New backup saw, generators, and PPE

[Danno77]

well, I got some stuffs when I was out a shopping with the wife on friday. Made it to menards and picked up two small generators. they are rated at 1200w, so not huge, but big enough to run some power tools, or in case of a blackout i figure I should be able to run the fridge, freezer, and furnace blower along with a few lights. I've got electric water heat, so that's a no go.

Also picked up a backup saw, we'll see if it was a waste of $99. it's a Blue Max with 45cc and a 20" bar. I'll let you know what I think about it, but I'm doubting I'll be tossing the Stihl to the side, even after putting a proper chain on it. Funny thing about this saw is that it's called a "Super Steel."....hmmmm, wonder if that's a coincidence that there happen to be certain Stihl saws with the word super in the model name.....

Also made it over to the farm store and bought a pair of Husky chaps (not on sale) as well as a hard hat. I haven't used a hard hat before, but I don't know why because they are only about $5. thats cheap safety right there. The chaps look real nice and seem to be well made, but i just don't feel right about all this blue, shouldn't real chainsaw stuff be orange? lol.

so, anybody keeping track, I have the following PPE, feel free to comment on my shortcuts cause i'm open to suggestions.

Head to toe:

hard hat
Ear protection
Safety glasses
Chaps
steel toed boots

You'll notice that I don't have face protection, nor do I have any real upper body protection or hand protection. The boots also are just the toe protection and not really much for foot safety.

I'm looking for a pair of gloves, nobody carries any in store around here that are actual safety gloves, and I'd really like to try them on.

 

[Danno77]

I like these two little generators. pretty small and cheap, but they are definitely worth the 80 bucks each I paid for them. I looked up the electrical specs on my household things today, and it doesn't look like I'll be able to power the furnace blower with one, though. it's rated at 1700watts max (don't know what the running wattage is). I can run most everything else, too. I'm probably gonna run the fridge and freezer and lights/outlets in my kitchen (although won't have enough power to run anything sig in there) the other generator will power the rest of the house's lights and probably tvs and something to entertain us if the power is really down. probably close off most of the house and use the main portion that can be heated by the wood stove. All-in-all i've never been actually prepared for power outages, but now I think it wouldn't be the worst inconvenience in the world. biggest pain is going to be hot water. i'll have to heat some on the gas stove, but at least I have that option.

Still haven't used the new saw, so can't comment on it.

 

[Danno77]

question:
If I throw the main switch and feed into the panel using a generator, how do I know when the power is back on. Does anybody have any solution for this that doesn't involve having neighbors call me or seeing if lights are on in the street? an alarm, a light signal, something along those lines would be nice.

 

[Gooserider]

I have a pair of "Lumberworks" gloves that I purchased at Amicks - they are actually having a pre-holiday sale on them right now for a couple bucks off their usual price. I did a review on them a while back that you can find with the search, but essentially they are the highest level of protection gloves I've seen in the US, and I think they also meet or exceed the top EU standard for protection. They are of the tight fitting "technical" style glove with a stretch knit back and imitation leather palm and fingers - They also have some anti-vibe gel in the grabbing area to make the saw a little easer to hang onto. They seem pretty durable, though I wouldn't use them (or any other glove w/ that type of material) for firewood handling - I use a rubber coated Atlas glove for that...

IMHO they are the best gloves out there. Comfortable, fits well, gives good dexterity, and serious protection...

I wouldn't waste my money on a SECOND pair of those so called chainsaw gloves that Husky sells - those are one-size-doesn't-fit-any leather gloves w/ chip catcher gauntlets, and the lowest level of protection the EU recognizes... (I can't even feel the padding in them, it's so thin)

On the hard hat - good protection, and while a separate hat is low cost, I'd really recommend getting a "loggers hat" combo of a hard hat w/ built in muffs and screen - better fit and a lot more convenient. Look for one w/ a "ratchet knob" type adjustment on the harness, not the "tab and slot" style - if you shop around a bit, you can get either for about the same price, and the ratchet knob is MUCH more convenient to use.

