I heard from a little bird that Monesson may not warranty anything Vermont Castings purchased up till this past season. Any one here if this accurate?
No Vermont Castings Warranties?
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Welcome to the wonderful world of insolventcy, a legalized way to screw the other guy. I would not be surprised in the least bit. Watch the price on parts for the older units skyrocket as well, the new owners are doing you a favor right? :roll: I work in finance and I see this on the consumer side all the time.
Its bad right now because were just going on the word of the distributors. Problem is, they dont know all of whats going on either. I know eventually it will work its self out, but in the mean time it would be nice to have an answer for people on certain questions that are literally up in the air.
Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the company was sold. If it was not part of the agreement (probably not but could be) then it is not gonna happen. I think it will probably be a case by case basis and that is why they will hike the parts up, giving the end user a 25% discount and in reality making full list. Just my opinion but have seen it over and over in other industries. Its a way to turn a warantee into profit because the new owners are under no obligation.
The minute that bankruptcy was filed every existing stove owner with a warranty in their hand became an unsecured creditor of CFM. A form was available to file unsecured claims and after that it's all over baby.
There is some incentive though for Monessen to honor current claims to protect the brand name.
There is some incentive though for Monessen to honor current claims to protect the brand name.
BrotherBart, I see you have played the game! You are 100% right as always. I am not so sure about the incentive though. We can agree to disagree on that point. On a ch 11 I do not know the order of claims. Trustee and attorney at the top then wages up to some figure, creditors, and there is usually nothing left to supply a dividend (sounds good right) to the unsecured creditors (consumers!) I still think that if there was nothing requiring them to honor the warrantee (usually not so there is a higher price paid for the company to benefit secured creditors) then it will play out in some fashion that I posted earlier. In the end the consumer usually gets the worst in ch11 so that the company can continue and workers maintain thier postions (with a pay cut!) I hope no one is stuck in that situation. Maybe they will get a consions and work with the consumer. I have not had any dealing with them but have not heard any rave reviews...new owners could change that.
No, for the new owners to make money, thats why they bought the company. And they will try to put a spin on it like I said before in an earlier post.
Yea but when a customer hears they have to pay for parts for there 2 year old VC grill that has a lifetime warranty on alot of the parts, we're going to see not so many happy campers.
I do not disagree with you. In my opinion they should be honored but I don't run the show :lol: The new owners will leave you at the front lines to face the beast and will have some "offical" response for you to give to the customer. I could be wrong and at this point nothing has happened so it could be a moot point, but I think there is a higher probablity that I am right. Has the sale been confirmed yet? If it has you will have your answer shortly.
burntime said:
Ya left off the one at the very top. Taxes. Those come off first and the rest gets divied up.
My first trip as a vendor to bankruptcy court the judge opened by listing taxes owed and assets remaining. I looked over at my competitor sitting next to me and said "I'll buy lunch, you get the tip.". We got up and left.
Actually you are right, forgot about uncle sam, he makes the rules thru congress and he superceeds all others. The old saying is true....death and taxes
Stoveguy11, the worst part is the people you have have to be the pole bearer of warrantee issues. The company should be the ones who do the dirtywork. Now watch the parts skyrocket like I said and if someone is loud enough they will "discount" the parts. I bought a hampton and the place was actually going out of business but did not make the public aware! I got a good deal, half an install, and a company(regency/hampton) that basically tried to walk away from the whole thing even though their website directed me to the dealer. There are very few GOOD business out there that will do the RIGHT thing nowadays. Best you can do is jump in when you feel comfortable and buy quality so that you do not need the service. Are you still gonna carry the line stoveguy11? Unless you can make a better mark to protect yourself I would drop em.
Same thing I had with the two Jotuls. Delivering them the clowns dropped the F3 and broke it. Dealer stalled on resolution till the bank shut him down. Jotul has never acknowleged the emails and phone calls from back then just seeking advice on where to buy parts to fix it myself since I never considered it a warranty issue. The other dealer here wouldn't even order the part because I didn't buy the damned stove from him.
Finally a dealer member here on hearth.com ordered the part for me and had it drop shipped or I would have a cast iron anchor and no boat.
I did get a little revenge though. I contacted his bank and they sold me his inventory of Jotul cast iron gas stoves and accessories for squat and I made a bunch of money off of them while saving the people that bought them a bunch too. All the time hoping that the people that bought them had originally planned to buy a stove from the fool that wouldn't sell me the part. :coolgrin:
Finally a dealer member here on hearth.com ordered the part for me and had it drop shipped or I would have a cast iron anchor and no boat.
