NEW ALDERLEA T5, LOW BURN, WATER IN IRON WALLS AND BRICKS?

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DALE SR 3

Member
Feb 5, 2009
37
S.E. MICHIGAN
We replaced our inefficient and smoky woodstove at the cabin with a Alderlea T5 early November. So far we are not impressed and almost wish we could send it back.

Brochure says 70% effic. It is more like 35% and not the 72,000BTU but more like 35,000. The logs load in end wise front to back and burn only the first 6" at a time. The burn eventually gets to the back but only when the front goes to ember stage.

The glass is constantly coated with black soot on edges.

Embers never burn down to a grey ash, in fact at the back of firebox the wood remains in a cinder form. A hard black ember that may be warm in middle but not burning unless you really pound it with a poker letting the sparks fly in the process.

When installed the installer stated we had very good dry wood since he tested several pieces for moisture. He threw in a bunch of pressed wood for starters along with our wood to let the fire rip. He then told family how to use fireplace, temps such as getting it up to 1000 degrees and then giving a gage that went up to 800. Bricks should change to natural color before turning damper down, etc.

The next day we went to check on excessive level of embers and found huge hard black pieces of warm but intact pressed wood under embers. We even found kindling still intact under the embers.see cinders picture.

The company then said we need to cure the iron and bricks of the moisture that is inside of them. (I should of asked them if that is why cars rust but did not think of it in time).
To do this we need to before each season constantly burn at HI wide open for 24 hours or more a full load of wood at all times. I know about curing the stove of paint and dust etc and it smells for a bit, but that sounded ridiculous. Besides It was only 40 degrees we needed fans and all windows open to stay cool. They said it was NOT designed for mild weather and did not draft as well. Too bad for you guys heating your homes with this stove!

After hi heat cycle we had a depth of 5 inches of 1"-4" embers and could not put wood in and burned our ash bucket, stove interior was turning red. Logs burned on top with a full load but when we turned down the damper finally,logs still burned at front only. We were told to keep burning at HI, and to stir and break up the larger embers. This caused dangerous sparks to fly out the door! the lady said she would call us back, she NEVER did.
It also takes long time for new kindling to even start up, it just glows & smokes first.

The chimney only got up to about 350 degrees 18 inches above the stove. The chimney specs are a 6" double wall pipe extends vertical about 4ft up from stove, then back horizontal about 3ft. It fits into the exterior chimney which is of cinder block with a 7" square steel insert. The chimney from base of fireplace to top is 16'9"

With only half the heat output we surely won't get overheated but in very cold weather we won't get warm either in back bedrooms.
The concealed cook top should remain that way-concealed, it does not even boil water at less than 200 degrees
We were advised we do not need a cold air supply, but I think it would help? No air is getting to rear of firebox!
Any ideas or suggestions besides returning it which is not possible.

My fireplace at our house is a dream compared to this monstrosity.

IMG 2110 IS FRONT VIEW
Image 2121 is side view
Image cinders is sample of cinders found after 1 day large pieces would not break apart with a poker Sticks on left side is the unburned kindling which was found under the embers from rear of firebox.
img 2111: showing wide open windows on 30 degree day because we had to "cure" for 30 hours the water out of the steel, also shows smoky glass despite hot firebox & 5" of embers. Even with 5" of embers reloads took a match to light kindling.
 

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Hang on there, Dale. There will be experienced wood burners and more specifically, PE Alderlea burners, on here to troubleshoot the issues for you. The good news is that it is NOT the stove, so you didn't waste your money or shouldn't think about wanting to bring it back. Way too many happy users of this stove and way too many good reviews for it to be the stove, itself. In fact, it was the people on here that own the Alderlea and have experience with them that helped me decide to purchase one this past summer -- and I couldn't be happier with my decision. It will be these people that will chime in here to help you out.