On the generator question, I feel obliged to point out that it is ILLEGAL to backfeed into the panel, even after throwing the main, although many people do it... You would also want to be very careful trying to hook up two gennies to the same panel as you can get some interesting (i.e. bad...) results from phase combinations... That said, the only real way to tell when the power comes back is to watch for the neighbors lights...

Gooserider

 

[stee6043]

question:
If I throw the main switch and feed into the panel using a generator, how do I know when the power is back on. Does anybody have any solution for this that doesn't involve having neighbors call me or seeing if lights are on in the street? an alarm, a light signal, something along those lines would be nice.

I have a gen panel setup at my house and run it with a 5500w unit. The generator, when setup properly, will run a completely seperate set of breakers. So when the power comes back on you'll see items that were not on the generator come on. All you have to do is go downstairs and switch the gen panel back to the main at that point.

If your generator is admitedly small/cheap I'm not sure I'd spend the money to get it setup on your house circuit. It takes some juice to get through all that copper. You may be better off with extension cords if you doubt the power of the generator....

 

[Danno77]

Thanks for the advice guys. I wasn't planning on backfeeding, but putting a direct switch in there for one of the small generators and then flipping the breakers on most everything else in the house except for the lights and outlets in a select few areas. the other generator after thinking about it for a while, will be connected to a separate line that I can run to both the fridge and deep freeze and also probably a small space heater if i need it for any location the stove isn't heating well enough for pipes in the house.

I'm surprised at the ratings on these little 2hp engined generators. It says that it should run 8.5hrs on one tank of gas and a tank is 1.2gallons.

I read somewhere that the running time they give is when under half of their continuous load (800w so half is 400w) So a gallon of gas every 4 hours isn't the worst thing I've ever heard of and the way these tanks are hooked up right on top and easy to get to, i'm wondering if I might find it easy to throw a bigger tank on one of them.


Now, about those gloves. I need to look into them. what about upper body protection. i don't read about that too much from people here, but there was that post recently about a police officer or firefighter (can't remember which) who took it to the chest and even though that was probably a freak thing, and he was likely cutting over his head.... I'm not gonna say i've never done that, but i wondered about the availability/fit/cost/function of a sawing jacket or something.

 

[stee6043]

To be safe (and up to code) it should be physically impossible for you to run the generator circuits from the main power source when your generator is connected. In a standard install this is accomplished with a seperate sub-panel and a breaker that forces the connection to the main breaker "off" when you switch it to generater power. You can buy these types of switches from Norhtern Tool online and others.

For what it's worth.......I bet you'll loose more than 400W in the lines in your house. By the time your done wiring up an 800W generator to your house you will be lucky to power a few light bulbs on the other end...

 

[Danno77]

To be safe (and up to code) it should be physically impossible for you to run the generator circuits from the main power source when your generator is connected. In a standard install this is accomplished with a seperate sub-panel and a breaker that forces the connection to the main breaker "off" when you switch it to generater power. You can buy these types of switches from Norhtern Tool online and others.

For what it's worth.......I bet you'll loose more than 400W in the lines in your house. By the time your done wiring up an 800W generator to your house you will be lucky to power a few light bulbs on the other end...

I hope that flipping the breakers off of everything except the three rooms should keep the rating as high as possible. I found charts with wire guages and how much loss I should see through those, and I bet i get over 2% loss but nothing that should be a huge deal for the things I want to run on the outlets and the ceiling lights. my whole house is wired with 12, not the 14, so that helps a little.

the problems with transfer switches are that they are freaking expensive. I do understand the code issues as well as the safety issues. Perhaps another alternative solution is to run a line to each room that is dedicated to the generator. all It would require is one orange outlet in each room and that can be good enough for a floor lamp and any other small draw electrical items. that would be way cheaper than a transfer.

 

[Highbeam]

Whoa don't do that. You need to do something different here.

