down the pipe and pulled the brush and gunk right down into the fire box.

It took three days to wipe the grin off my face. My back is gonna love this setup.

 

[Todd]

Thanks for the encouragement guys, I'll post pictures when it is installed. As for the install, I noticed they are only putting in five feet of stainless steel tubing into my chimney which is about 30 feet high. Is this OK, or should it be completely lined? I have an excellent draft with this chimney and never had a problem burning wood the old fashioned way.

Eric

What is the inside diameter of you chimney flue. Does the chimney have a clay tile liner that is in good shape? Is it an outside wall chimney? If it doesn't have a clay liner it may be required to fully reline. Check with local inspector. For best results it's best to have as close to the stove exhaust collar size as possible.

 

[bige34]

What is the inside diameter of you chimney flue. Does the chimney have a clay tile liner that is in good shape? Is it an outside wall chimney? If it doesn't have a clay liner it may be required to fully reline. Check with local inspector. For best results it's best to have as close to the stove exhaust collar size as possible.

The chimney is on an outside wall and only has a clay liner from near the top (the last 12 feet of the chimney was rebuilt four years ago. I'm not sure what the inside diameter is.

ERic

 

[Todd]

What is the inside diameter of you chimney flue. Does the chimney have a clay tile liner that is in good shape? Is it an outside wall chimney? If it doesn't have a clay liner it may be required to fully reline. Check with local inspector. For best results it's best to have as close to the stove exhaust collar size as possible.

The chimney is on an outside wall and only has a clay liner from near the top (the last 12 feet of the chimney was rebuilt four years ago. I'm not sure what the inside diameter is.

ERic

I would call a local inspector and see if this is a legal install without a full liner. Also ask your dealer about this. I think you will need a full liner to pass inspection.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

that chimney needs to be relined all the way, i wont be the first to tell you that. If the salesman is the one installing it he wont be able to keep his word. Your stove will be a PITA to start up, and a bigger PITA to clean. You wont get the near the efficiency. Also, if your chimney is not in tip top shape i have a hard time beliving a good installer would even suggest not lining it. Something sounds fishy.

 

[seaken]

I agree that something sounds fishey.

Is this a hearth dealer you bought from? A sweep? If either was a professional in his/her trade they would not suggest anything but a full liner with insulation on the chimney stack you described. I think you need to ask the installers more questions.

What is the benefit of a full liner that matches the outlet size of this stove?
What is the benefit of an insulated liner system when used with an outdoor chimney?
Will the system be easy to maintain if you don't line it all the way to the top?
How much will a chimney sweep charge me to clean the system if we don't go all the way up?
etc., etc.

Sean

 

[bige34]

I agree that something sounds fishey.

Is this a hearth dealer you bought from? A sweep? If either was a professional in his/her trade they would not suggest anything but a full liner with insulation on the chimney stack you described. I think you need to ask the installers more questions.

What is the benefit of a full liner that matches the outlet size of this stove?
What is the benefit of an insulated liner system when used with an outdoor chimney?
Will the system be easy to maintain if you don't line it all the way to the top?
How much will a chimney sweep charge me to clean the system if we don't go all the way up?
etc., etc.

Sean

I bought the unit from a hearth dealer (authorized by Harman). He never asked about my chimney at all and I only assume he will not be including a fully lined chimney because he wrote on the receipt $150 for 5 foot of five inch SS pipe. I don't mind paying a bit more if I need it, I just want my unit to be as efficient as it can be while more importantly being safely installed. How much (NY metro area) should I be paying to line an entire chimney which is about 30 to 35 feet tall? I may have misunderstood one question, though, the chimney is on an outside wall but it is not exposed to the elements and is within the frame of my home.

Eric

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

You would expect to pay between 800 -1200 dollars for material for a chimney that big.

 

[elkimmeg]

Ask you dealerto tell you the NFPA cross-sectional code. If only lined the last 12', no wood stove / insert can be installed in any un lined chimney? What about a block off damper plate. This dealer needs to get re-educated in current codes. His lack of knowledge is doing you and his customers a huge dis-service. I can tell you you stove installation is non code compliant and will opperate like crap. It will never draft correctly and never run effeciently. Glad you had the wisdom to question the direct connect issue. It has to be installed in an NFPA compliant chimney without good condition liners properly sized it cannot be installed. That info is in your owner's installation manual. BTW a good stove choice

 

[HarryBack]

Ask you dealerto tell you the NFPA cross-sectional code. If only lined the last 12', no wood stove / insert can be installed in any un lined chimney? What about a block off damper plate. This dealer needs to get re-educated in current codes. His lack of knowledge is doing you and his customers a huge dis-service. I can tell you you stove installation is non code compliant and will opperate like crap. It will never draft correctly and never run effeciently. Glad you had the wisdom to question the direct connect issue. It has to be installed in an NFPA compliant chimney without good condition liners properly sized it cannot be installed. That info is in your owner's installation manual. BTW a good stove choice

