I need to get educated on this insurance to decide when and if we need it. Do you have it or do you have relatives that have used it? How to compare plans and options? Recommendations? Any caveats or companies to avoid?
Long Term Care Insurance
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Everyone's likelihood of needing LTC insurance is different; from financial capabilities to general health to habits and to genes. A few years ago my cousin (a pharmacist) did a non-scientific study on occupancy rates of LTC facilities in the State of TN. His findings were that females typically have a tenure of 12-15 months in a facility and males have a tenure of 6-10 months. Naturally there are exceptions and since we both had parents in their late 80s early 90s the info was of multi concern.
I read a short response the other day authored by Dave Ramsey to a person asking some of the same questions you are asking. His response was that LTC insurance is an unnecessary expense for people under the age of 60. He recommended shopping for the insurance once the person reaches age 60. Of course this is a generalized answer also because there seems to always be the person that develops ALZ at age 40 or less as a young lady I grew up with.
My assessment of insurance companies over the past 60 years has led me to believe a) none of them service everyone perfectly, b) all of them are loathed by someone, c) all of them are in business to make a profit.
After 34 years with Allstate Indemnity I was forced to change my homeowners and auto insurance to Erie Insurance Exchange because of coverage level vs costs of BMWs (theirs not mine obviously). Sorry I can't be of further assistance.
I read a short response the other day authored by Dave Ramsey to a person asking some of the same questions you are asking. His response was that LTC insurance is an unnecessary expense for people under the age of 60. He recommended shopping for the insurance once the person reaches age 60. Of course this is a generalized answer also because there seems to always be the person that develops ALZ at age 40 or less as a young lady I grew up with.
My assessment of insurance companies over the past 60 years has led me to believe a) none of them service everyone perfectly, b) all of them are loathed by someone, c) all of them are in business to make a profit.
After 34 years with Allstate Indemnity I was forced to change my homeowners and auto insurance to Erie Insurance Exchange because of coverage level vs costs of BMWs (theirs not mine obviously). Sorry I can't be of further assistance.
That's a fair summary of where we are at. Over 60 now and realize we need to take care of business. The odds of one of us getting ALZ are too high to ignore. Currently my BIL has it and could go stage 4 soon. They have no coverage.
Sorry to hear about your BIL. My father died with/from ALZ at age 86 and was in LTC facility almost exactly 6 months - with no insurance. Although the gene-pool on both sides of my ancestry indicate I should live to be 100, the odds now are greatly improved that I will also experience ALZ. I too am over 60 and some days almost believe I have ALZ now, but I can't remember why !! 
All the emotions everyone feels dealing with the disease is from pure aggrevation to ultimate humor and I tried to keep thinking of it on a humorous side as my very best friend and a wonderful man suffered through it to the end. He forgot or was confused about everything except 1 thing ..... me.
I have found this site which might be of interest if you have not been to it previously.
http://www.aaltci.org/long-term-care-insurance/
All the emotions everyone feels dealing with the disease is from pure aggrevation to ultimate humor and I tried to keep thinking of it on a humorous side as my very best friend and a wonderful man suffered through it to the end. He forgot or was confused about everything except 1 thing ..... me.I have found this site which might be of interest if you have not been to it previously.
http://www.aaltci.org/long-term-care-insurance/
Im kinda sorta in the business. YOu will hear different things from different people, but.....
Insurance companies are in business to make a profit. No surprise there. Long term care coverage is very inexpensive if you start buying while you are young. It gets prohibitively expensivce if you start buying it in your 60's, as all you are doing is trading dollars with an insurance company. The company essentially calculates the expected cost of a stay, factoring in investment returns and administrative charges and dividing that by the number of years you have until you might wind up in an LTC facility. If you don't need LTC, they walk away with a boatload of money andyou/your family gets nothing.
If you are a disciplined investor/saver, my suggestion would be to talk to an accountant or financial planner about setting up a tax-advantaged investment account. Put the money in every month and leave it alone, letting compounding work its magic. If you need long term care, you've got the money. If you don' t need it, you have a fat chunk of money to bequeath to family or a charity. insurance is like Las Vegas: you may beat the house once in a while, but the house usually wins.