All I know is that I've been burning in my stove for probably one month, and have had no issues. I'm able to get anywhere from 7-10hr burn times with it, with no tinkering once the air is shut down. I start with 1/4 Super Cedar (fire starter) on the bottom-middle of the stove, with two smaller splits to the left and right of that (loaded front to back or North/South). Across that I lay kindling (East/West). Then on top of that, some more small splits (N/S) again. Light the Super Cedar with the air adjusted wide open. Let that take off until the stove top temp reaches 350-400*. When that happens start adjusting your air down in stages. Some, from that point, adjust it 1/4 of the way down and some can go 1/2 (I do 1/2). Then when the stove top reaches around 500* adjust it down to 3/4 and then full soon after, depending on what the fire looks like to you at this point. These aren't specific instructions, as eveybody's wood and setups are different, but is a good general guideline to go by to get started. If you are burning like this, with setting your air down in stages, and getting these results, then the more experienced people will help with that.

As far as the moisture in the bricks is concerned, this topic was in several past threads, so that's nothing new or of a surprise. Having to burn at full air for 24hrs is something that was never discussed here, so that part is new. The moisture in mine seemed to burn out after the 4 or 5 break in fires that I did in the very beginning.

As for the black on the glass, the only time I get that is when one of the splits I'm burning is touching or right near the glass. It will darken in the bottom left or right corners, but is easily cleaned. Other than that, the glass stays pretty darn clean. I would say maybe it was your wood, but you commented that your wood was tested and it was fine. What percent moisture did he find when he tested it? You are looking for anything 20% and less to burn the best.

Hang in there Dale, you will be able to enjoy this baby soon enough!!
 
Keep in mind that if you are using a surface mount magnetic thermometer on a DOUBLE wall flue, you're only taking a reading of the temp of the outer jacket on the double wall connector pipe. You'll need a probe thermometer to get an accurate interior/flue gas reading.
 
DALE SR 3 said:
-The logs load in end wise front to back and burn only the first 6" at a time. The burn eventually gets to the back but only when the front goes to ember stage.

-The glass is constantly coated with black soot on edges.

-Embers never burn down to a grey ash, in fact at the back of firebox the wood remains in a cinder form. A hard black ember that may be warm in middle but not burning unless you really pound it with a poker letting the sparks fly in the process.

-The next day we went to check on excessive level of embers and found huge hard black pieces of warm but intact pressed wood under embers. We even found kindling still intact under the embers.see cinders picture.

To me, this screams wet wood.


When installed the installer stated we had very good dry wood since he tested several pieces for moisture.

What were the moisture readings?


The company then said we need to cure the iron and bricks of the moisture that is inside of them.

I've never heard of this. I have never heard anyone else mention this. I have never heard BeGreen mention this for anyone else that has purchased a T-Series PE. Break-in fires are one thing. This seems odd. [EDIT: I guess, this was just an odd way of describing the break-in fire]

There is a chance that there is something wrong with the stove (somehow it is starved for air) and a few T-Series owners will chime in soon. But it still seems to be a wood issue to me.
 
You don't mention this, but if the installers didn't leave a copy of the owner's manual, you should be able to download one online. Reading this cover to cover may provide some clues as to the problem. Break-in fires should be covered, for example.
 
Really sounds like wet wood to me. When your installer checked moisture, did he split a piece and check inside? Or just stick the probes in the outside? Wood will be a lot drier on the outside. If you want to be sure, go buy a couple bundles of kiln dried stuff at the grocery store, and see how that burns. I bet you'll see a big difference.

As for the water in the iron, well, cast iron is very porous. It's gonna need a few fires to cure. It was also discussed earlier this fall, that you should do a couple small burns at the beginning of each season to dry any moisture, that may have built up over the off season, out.
 