Elk.....kinda off-topic, as I know the insert is being installed in a negative pressure scenario, but whats the NFPA cross sectional code say in a POSITIVE pressure scenario? We run into that question alot with positive pressure pellet stoves. Obviously, a liner is best in almost every situation, but is it ALLOWABLE to NOT use a liner with a positive pressure stove? I believe the Mass Building code only really covers natural draft appliances.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

very true, there are no cross sectional requirments for pellet stoves that im aware of, and believe it our not, in out heavy regulated area, pellet stoves dont reqiure permits in boulder, but a tuff shed does... go figure.

 

[elkimmeg]

Harry good question: Even with positive pressure and a 12/12 clay flue running 25 ft up. Do you really think it is going to heat that area with a 3" vent pipe? Me, I would be opening the installation manual and reading the venting requirements. Before I could answer your questions, I would have to know the limitations of positive pressures developed. Positive pressure developed in a 4" pipe for how much a verticle rise? There is no simple answer. and positive venting is not addressed but covered in a general solid fuel appliance category and that they be, "installed in accordance with the terms of the listing."

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

in the pellet manuals it shows both types of installs, stub in and full line, you dont need any draft, and the pellet manufactures state the larger the flue the less backpressure the combustion blower will have. So they promote large dumps, they even have a 3" to 6" top vent adapeter, they claim two reasons "to improve draft and make the stove look like a more natural installation" this is true for quadrafire...

 

[webbie]

very true, there are no cross sectional requirments for pellet stoves that im aware of, and believe it our not, in out heavy regulated area, pellet stoves dont reqiure permits in boulder, but a tuff shed does... go figure.

In my old town, Fireplace Inserts did not require a permit - the inspector told us it was like a window air conditioner - in other words, installed into an existing chimney.

He even showed me the book for the state of NJ, which started with the words "A building permit is required when structural alterations are being done to a building" or something like that. It may have changed since but this was his instructions...at least for wood inserts. Gas, of course, required a permit and inspection/leak pressure tests.

I'm sure some of this is open to interpretation....for instance:
1. Permit required for glass doors?
2. Permit required for blower (heating) grate?
3. Permit required for slip-in insert (Ultragrate, eco-fire, etc.)?
4. Permit required for Pellet Stove into existing fireplace?

and on and on. Some inspectors and towns will tell you that you need a permit to hang a picture - others let you put in a swimming pool in-ground without one!

Anyway. our local official took the position that only new chimneys needed permits, and that even a liner was a "repair" job, which allowed it to be done (at the time) with no permit.

 

[webbie]

Back to the situation at hand.

The Harman exception appears to be a wood insert. Sounds like your chimney is unlined except the top, which was rebuilt. This suggests that chimney is perhaps old and in poor repair. As Elk says, relining is a MUST in the case of a chimney that is not already lined fully with terra cotta. You may have nothing but some ancient decaying brick between your flue (which can hit 100 degrees plus) and some very dry framing wood.

 

[elkimmeg]

Got it right things have changed. Every manual list code compliance and tested to IBC or NFPA

 

[bige34]

Back to the situation at hand.

The Harman exception appears to be a wood insert. Sounds like your chimney is unlined except the top, which was rebuilt. This suggests that chimney is perhaps old and in poor repair. As Elk says, relining is a MUST in the case of a chimney that is not already lined fully with terra cotta. You may have nothing but some ancient decaying brick between your flue (which can hit 100 degrees plus) and some very dry framing wood.

Craig et al

I thank you all for your unbiased opinions and am happy I found this sight. My home is over 150 years old and I'm sure some of the brick in my chimney is old and barely insulating the wood frame around it. I will be going to the dealertomorrow and insisting on an install with a completely lined chimney. Had I not done the research and found such and informative website, I'm not sure how the install would have gone. Perhaps you guys saved an old home, or more importantly a family. I promise to send some pix once the job is done.

I'm proud to be one who is searching for alternative fuels to heat my home and will continue to be involved in this forum. Perhaps one day I will have a smidgen of the knowledge you guys have and will be able to help others in the same way you guys have helped me.

ERic

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Eric, glad we could help. Good luck with the install.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

we have this joker installer in town that stubs them in he tells folks, " dont waste your money on that! i can do it for a third of the price!" and whats scarier, is that another stove shop uses him exclusivly. I cant tell you how many folks come in pissed because there $2000 insert doesnt work, and guess what, he wont return phone calls. He has been in court more days then OJ. But still continues to install that way. Buyer beware.

 

[Corie]

It makes you wish you could personally handle every installation just to be certain that everyone does everything correctly.