Insurance companies are in business to make a profit. No surprise there. Long term care coverage is very inexpensive if you start buying while you are young. It gets prohibitively expensivce if you start buying it in your 60's, as all you are doing is trading dollars with an insurance company. The company essentially calculates the expected cost of a stay, factoring in investment returns and administrative charges and dividing that by the number of years you have until you might wind up in an LTC facility. If you don't need LTC, they walk away with a boatload of money andyou/your family gets nothing.
If you are a disciplined investor/saver, my suggestion would be to talk to an accountant or financial planner about setting up a tax-advantaged investment account. Put the money in every month and leave it alone, letting compounding work its magic. If you need long term care, you've got the money. If you don' t need it, you have a fat chunk of money to bequeath to family or a charity. insurance is like Las Vegas: you may beat the house once in a while, but the house usually wins.
Rich... You just echo'd my feelings; however, the discipline to save normally is required at an early age also. Over the years I have attempted to mentor young people as they started their careers and convince them to "pay themselves first" with every paycheck, stressing that regardless of how small or large the amount is; it goes into a "non-existing account". "Non-existing account" being one that is never used, except for life/death situations. Most people do not have the discipline, but some do. That fund is exactly what pays for LTC and/or other critical needs when we get aged. It's never too late to start that account, but it's good to start early.
A good friend's mother had LTC insurance (company unknown to me) that was less than steller when it came time to pay the expenses. They actually only paid expenses for the time spent in the facility for full blocks of 20 days. Mary passed away at day 12 into the 3rd block of 20 days and the insurance company paid $0.00 on expenses for those 12 days; just like SSI. My friend was outraged, aggrevated, etc etc; but in "the fine print" - - there it was. As you said, "the house usually wins."
On a happier note ...... It's GREAT to get old and creaky ......... beats the alternative every day !
Rich K
USACE Retread
A good friend's mother had LTC insurance (company unknown to me) that was less than steller when it came time to pay the expenses. They actually only paid expenses for the time spent in the facility for full blocks of 20 days. Mary passed away at day 12 into the 3rd block of 20 days and the insurance company paid $0.00 on expenses for those 12 days; just like SSI. My friend was outraged, aggrevated, etc etc; but in "the fine print" - - there it was. As you said, "the house usually wins."
On a happier note ...... It's GREAT to get old and creaky ......... beats the alternative every day !
Rich K
USACE Retread
Aye, that's the rub. Finding a good, local financial adviser that is not selling a company product is much, much harder than finding a decent insurance agency.
We don't have it. We can't afford it, frankly. I know, I know... but the reality is that we have to keep shovelling money into our "retirement" investments, and I'm not entirely sure I have any confidence in an insurance company's ability to "pay up" given the recent debacle in the insurance industry. I am the worrywort in this house, probably because I'm 10 yrs. younger than the husband (yes, I'm a "trophy bride", hahaha). I worry about a frail and infirm "elderhood" a lot. With good reason. I took care of my frail, mentally failing mother for 4 yrs. in our home. It's a good thing her decline was gradual and I absorbed the increasing responsibilities over time because the experience was a life changeing event for me. I don't think I'll ever fully recover from it and unless you've had to do it on a daily basis you have NO idea how hard it really is. There is nothing more devastating than watching a vibrant, talented person evaporate before your very eyes.
And her last 6 mos. in a nursing home were the most trying and horrifying months I've yet endured on this planet. I am filled with dread at the prospect that her end foretells my own. Me? I'm holding out for assisted suicide, I hope when I approach my time it won't be regarded as radical and overseen by "death panels". Had I any say in her last months she'd have "gone to sleep" in her bed in my home and never awakened. We give our pets better "end of life care" than we're permitted to grant our family.
And her last 6 mos. in a nursing home were the most trying and horrifying months I've yet endured on this planet. I am filled with dread at the prospect that her end foretells my own. Me? I'm holding out for assisted suicide, I hope when I approach my time it won't be regarded as radical and overseen by "death panels". Had I any say in her last months she'd have "gone to sleep" in her bed in my home and never awakened. We give our pets better "end of life care" than we're permitted to grant our family.
Yes, I do hear what you are saying. The system is rigged. Keep it in the financial system and they'll blow it all away in a day. Give it to the insurers and they will be picking your pockets coming and going, not to mention burying you in more junk mail than you can imagine.