1. Moisture from bricks goes away after the first cpl burns, and does not return.
2. Agree with moisture in wood AND closing the air control too much, AND too soon.
3. A cabin installation of a convection type stove may not be the best unit, AND AFTER owning a "smoke dragon" radiant beast will lead to these observations.
4. The picture labled "kindling" looks like fresh yard waste to me.
5. Draft with the current setup maybe less than ideal, right angles dumping into an exterior intermittantly use (cabin) chimney.
~~~~~~~~~~`
Stack, store, split wood better, and in the meantime, expect to leave the air control in the more open position. Get everything stove, chimney hot then SLOWLY start monkeying with the air control
 
Trust the stove. It is a good one. But the stove is only as good as it's flue and fuel. Open up the trivet and put the thermometer on the stove top, in front and to the left or right of the stove pipe about 4". With good wood, you should be seeing about 500-700F stove top temps once the stove is going well.

I really hate to say this, but the experts at the company are giving you misinformation. Running the stove wide open for a full fire is not a good policy and completely unnecessary with a steel stove. If you want to "dry out" the bricks. Do a small fire at the beginning of the season, then have at it.

What I am suspecting here is poor draft + so so wood. It may be compounded by the wood, hard to say without comparing it to other wood. When they put a meter to it, what did it read? Did they resplit it and check the moisture on the freshly split face of the wood? If not, the reading may not be accurate. Wood surface can be dry while the interior of the wood is still damp. The 90 in the connector is effectively removing about 3 ft of height from the pipe. The week kindling start up is an indication of weak draft. It's going to take some heat to get the remaining cold chimney drawing well. I would get some carpentry and cabinetry scraps and use them for starting the fire. Maybe also mix them in with your current wood.

What type of wood are you burning?
 
It seems there is evidence for both poor wood and poor draft, plus apparently a company that doesn't know as much as they think they know. Why would the wood burn only partially? Maybe the wood isn't dry. The only evidence that the wood is dry is from the same company that told you to burn wide open for 24 hours straight with a full load of wood to force the moisture out of the metal. Maybe they don't know dry wood, or maybe the pieces they looked at were not typical of your wood supply.

That said, you still didn't have great results burning pressed wood, which I geuss means some sort of biobrick or manufactured log and should have been dry. That, plus the difficulty burning down the coals, seems like a draft problem.

I am not an expert in stoves, but it seems to me that driving the moisture out of the bricks and metal shouldn't be a major problem, and shouldn't take 24 hours of wide open burning. Is there any moisture at all inside of the metal of a new stove? is there significant moisture inside any metal? How much moisture do fire bricks hold? They should dry out pretty fast.
 
I'm thinking that your chimney is too large for the T5. The T5 requires a 6" chimney-- which is 28 square inches of area

Your install sounds OK from the stove top out to the chimney. If your steel liner is indeed 7 " square then you are dealing with 49 square inches of area--21 square inches too much!!

I think your problems with the stove will 'go away' if you put a 6 inch steel liner down the chimney!
 
I'm a new T5 user this year and love it - though there was a bit of a learning curve. I had the opposite problem, fires getting out of control due to too much draft. I listened to the advice of wise folks here (not the stove salesman/installer) and I have it running like a champ. Completely warms my 1700 SF 3-level split from the lowest level.

It looks like the magnetic thermometer you have on the flu pipe is the one I bought at Menards. I threw that one in the garbage after I found out it was generally about 100 degrees off. I bought this probe thermometer for the flue pipe:


http://www.amazon.com/FlueGardTM-Thermometer-temperatures-SPECIFICALLY-DOUBLE-WALLED/dp/B000LZDVAU