You can buy an interlock kit for your current panel that is UL listed, legal, NEC compliant, etc. to allow legal and safe backfeeding of your panel so that you can manage your power by turning off your regular breakers as needed so that you don't overload the genset when your electric water heater kicks on. My 200 amp house panel is equipped with the interlock kit and was inspected and approved as a generator panel.

So what I had to do was run a "generator" circuit which is a 30 amp 220 circuit to a male twistlok plug on the outside of my house. When the power goes out you turn off the main breaker, slide the fancy metal interlok piece over, this allows you to turn on the generator breaker, you then turn off the breakers for all of the automatic-on devices such as the water heater and the hot tub, and then you fire up the generator and plug it in to the outside outlet. You are now legally backfeeding your panel. You won't know when the power comes back on unless you see your neighbor's lights. I usually start the genset, plug it into the house and let it warm up while I go inside and throw all the breakers.

It IS legal to backfeed your panel so long as you have properly equipped your panel with the legal interlok. This is the cheapest and most versatile way to provide backup power to your entire home. It is illegal to backfeed your panel without such a safety device.

I use one of the cheap champion gensets that is 3500 watts and runs very quietly but most importantly it has a 220 outlet so that I can feed both phases of the residential panel. It was sold at the auto parts store and has an excellent reputation with the RV crowd for clean power and can run a rooftop A/C unit. I bought it for like 250$ and it has been excellent.

If you want to use your 110 gensets then I would suggest extension cords. Backfeeding half of your panel with a 110 genset can lead to giving some 220 volt appliances only 110 volts.

The interlock kits usually sell for about 150$ and can be installed by the homeowner super fast and easy.

 

[Highbeam]

Oh and you won't lose any watts in your house. You are more likely to run into a genset that claims to make 800 watts but isn't up to it.

When your fridge kicks on the voltage will drop on an undersized genset and the low voltage condition is bad bad bad. The fridge wont' sound right so be sure to check for this the first time around. I used a kill-a-watt during my extension cord days to be sure of proper volts and hertz.

I wouldn't put anything but a single refer on a that 1200 watt genset you bought. To manage your power needs you can run the refer and then unplug it while you run another appliance. It doesn't need to be powered up 24/7 to keep your ice cream frozen.

 

[thewoodlands]

well, I got some stuffs when I was out a shopping with the wife on friday. Made it to menards and picked up two small generators. they are rated at 1200w, so not huge, but big enough to run some power tools, or in case of a blackout i figure I should be able to run the fridge, freezer, and furnace blower along with a few lights. I've got electric water heat, so that's a no go.

Also picked up a backup saw, we'll see if it was a waste of $99. it's a Blue Max with 45cc and a 20" bar. I'll let you know what I think about it, but I'm doubting I'll be tossing the Stihl to the side, even after putting a proper chain on it. Funny thing about this saw is that it's called a "Super Steel."....hmmmm, wonder if that's a coincidence that there happen to be certain Stihl saws with the word super in the model name.....

Also made it over to the farm store and bought a pair of Husky chaps (not on sale) as well as a hard hat. I haven't used a hard hat before, but I don't know why because they are only about $5. thats cheap safety right there. The chaps look real nice and seem to be well made, but i just don't feel right about all this blue, shouldn't real chainsaw stuff be orange? lol.

so, anybody keeping track, I have the following PPE, feel free to comment on my shortcuts cause i'm open to suggestions.

Head to toe:

hard hat
Ear protection
Safety glasses
Chaps
steel toed boots

You'll notice that I don't have face protection, nor do I have any real upper body protection or hand protection. The boots also are just the toe protection and not really much for foot safety.

I'm looking for a pair of gloves, nobody carries any in store around here that are actual safety gloves, and I'd really like to try them on.

We have a 4500 watt generator with a generator box and only have the following hooked up to the generator box. Pump to the well, Microwave, bathroom lights, fan to the propane fireplace, fan to the wood stove, garage lights and furnace and two outlets on the kitchen island. Seems to handle but you would not want to have everything going at once.