Everyone thinks of long-term care insurance as financial stress. I beg to disagree, because at some extent long-term care insurance is important for people who wish to protect their personal assets against the costly LTC services. Long term care services are very expensive; most people can't afford the costs even for short periods. So what's more if you need it extensively? Personally, buying long term care is a best insurance decision you'll make. Nowadays, there are so many possible ways to save on your long term care insurance premiums -- here's a good site I dig on the Internet http://completelongtermcare.com/resources/how-to-save.aspx
Hope that link will help
Hope that link will help
jebatty
Minister of Fire
I'm a risk taker plus I have a health care declaration that says to pull the plug (no food, no water, no medications, etc.) if and when I am completely dependent on others for care and can no longer make decisions for myself. I figure that my likely stay in a long term care facility will be less than a year and certainly less than two years. Average nursing home costs in MN are about $72000/yr ($6000/mo). I can afford that for a year or two, and the same for my wife, if we have to, but the odds are that neither of us will need to. We've talked it over with our adult children, and they agree that our money is for our care, and what's left over is left over. Plus, I think the odds are very good that one or the other of our children will step in to help with care if needed. I would much rather pay that money or more to one of our children than to a waiting to die nursing home.
We will not buy LTC insurance. All insurance does is insure the profits of the insurance company. There is no way that I intend to string my life out to the bitter end. We all have to die sometime, what's the problem with sooner rather than later?
We will not buy LTC insurance. All insurance does is insure the profits of the insurance company. There is no way that I intend to string my life out to the bitter end. We all have to die sometime, what's the problem with sooner rather than later?
Thanks for the info rainydays. I will check it out. jb, I hear you, no love for insurance companies here.
The problem with some diseases is that they can be very long term. You can be quite healthy physically with Alzheimers and not be on any form of life support, but not know who your relatives are. It's seriously on the rise in our population. I'm starting to see people I know coping with it or with a loved one that has it. It can be hard on the caregivers by stage 5 and I don't want to saddle anyone with that decision if it is my fate. I haven't decided yet which path is better, self insure or not. This is going to take some thought while I still have a mind to do it.
The problem with some diseases is that they can be very long term. You can be quite healthy physically with Alzheimers and not be on any form of life support, but not know who your relatives are. It's seriously on the rise in our population. I'm starting to see people I know coping with it or with a loved one that has it. It can be hard on the caregivers by stage 5 and I don't want to saddle anyone with that decision if it is my fate. I haven't decided yet which path is better, self insure or not. This is going to take some thought while I still have a mind to do it.
We have it. Our policies (John Hancock) are not terribly expensive. My MIL moved in with us in Virginia back in 1999, and lived with us for nearly four years. Physically, she was in relatively good health for someone her age (~80). Mentally, however, she was slipping steadily into dementia. When she just became too much for us to handle, we moved her into a very nice assisted living facility close to our home. At that point, we were very glad that she and her deceased husband had decided to buy LTC insurance policies years before. Her policy paid out quite nicely for the remaining 3 years or so of her life. I've no idea how the payouts compared with whatever the premiums had cost over the time she had the policy, but what I do know is that the fact that the policy was in place preserved a whole lot of her limited assets (I did her taxes for years). I see our LTC policies as a hedge against depleting the legacy I'd like to leave to my daughter someday. Compared to auto insurance and homeowner's insurance, a LTC insurance premium is a drop in the bucket. Rick
jebatty
Minister of Fire
I well understand the desire to leave a legacy to loved ones. Here is one legacy my wife and I are leaving. Eight years ago we decided to give a gift of a cruise to our three children and spouses, with us of course. During the cruise, probably while enjoying some martinis on the top deck bar, I mentioned whether our children would prefer us spending our money on them, together, while we are able, or wait for a bigger inheritance later. They could never afford a vacation like we gave them. They all said, spend it now. Then three years later we took them all, including their new children, to Jamaica for a week at an all inclusive -- 11 of us now. A hefty bill, but unbelievably great family time and fun. Come April 2011 another three years will have passed and we decided, this time as a family, on a week on the Maya Riviera south of Cancun in a Casa that will take all of us, now up to 13. The Casa is reserved and airline tickets are bought.
I guess what I'm saying is that, although these trips are expensive, they produce the most relaxed, least feeling of any pressure, and most conflict free of any of our family times. Although money sets the stage, money does not buy the family bonding and unity that develops during these times. And again, our children never could afford to pay for such vacations themselves.