and this one for the stovetop:


http://www.amazon.com/thermometer-t...1?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1291162408&sr=1-1


Some folks on here think the thermometers are a waste of time and money, some people swear by them. So far I'm with the latter group.

So....definitely hang in there, it's a great stove. I feel your frustration but you'll get there after some tweaks and trial and error.
 
One small thing to check would be the pitch of the horizontal connector pipe. It should be pitched uphill towards the chimney about 1/4" / ft. or more.
 
DALE SR 3 said:
We were advised we do not need a cold air supply, but I think it would help? No air is getting to rear of firebox!

I have fresh air on mine because I like the idea of not using up my room air, but fresh air shouldn't matter for how much is fed into your firebox. It should draw the same amount of air regardless of whether or not it's fed from outside. Like others are saying, it's probably lack of sufficient draft not pulling the air in.
 
BeGreen said:
Trust the stove. It is a good one. But the stove is only as good as it's flue and fuel. Open up the trivet and put the thermometer on the stove top, in front and to the left or right of the stove pipe about 4". With good wood, you should be seeing about 500-700F stove top temps once the stove is going well.

I really hate to say this, but the experts at the company are giving you misinformation. Running the stove wide open for a full fire is not a good policy and completely unnecessary with a steel stove. If you want to "dry out" the bricks. Do a small fire at the beginning of the season, then have at it.

What I am suspecting here is poor draft + so so wood. It may be compounded by the wood, hard to say without comparing it to other wood. When they put a meter to it, what did it read? Did they resplit it and check the moisture on the freshly split face of the wood? If not, the reading may not be accurate. Wood surface can be dry while the interior of the wood is still damp. The 90 in the connector is effectively removing about 3 ft of height from the pipe. The week kindling start up is an indication of weak draft. It's going to take some heat to get the remaining cold chimney drawing well. I would get some carpentry and cabinetry scraps and use them for starting the fire. Maybe also mix them in with your current wood.

What type of wood are you burning?

Maple, Ash, Cherry The readings on several pieces of wood both split and unsplit, on ends and in the middle were between 16-19.

Temps on stove top below warming plates were max of 500

The kindling and poor starts occurred even on reloads during the max heat drying out the steel stage with several inches of embers in the firebox
 
DALE SR 3 said:
reloads during the max heat drying out the steel stage

If the same people that got you doing this are the same ones that got your moisture readings. I think I would just take it all with a grain of salt. You got a steel stove there with some make-up on it.
 
Is there a cleanout door on the outside chimney? If so, is it sealed gasketed tight?

If there isn't it sounds like the marginal height, together with the oversize flue is providing weak draft. As a test, get a 4ft length of 7" heating vent pipe. Then go up and pull the cap on the chimney and cram that in there. Stuff the corners with some unfaced fiberglass. This is temporary, so don't worry about a cap. Fire the stove up and see if there is a dramatic change in behavior.

And don't forget about trying the carpentry scraps.
 
madison said:
1. Moisture from bricks goes away after the first cpl burns, and does not return.
2. Agree with moisture in wood AND closing the air control too much, AND too soon.
3. A cabin installation of a convection type stove may not be the best unit, AND AFTER owning a "smoke dragon" radiant beast will lead to these observations.
4. The picture labled "kindling" looks like fresh yard waste to me.
5. Draft with the current setup maybe less than ideal, right angles dumping into an exterior intermittantly use (cabin) chimney.
~~~~~~~~~~`
Stack, store, split wood better, and in the meantime, expect to leave the air control in the more open position. Get everything stove, chimney hot then SLOWLY start monkeying with the air control