I did get a little revenge though. I contacted his bank and they sold me his inventory of Jotul cast iron gas stoves and accessories for squat and I made a bunch of money off of them while saving the people that bought them a bunch too. All the time hoping that the people that bought them had originally planned to buy a stove from the fool that wouldn't sell me the part. :coolgrin:
burntime said:
Not my choice, but we wil continue to carry them. We must be one of the first VC dealers. I agree with the mark up on parts cost. We saw it right before they filed chapter 11. Their parts rose 50% then.
I'm pretty sure that if a company is bought, even when in bankruptcy, then the new owner still has to honor all the old company's commitments, including warranties.
Which is of course why the new owner here bought up VC's assets (trademarks, manufacturing, inventory, etc.), rather than the whole company, which will now expire deep in debt.
Which is of course why the new owner here bought up VC's assets (trademarks, manufacturing, inventory, etc.), rather than the whole company, which will now expire deep in debt.
Bankruptcy has an automatic stay, it bars anyone from collection. Warantees are liabilities, this is collection. Usually they wash the warantees off (unsecured creditors) because the secured guys get the money. Thats the point of being secured creditor. Its not about honor, warentee, doing the right thing, or feeling good. Its about doing the best thing for its creditors and hopefully the company that employs people. If the new owner takes on the liability (warentee) then there usually is a discount in the cost and less to the secured creditors...judges usually will not confirm that kind of plan. Does that make sense? It is not about fair, it is about solvency.
But if you paid for that stove entirely with a VISA logo credit card, you have a darn good case to be made that the "extended" warranty provided by VISA on most purchases applies. :cheese: The VISA warranty starts when the manufacturer's warranty ends. In this case VC's warranty ended on a buncha stoves.
BrotherBart, in my case the 2nd half of the charge was within 30 days so I just stopped the payment only to find out that the work was done half arsed a while later when I ok'd the release of payment. I wonder if Visa has a disclaimer??? Very good point!
The new company is really shooting themselves in the foot if they wont honor warranties from the old owners.H&T;which bought Harman honors them,but maybe bankruptcies changes all that.
There is obviously a difference between honoring warranties and HAVING to do so. Let's face it....this company (CFM) went south twice in the last 3 years.....not much left to salvage.
Most asset sales are just that - assets. The customers have no legal recourse. As dealers we always made it clear that products were covered by MANUFACTURER warranties, not dealer warranties. Of course, we would always do everything in our power to make that connection happen, and often go beyond that and fork $$ out of our own pockets.
The new company is a holding and investment company....we're not talking some startup people who love stoves! They have put out some big $$ and they want a return. If that return comes quicker by not spending as much on warranties, then that is what the bean counters will do.
Welcome to the jungle!
Most asset sales are just that - assets. The customers have no legal recourse. As dealers we always made it clear that products were covered by MANUFACTURER warranties, not dealer warranties. Of course, we would always do everything in our power to make that connection happen, and often go beyond that and fork $$ out of our own pockets.
The new company is a holding and investment company....we're not talking some startup people who love stoves! They have put out some big $$ and they want a return. If that return comes quicker by not spending as much on warranties, then that is what the bean counters will do.
Welcome to the jungle!
BTW, I don't even think we know what the Harman deal was 100%...we'll have to have BB read the docs......
I know the the new company did not take on all of the liabilities Dane had built up, but that may be just Real Estate. There are all sorts of complications in these deals, and that may be part of the reason that Dane is staying on a couple years (at least)....his compensation is surely tied to sales and may also be tied to lack of problems, etc. Who knows?
When the wolves are at the door, they usually can talk any deal they want.....lots of leverage.
Some members complained because I told folks to be cautious about buying Harmans and VC when the respective companies were in limbo......maybe some can now see why! When you have to guess as to whether a warranty or parts will be available, it lowers the value....
I know the the new company did not take on all of the liabilities Dane had built up, but that may be just Real Estate. There are all sorts of complications in these deals, and that may be part of the reason that Dane is staying on a couple years (at least)....his compensation is surely tied to sales and may also be tied to lack of problems, etc. Who knows?
When the wolves are at the door, they usually can talk any deal they want.....lots of leverage.
Some members complained because I told folks to be cautious about buying Harmans and VC when the respective companies were in limbo......maybe some can now see why! When you have to guess as to whether a warranty or parts will be available, it lowers the value....
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