All the money in the world, to care for me if incapacitated or demented, would not be enough to give up these family times. Yes, my wife and I will be stretched. Yes, we will give up things in our lives to do this, but the smiles, laughs, talk, banter, and love shared all are things that I would give up everything for, if that's what it took. And at the same time I wouldn't reserve a dollar to care for me while I wait to die if it meant that these times together could not happen. A legacy is far more than money or property; it is a passing on of values, inspiration, and generosity, even sacrifice, that will live far beyond money or property which remains after a person dies.
I guess what I'm saying is that, although these trips are expensive, they produce the most relaxed, least feeling of any pressure, and most conflict free of any of our family times. Although money sets the stage, money does not buy the family bonding and unity that develops during these times. And again, our children never could afford to pay for such vacations themselves.
All the money in the world, to care for me if incapacitated or demented, would not be enough to give up these family times. Yes, my wife and I will be stretched. Yes, we will give up things in our lives to do this, but the smiles, laughs, talk, banter, and love shared all are things that I would give up everything for, if that's what it took. And at the same time I wouldn't reserve a dollar to care for me while I wait to die if it meant that these times together could not happen. A legacy is far more than money or property; it is a passing on of values, inspiration, and generosity, even sacrifice, that will live far beyond money or property which remains after a person dies.
I can appreciate that perspective having taken my kids all around the world. We agree on trying to have as many good times and memories while possible. Although I don't see why we can't have LTC and keep traveling with family. We just have two boys and they are both single, and we love traveling to the less touristed locations that are often quite affordable. We too may be heading for Mexico again. We liked Playa del Carmen a lot, and also like Oaxaca, but may try north this time.
tradergordo
Minister of Fire
Just a few more things to consider, especially if you plan to pay in for decades - will the company be able to meet their obligations? A great number of banks and insurers went out of business or only held on by a thread thanks to government bailouts in the last couple of years. If baby boomers start crushing the long term care industry with claims, that whole industry could collapse, or in the very least, premiums for everyone would go way up. Plus these companies invest the money they collect in premiums, as everyone should know, investments can collapse in a heartbeat. Also, just because a company has "name recognition" doesn't mean you are necessarily dealing with a solid entity, your policy might be from some flaky subdivision of the company that is legally isolated from the parent company.
What I'm saying is, even if you have a policy, you may not be able to count on it ever paying off.
Also these policies are capped, that means there is a maximum payout. If you go over the maximum, you could still end up wiping out your entire estate, so again there is another situation where someone who has a policy essentially gets no benefit (or heirs get no benefit).
As for physician assisted suicide - why bother when hospice can keep you in a doped up state of bliss until you die?
What I'm saying is, even if you have a policy, you may not be able to count on it ever paying off.
Also these policies are capped, that means there is a maximum payout. If you go over the maximum, you could still end up wiping out your entire estate, so again there is another situation where someone who has a policy essentially gets no benefit (or heirs get no benefit).
As for physician assisted suicide - why bother when hospice can keep you in a doped up state of bliss until you die?
Swedishchef
Minister of Fire
Very interesting topic indeed. Here are my 2 cents worth:
When I was 9, my mother passed away. She has $120 000 in life insurance. My father put half ($60000) on a house and invested the other $60 000. My father, who I love dearly but is a workaholic, moved us to the same town as my god parents. Throughout my adolescence, my father always said he couldn't afford this, that, etc yet he was driving around in Subaru's and VOlvos.
When it came time for University, he said he could help pay for the first year. As for the rest, I was on my own.
My father is currently SEMI retired (he has a GREAT pension and is still working 30 hrs a week), he paid his house off in 10 years, no car payment, no kids at home.
3 years ago I had it out with him. I blew up. I told him that I am 100% certain my mother would have liked my sister and I to receive some of that money for our University education. He said the money was to be used to help raise us and that him buying a house satisfied that requirement. I said "so if mom would not have passed away we would have lived in a box?".
All that to say, he told my sister and I that we will receive an inheritance once he passes. However, I don't agree with that option. Enjoy what you can NOW, because tomorrow may never arrive. IF (not every does) a person plans on leaving some kind of resources for family or loved ones, spend it on them while everybody has their health. IF I were to receive an inheritance at 69 years old and have my own grand children, what was the point of saving it for me all those years?? I will simply pass it along to them.