1We have no problem burning same wood from the same stack in other stoves, the stove did not even burn the pressed wood brought in by installer!

2. MY PARENTS AND I TAKE AFRONT TO THIS STATEMENT. Our 120 acres of Northern MI hardwood-Ash,Cherry, Maple, Ironwood, Beech and Hickory should not be considered yard-waste by any means. We stack firewood length logs to season for a minimum of 1 year, these stacks are covered with a piece of tin to keep rain off of top. Sides are left open to air. After a year the logs are split and then stored in a enclosed but airy woodshed until sold used by us at home or used at cabin.

3 We start the stove slow to warm up everything slow before we even think of closing the damper. We usually wait until after a reload when a bed of embers help the logs burn with a more closed damper at least we did when we had the old stove. The new stove did not work from the start.
 
north of 60 said:
DALE SR 3 said:
reloads during the max heat drying out the steel stage

If the same people that got you doing this are the same ones that got your moisture readings. I think I would just take it all with a grain of salt. You got a steel stove there with some make-up on it.

I have an epa stove Lennox Montecito, My dad has one and we deliver several loads of wood to people per year with the same wood we use at the cabin. I have no complaints and have received no complaints from others. This stove did not burn good from the start. We called installer when wood only burned in first 6 inches of log and left the large cinders in rear. The only thing he and company suggested was the burning out of water in the iron and bricks.

We put in paper,pieces of flaky bark in the fireplace during reloads on top of the bed of embers and it smoked for several minutes and glowed red at edges until I finally lit it with a match.

It probably is draft but need most inexpensive fix. It is NOT the wood, News Paper remains intact but turns black at rear of firebox for at least 30 minutes during a burn on HI while the log is burning in front only. Can anybody explain this
 
We also burn Beech, Ironwood, Hickory and a little bit of Oak
 
Often stated on this message board is: It's not the stove. It is either 1. operator error, 2. chimney or 3. wood.

1. Doesn't sound like operator error other than the fact of you leaving the door open too long but I understand you can't keep the fire going if you close it so you are forgiven. :)

2. Chimney: You've already been give advice that your liner is too large for your stove which will give you poor draft/poor fire/poor heat. Heed the advice already given on this topic.

3. Wood: Is this your first EPA certified stove? If yes, you will find EPA stoves are very picky about wood. Wood you can burn well in an older non-EPA stove won't burn for squat in the newer EPA stoves. EPA stoves require seasoned/seasoned/seasoned wood. Wood cut into rounds, stored under tin for a year, finally split and then stored inside is not the same as split/stacked and seasoned outside for a year.

There are lots of wood stove gurus here to help. All you have to do is listen/follow their advice.

Shari
 
DALE SR 3 said:
After a year the logs are split and then stored in a enclosed but airy woodshed until sold used by us at home or used at cabin.

I'm just another newbie here. But I've heard a lot that wood doesn't start drying until it is split. Also the new EPA stove is much pickier for dry woods than the old one. May be due to the relatively restricted primary air inlet (to reduce heat loss up the chimney).

But I feel the same as other that the major problem is an insufficient draft. Make sure nothing block your chimney and try what BeGreen said. Hope that it solves your problem. :)

Cheers.....Som
 
DALE SR 3 said:
north of 60 said:
DALE SR 3 said:
reloads during the max heat drying out the steel stage

If the same people that got you doing this are the same ones that got your moisture readings. I think I would just take it all with a grain of salt. You got a steel stove there with some make-up on it.

I have an epa stove Lennox Montecito, My dad has one and we deliver several loads of wood to people per year with the same wood we use at the cabin. I have no complaints and have received no complaints from others. This stove did not burn good from the start. We called installer when wood only burned in first 6 inches of log and left the large cinders in rear. The only thing he and company suggested was the burning out of water in the iron and bricks.

We put in paper,pieces of flaky bark in the fireplace during reloads on top of the bed of embers and it smoked for several minutes and glowed red at edges until I finally lit it with a match.

It probably is draft but need most inexpensive fix. It is NOT the wood, News Paper remains intact but turns black at rear of firebox for at least 30 minutes during a burn on HI while the log is burning in front only. Can anybody explain this

Seems you have answered your own question.

Shari
 
I don't know much about the T5 so this might seem like a dumb question. Is there perhaps a knock out for the 4 inch air inlet on the ash pan or in the bottom of the stove that wasn't removed? My regency had 1 which I didn't realize until I had the same issue. Took it out and all was fine.
 
Sorry we need LEAST Expensive repair, I hope we do not need to run a new chimney, the ceiling is very odd in family room addition,multiroofs?
 
Right now you need is answers and a better functioning stove.

Try the flue test suggested. It's a cheap test. If it works, then you will need to decide the next step. If this is a masonry chimney and the flue extension works, then the chimney may not need to be replaced, just extended.
 
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