Zap

 

[Danno77]

BTW, you are right, i shouldn't lose watts, I should lose volts over a distance, but most appliances and devices are rated for 110-120v....

what was just described as a setup was what i had in mind originally, but everybody freaked out about me feeding the panel even if I shut off everything I won't be using.

It really shouldn't be a big deal to run seperate lines for three or four rooms in my house. it really ends up being more like this


Gen1 -->freezer outlet--> Bedroom outlet-->living room outlet
Gen2-->family room outlet-->kitchen/fridge outlet-->bathroom outlet

each run would have three sets of outlets on them, Gen1 would be total length of 25ft, Gen2 would be just under that.

cost of 50ft of 12-2 cable and 6 outlets is very minimal. would be a clean install, and doesn't even connect to the houses electrical. It might be a PITA for the couple of minutes that it would take to plug a lamp into each outlet, as well as move the fridge and freezer plug to the backup outlets. One nice feature of this setup is that I'd know when the power came back on.

Dad suggested that I get two timers in case I ever wanted to run the fridge and freezer on the same genny, that's how I originally was gonna do it. You can have one run for 10 min, then the other can, I think they could overlap, just as long as they both don't start-up at the same time.

I hooked a 500-1000-1500w electric heater and my 4-40w shop lights up to one last night and it ran just fine with the heater on the low setting. I could turn it to the mid setting and it still worked, but I never tried to trip it with the 1500watts.

 

[Gooserider]

<snip>Now, about those gloves. I need to look into them. what about upper body protection. i don't read about that too much from people here, but there was that post recently about a police officer or firefighter (can't remember which) who took it to the chest and even though that was probably a freak thing, and he was likely cutting over his head.... I'm not gonna say i've never done that, but i wondered about the availability/fit/cost/function of a sawing jacket or something.

You can get vests that do upper body protection, and they are even required by OSHA if you are swinging a saw for a living, but they seem to be the least purchased protective gear - perhaps because they seem least needed or something like that... I know I wear chainsaw boots, chaps, helmet and gloves any time I start the saw, but have never really considered getting a vest...

Gooserider

 

[brokeburner]

menards has gens for 80 bucks thats a deal what brand are they are they 2 cycle

 

[kabbott]

Here is a link to one brand of lock out kit like Highbeam is talking about...

http://www.interlockkit.com/

Do it right... don't chance it, not worth someones life. These are great way to catch everything, just turn off the loads your genset won't handle.

 

[velvetfoot]

I bought the Square D model since I have a Square D breaker panel and it's also a little cheaper.
It's easy to install IIIFFF you can free up the top two right breaker positions
Here is a thread I started with some pics: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/19946/

 

[Danno77]

so basically, an interlock kit just is a piece of metal that you slide up over the main breaker that does not allow you to have the gen breaker on at the same time? is there any reason one could not make their own out of lightweight guage steel? I have a big sheet of 22guage stainless sitting out back. I suppose I could even print off a warning sticker.

It could even have a long "leg" that hangs down between all the other breakers with little red arrows pointing to breakers that i would want to manually switch off so i wasn't drawing a big load.

I'd have to move some breakers around to throw a gen breaker in a top spot, but that's doable.

 

[Gooserider]

so basically, an interlock kit just is a piece of metal that you slide up over the main breaker that does not allow you to have the gen breaker on at the same time? is there any reason one could not make their own out of lightweight guage steel? I have a big sheet of 22guage stainless sitting out back. I suppose I could even print off a warning sticker.

It could even have a long "leg" that hangs down between all the other breakers with little red arrows pointing to breakers that i would want to manually switch off so i wasn't drawing a big load.

I'd have to move some breakers around to throw a gen breaker in a top spot, but that's doable.

In theory, you probably could make your own kit, but it wouldn't have the UL approval / listing, etc., so it is questionable as to how legal that would be... How much one should care about getting the UL approval and so forth could also be debated, as long as nothing went wrong. But if you did ever have a fire or somebody got fried, it would probably put you in a very uncomfortable position...