When I die my kids will get what my house is worth and some life insurance. That's about it! I will spend what I can on them and their families in my older years.
Andrew
When I was 9, my mother passed away. She has $120 000 in life insurance. My father put half ($60000) on a house and invested the other $60 000. My father, who I love dearly but is a workaholic, moved us to the same town as my god parents. Throughout my adolescence, my father always said he couldn't afford this, that, etc yet he was driving around in Subaru's and VOlvos.
When it came time for University, he said he could help pay for the first year. As for the rest, I was on my own.
My father is currently SEMI retired (he has a GREAT pension and is still working 30 hrs a week), he paid his house off in 10 years, no car payment, no kids at home.
3 years ago I had it out with him. I blew up. I told him that I am 100% certain my mother would have liked my sister and I to receive some of that money for our University education. He said the money was to be used to help raise us and that him buying a house satisfied that requirement. I said "so if mom would not have passed away we would have lived in a box?".
All that to say, he told my sister and I that we will receive an inheritance once he passes. However, I don't agree with that option. Enjoy what you can NOW, because tomorrow may never arrive. IF (not every does) a person plans on leaving some kind of resources for family or loved ones, spend it on them while everybody has their health. IF I were to receive an inheritance at 69 years old and have my own grand children, what was the point of saving it for me all those years?? I will simply pass it along to them.
When I die my kids will get what my house is worth and some life insurance. That's about it! I will spend what I can on them and their families in my older years.
Andrew
tradergordo
Minister of Fire
Andrew - additudes like yours kind of scare me. If you don't have savings because you spent it all (say on your grand kids or whatever else you feel like spluging on) there is a lot of potential for a steep decline in quality of life if anything goes wrong, or your live longer than you thought you would. Personally I'd rather have a nice nest egg, live off the interest (conservative investment returns), and basically not have to worry about running out of funds before I die. That is probably the same additude your Dad has. He knows you won't take care of him
If your Mom wanted the money to go to you, she could have specified that in a will. I think our parents' money is theirs to do what they want with. A university education these days could cost over $100,000, multiply that by two if you have two kids. Its totally unreasonable for a child to expect their parents to sholder that cost, but not so unreasonable for the child to get a loan. You have to invest in your own future. It sounds like you burned some bridges with your Dad, and I hope you can patch things up.
If your Mom wanted the money to go to you, she could have specified that in a will. I think our parents' money is theirs to do what they want with. A university education these days could cost over $100,000, multiply that by two if you have two kids. Its totally unreasonable for a child to expect their parents to sholder that cost, but not so unreasonable for the child to get a loan. You have to invest in your own future. It sounds like you burned some bridges with your Dad, and I hope you can patch things up.
Swedishchef
Minister of Fire
Tradergordo: I can certainly appreciate your opinion. And I understand it as well.
Let's not forget: I am 30. I am a different generation than most people here (more than likely including yourself).
I work in a field where the average life span after retirement is 5-7 years and I am contributing to a Canadian Government pension. I will have a pension that is 70% of my last 5 years in my career if I stay until I am 59 (35 years working). When I turn 65, I will begin receiving my Canadian Pension PLan and Old Age Security $. What would I need savings for if I have a guarranteed pension? Even though I say that, I do still purchase RRSPs every year to suppliment my pension when I retire. I lost my mother when I was 9, she was 42. What good would it have been for her to save save save.....
My mother never had a will. Hence, it went to my father. I have no beef with my childhood, as a matter of fact it has shaped me into who I am today. I started working at 14 full time in the summer, 20 hrs a week during school, etc etc.
I never stated that my parents money should be mine. What I stated is that IF a person PLANS on leaving capital, etc to their kids, why not spend it on them now, help them out, etc instead of waiting until you 92 and they're 63?
Having a backup plan IF something should happen is key. Some people feel that their kids should take care of them when they get older, some don't. I wouldn't mind if my dad had to move in with me, we actually get along MUCH better in the past 3 years than the previous 15!
There has to be a happy balance. Far too many people save and save and save, yet they retire and become terminally ill, pass away or some other unfortunate tragedy occurs that restricts their ability when they're older to reap and enjoy the labour of their workforce days. UNless you have over a million, no long term care facility is free and your money will run out eventually.
At the same time, far too many people don't save a dime, finance to the MAX and are partially responsible for the world financial crisis we face today (which is a whole other topic). I even know of a guy who financed a futon for $5 a month
! What happens when they retire and something happens to them?
Like I said, balance is key. Prepare for the olden days as best as possible but remember that they may not last forever.
Sorry to Hijack your thread BeGreen. In Canada, most people (especially since the market crashed) will invest in GICs and Canada SAvings Bonds. Come to Canada for a vacation!! Some of the best surfing and nicest beaches are on Vancouver Island!
Andrew
Let's not forget: I am 30. I am a different generation than most people here (more than likely including yourself).
I work in a field where the average life span after retirement is 5-7 years and I am contributing to a Canadian Government pension. I will have a pension that is 70% of my last 5 years in my career if I stay until I am 59 (35 years working). When I turn 65, I will begin receiving my Canadian Pension PLan and Old Age Security $. What would I need savings for if I have a guarranteed pension? Even though I say that, I do still purchase RRSPs every year to suppliment my pension when I retire. I lost my mother when I was 9, she was 42. What good would it have been for her to save save save.....
My mother never had a will. Hence, it went to my father. I have no beef with my childhood, as a matter of fact it has shaped me into who I am today. I started working at 14 full time in the summer, 20 hrs a week during school, etc etc.
I never stated that my parents money should be mine. What I stated is that IF a person PLANS on leaving capital, etc to their kids, why not spend it on them now, help them out, etc instead of waiting until you 92 and they're 63?
Having a backup plan IF something should happen is key. Some people feel that their kids should take care of them when they get older, some don't. I wouldn't mind if my dad had to move in with me, we actually get along MUCH better in the past 3 years than the previous 15!
There has to be a happy balance. Far too many people save and save and save, yet they retire and become terminally ill, pass away or some other unfortunate tragedy occurs that restricts their ability when they're older to reap and enjoy the labour of their workforce days. UNless you have over a million, no long term care facility is free and your money will run out eventually.
At the same time, far too many people don't save a dime, finance to the MAX and are partially responsible for the world financial crisis we face today (which is a whole other topic). I even know of a guy who financed a futon for $5 a month
! What happens when they retire and something happens to them?Like I said, balance is key. Prepare for the olden days as best as possible but remember that they may not last forever.
Sorry to Hijack your thread BeGreen. In Canada, most people (especially since the market crashed) will invest in GICs and Canada SAvings Bonds. Come to Canada for a vacation!! Some of the best surfing and nicest beaches are on Vancouver Island!
Andrew
To follow on Andrew's comments. I tend to fall more into line with you, Andrew. Here's why:
The 'rents were decent, hardworking, law abiding citizens who valued education and expected civic participation from their kids. They were savers, lived below their means and imparted those values to their kids. But everything in their lives was geared toward saving and over time they forgot how to have fun with some of the proceeds of their labor and attention to small details in a budget. They were definitely into holding on to everything for as long as they could. In short, I think they were slaves to their bankroll and the cool stuff they'd acquired or inherited. That there was little to no planning with respect to their estate stands in mute testimony to the abject foolishness of trying to control everything until the last minute.
FIL took the opposite view. He couldn't wait to start giving things to his kids. Real estate, proceeds from an advantageous real estate venture, some interesting antique/tool/book, interest earnings on financial holdings... didn't matter. Once, I told him how absolutely flabbergasted I was by such generosity. He looked at me and smiled. He told me he'd lived frugally and worked for many years to set something aside for his kids. And that he'd never seen much sense in making much loved children wait until he died to enjoy the benefit of all he'd worked so hard for and wanted them to have!
Anyway, there is something I object to in LTC insurance, something fundamentally wrong with the whole thing. Look, if I'm drooling into my lap and have no clue where on earth I am or who anyone important in my life is, it's time to check out! I don't want some orderly changeing my diaper or catheter every day. And I'm sure as hell not interested in forking over my hard earned pork to some insurance company when I could be doing something that brings me delight. I don't believe there are any guarantees in life and I simply don't trust that the policy will be honored.
I think the whole issue of the necessity of Long Term Care also ushers in the uncomfortable (though necessary, IMO) topics of assisted suicide and euthanasia. But those are not topics for a DIY forum, are they?