Gooserider

 

[kabbott]

so basically, an interlock kit just is a piece of metal that you slide up over the main breaker that does not allow you to have the gen breaker on at the same time? is there any reason one could not make their own out of lightweight guage steel? I have a big sheet of 22guage stainless sitting out back. I suppose I could even print off a warning sticker.

It could even have a long "leg" that hangs down between all the other breakers with little red arrows pointing to breakers that i would want to manually switch off so i wasn't drawing a big load.

I'd have to move some breakers around to throw a gen breaker in a top spot, but that's doable.

Basically yes, but it would not pass inspection or may cause problems if you were to sell the place. I am all for DIY but I am not sure it is
worth it in this case. As mentioned squareD and I believe cutler hammer now make there own interlocks that may be cheaper, the link i gave has
several different brands listed although they may be a bit more expensive. Worst case it cost you 150 bucks....

 

[Highbeam]

The interlock kit is cheap and often considered hokey by those who didn't know any better and bought some other much more expensive means of using a genset to power their home. It is so simple that it is genius I think. That UL sticker is what you are paying for, and the inspection makes the install legal. Legal installs mean you can't get sued or found liable if something bad happens. Being legal is worth 150$.

You can leave all of your breakers turned on except the auto devices like a well pump, water heater, etc. and manage your power manually. I have checked out these installs where the owner marks the breakers to be turned off with red dots to keep it simple for a spouse to do in the dark.

It is very nice to be able to step into the bathroom and flip the light on during a power outage.

 

[Tony H]

Using a small generator the interlock is probably the way to go. It is a pita to use extension cords for the lights and such but it certainly can and is done by many folks just the fridge freezer a few outlets for lights and a tv or radio to keep going. Don't be too worried about losing watts , amps,voltage from the wire in your house. Most wire runs in an average house are short and have pretty low resistance it's crazy to think you will consume 100's of watts for the wiring and by the way running extension cords to everything will probably use a little more power but also will be insignificant as far as load on the generator.
Just make sure your high draw stuff that's not needed is disconnected like door openers , well , dryer ect.

 

[moosetrek]

Sorry - posted in the link not this one by accident...

If you’re going to the trouble of installing an interlock and switch, you might want to go with at least a 50-amp receptacle and 6-ga. If the future, you might want to run a larger generator and $ adds up every time you put in a new receptacle, etc. That was the first thing installed in our “new” home (after the woodstove of course). Added a plug in for the generator. There is no interlock, so I’ll have to label it “aux power outlet” when we sell so no future owner does anything dumb. We have two trips - a main at the house and a second on the pole in the driveway. As has been mentioned, you can’t just feed one leg of the panel @110V; you might do bad things to some expensive appliances like the well pump/range/furnace. Also, check the quality of the $80 generators - I’m not sure you want to run computers or sensitive electronics off them. Finally, the frigge and freezer don’t need much juice - if the power goes out open the freezer once to move stuff you need to the fridge/freezer and then leave it closed; if full it’s safe for a long time before it’ll warm up too much. Use the fridge/freezer (or outdoors in winter) to keep stuff cool and run that off the gen. Good luck!

 

[velvetfoot]

I've said this before somewhere else, but I measured the current draw from my 450' deep well pump and it was 37 amps at startup and 11.7 amps constant. The 5kW generator I have didn't cut the mustard and I used a 7.5kW unit that worked. Water really helps in a power outage. I feel that conserving the genny and fuel is a good idea, so we ran the unit for about an hour or so a say in the last 3 day outage. It was enough to get the house warmed up more than the small flush insert was able without a fan, take showers (the water really warms up quick in the hot water tank that is a zone off the hot water boiler), flush the toilets, fill the tubs with water, log onto the web, etc, to feel a little more human. The last outage was fairly localized, so you didn't have to go far for gas.