The 'rents were decent, hardworking, law abiding citizens who valued education and expected civic participation from their kids. They were savers, lived below their means and imparted those values to their kids. But everything in their lives was geared toward saving and over time they forgot how to have fun with some of the proceeds of their labor and attention to small details in a budget. They were definitely into holding on to everything for as long as they could. In short, I think they were slaves to their bankroll and the cool stuff they'd acquired or inherited. That there was little to no planning with respect to their estate stands in mute testimony to the abject foolishness of trying to control everything until the last minute.
FIL took the opposite view. He couldn't wait to start giving things to his kids. Real estate, proceeds from an advantageous real estate venture, some interesting antique/tool/book, interest earnings on financial holdings... didn't matter. Once, I told him how absolutely flabbergasted I was by such generosity. He looked at me and smiled. He told me he'd lived frugally and worked for many years to set something aside for his kids. And that he'd never seen much sense in making much loved children wait until he died to enjoy the benefit of all he'd worked so hard for and wanted them to have!
Anyway, there is something I object to in LTC insurance, something fundamentally wrong with the whole thing. Look, if I'm drooling into my lap and have no clue where on earth I am or who anyone important in my life is, it's time to check out! I don't want some orderly changeing my diaper or catheter every day. And I'm sure as hell not interested in forking over my hard earned pork to some insurance company when I could be doing something that brings me delight. I don't believe there are any guarantees in life and I simply don't trust that the policy will be honored.
I think the whole issue of the necessity of Long Term Care also ushers in the uncomfortable (though necessary, IMO) topics of assisted suicide and euthanasia. But those are not topics for a DIY forum, are they?
Interesting thoughts on all sides. I appreciate the the difficulty of the subject, though there's no life thoughts forum here. But I appreciate the non-political, candid discussion about a real issue that affects all of us. Thanks for your input.
Bobbin, the problem is that if you are physically healthy, but no longer mentally with the program and too great a burden for your family, assisted suicide is not an option. As a matter of fact, if you are in the system at that point, they will legally fight you. This is what happened with my MIL.
One approach towards the end of one's days is to game the system. Go out broke and hope there is a safety net your family can toss you into. But that too offers no guarantees.
Bobbin, the problem is that if you are physically healthy, but no longer mentally with the program and too great a burden for your family, assisted suicide is not an option. As a matter of fact, if you are in the system at that point, they will legally fight you. This is what happened with my MIL.
One approach towards the end of one's days is to game the system. Go out broke and hope there is a safety net your family can toss you into. But that too offers no guarantees.
tradergordo
Minister of Fire
BeGreen said:
I agree with the thoughts that balance is important. I admit that sometimes I am way too much of a tightwad. And perhaps I'm also a little too paranoid about the future than I need to be. I guess I'm just the type of person who always wants to be prepared for the worst. Personally I think people counting on future pensions and government payments (Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and the Canadian equivalents) are delusional. The US government for example has over $13 trillion in debt and the projections into the future are horrible. The only way to meet future obligations is to dramatically lower the value of the dollar (inflation). If you thought you were going to get, say, $50,000 a year for the rest of your life at some future point, you should probably expect that because of inflation, that will be the equivalent of $5,000 to $10,000 today. You might be able to eat and pay rent on a very small apartment, that's about it. If your house was paid off, you probably would be forced to sell it because you would not be able to afford the property taxes without significant savings.
On the other hand, being really loving and generous towards your children will make you much happier, make them much happier, and they will be much more likely to take care of you and/or let you live with them if you needed to, in old age.
Part of the reason I'm pessimistic about future standards of living in the US/Canada is that I'm an IT guy who works with almost 40 IT guys outsourced in India. These guys make 8-10k per year in the same roles that people in the US make 80 to 100k doing (writing software, database design and administration, web development, etc). I haven't had a raise in 10 years, and honestly I don't expect one for the next 10 years either. Their standard of living has to go up, ours has to go down, until at some point we are closer to even. Look at salaries in China, its the same thing (the majority in that country do not even own a refrigerator!).
Most Americans simply do not know how good they have it, or how fragile the system actually is. I think things will start to implode next year with a slow motion stock market crash and huge wave of bankruptcies and foreclosures. Canada's housing bubble will burst just as badly as ours... hope I'm wrong.
Yes, I too appreciate the thoughts here. When I was caring for my mother in my home I was the only one of my friends who was doing it. There was only a very occasional story on the news about the "caregiving tsumami" that is just beginning to break on our shores. None of my friends had the slightest notion or concern about it. They couldn't understand how draining it was to have to sift through legal documents and sit in lawyers offices to put things in enough semblance of order to isolate and preserve certain assets while making sure the funding for a nursing home was set aside, too. Frazzled nerves at work were usually met with "suck it up", "get over it", "it can't be that bad", "you're not the only one going through this"; there was little support. And in 4 yrs. I missed fewer than 3 days of work. Suffice it to say that several are now facing the same thing and some have commented that they wished they'd been more understanding. (life lesson there!).
Be Green, the only thing in my mother's favor when she entered that dreadful nursing hole was a seriously compromised body that perpetual UTIs eventually overwhelmed. She had long since faded into dementia (likely stroke related) but still knew me and watching her fade away was so horrible. I well recall the pages of "health care directives" and the grim "living will"... how much medication or medical intervention do you want, etc.. At the very end, before she went to that awful place I would have given anything to just slip her a forever sleeping pill and watch her drift off to a final sleep in her bed, in a home she knew and loved. We give our pets better end of life care than we give our elderly, IMO.
I understand how upsetting that notion can be for many, but for others it isn't horrible at all. My parents were that way. So was my aunt who refused treatment of her cancer and allowed the disease to take its course... "I've had 84 great years, dear. I have no complaints and I only wish I, or you, could simply order the drug to hasten the process along.". My experience has left me contemptuous of the whole LTC scene. What I came to realize is that the frail, sick, demented elderly are worth more alive and "in the system" than they are dead. They are little more than fodder for a system that systematically robs them of freedom and dignity while angling for their last dime. And that's why I want to see open and honest discussion of both assisted suicide and euthanasia. It's not a topic to be undertaken lightly or glibly, but if it can be discussed in the Netherlands and Switzerland why can't we do the same thing here? I would like to see it added to the "menu of life", that's all. You can order it or not. Your choice.
Be Green, the only thing in my mother's favor when she entered that dreadful nursing hole was a seriously compromised body that perpetual UTIs eventually overwhelmed. She had long since faded into dementia (likely stroke related) but still knew me and watching her fade away was so horrible. I well recall the pages of "health care directives" and the grim "living will"... how much medication or medical intervention do you want, etc.. At the very end, before she went to that awful place I would have given anything to just slip her a forever sleeping pill and watch her drift off to a final sleep in her bed, in a home she knew and loved. We give our pets better end of life care than we give our elderly, IMO.
I understand how upsetting that notion can be for many, but for others it isn't horrible at all. My parents were that way. So was my aunt who refused treatment of her cancer and allowed the disease to take its course... "I've had 84 great years, dear. I have no complaints and I only wish I, or you, could simply order the drug to hasten the process along.". My experience has left me contemptuous of the whole LTC scene. What I came to realize is that the frail, sick, demented elderly are worth more alive and "in the system" than they are dead. They are little more than fodder for a system that systematically robs them of freedom and dignity while angling for their last dime. And that's why I want to see open and honest discussion of both assisted suicide and euthanasia. It's not a topic to be undertaken lightly or glibly, but if it can be discussed in the Netherlands and Switzerland why can't we do the same thing here? I would like to see it added to the "menu of life", that's all. You can order it or not. Your choice.
Long Term Care insurance does not equate to "nursing home". Long Term Care insurance can be tapped to assist with the costs of in-home care beyond the family members' capabilities, and things like "respite care" during a family's absence, or to help pay for the costs of an assisted living facility, which is a different animal than a nursing home. LTC insurance is, like insurance in general, a way to put some money aside now in manageable packets (premiums), against the possibility that a day will come when money is required in unmanageable packets. Just like all insurance, it's an opportunity to shift risk, at a price. If you're willing to accept the risk yourself, then pass on it. No way to know whether or not it'll ever be needed. Obviously, if you just get up and croak one day, then LTC insurance was $$$ spent that will go to defray someone else's needs, not yours. LTC insurance does not equate to prolonging the life of a drooling vegetable, unless that's how the family chooses to use it. Just some additional thoughts. Rick
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