Novice seeks heating suggestions

[dralcohen]

I am planning to install a pellet stove. I have next to zero experience with them and I'm hoping for a general introduction and suggestions on how to choose and place the stove.

Information about the house:
+Location: Central Massachusetts
+Style: Cape, 2 floors
+Age: Built 1963
+Floor plan: See attached figure (not to scale, but in the ballpark)
+Size: 2,369 sq ft (including addition – MBR in the floor plan)
+Ceiling height: 7' 2â€
+Current heat: 1) Radiant electric ceiling heat in all rooms except the office 2) Daikin inverters (similar to http://www.daikin.com/global_ac/products/residential/multi_nx/outline.html) in the FR, DR, LR, MBR, office, BR1, and BR2.
+Ductwork: None
+Insulation: Fair (we're having a heating audit done in Oct. and we'll try to tighten it up.)

Our goal is to get as much heat for the first and second floors (not basement or grayed areas in the floor plan) as we can from pellets.

The radiant heat is expensive. Our monthly electric bill for Jan is approximately $450 (~110 kWh/day). We only heat the rooms we're in and keep the temperature low. In June it is approximately $100 (~25 kWh/day). The Daikin system will work well for all but the coldest days (< 5 deg F), so I only want to use it to even out the temperature, but I don't want to rely on it.

There is a Harman dealer nearby and we were planning on going with a Harman pellet stove.

We are planning on redoing our kitchen and surrounds and the more open floor plan shown in the figure reflects those changes, but we can make some alterations if they will be helpful. The two stove placements we were considering are marked in red. The one in the family room (FR) would be freestanding and (maybe?) can be angled towards the dining room (DR). The one in the living room (LR) would be a fireplace insert. We're open to other suggestions.

The Daikin systems have a fan mode, so they can be used to move air. We have a ceiling fan in the master bedroom (black X). We are considering putting ceiling fans in the family room and living room (gray X's).

In the remodel, there is a fair chance that the family room will get a cathedral ceiling (thus the ceiling fan). The current attic space above the family room (which would be turned into the cathedral ceiling) has a small door that opens into the office (marked with blue rectangles). (See question 4 below.)

Specific questions:
1) How well can we realistically hope to heat this house with a stove?
2) We want to do this right. Would 2 smaller stoves be more feasible, one in each location?
3) If one stove, what output would be appropriate? If two stoves, what output?
4) It is too crazy to put a duct or even small fan where the blue rectangle is, thus moving air from the family room directly to the second floor office? That would at least help heat the office. (I don't know how this would fly with the local code.)
5) We could also install a fan where the green rectangle is moving air towards the master bedroom. Would that be potentially useful?
6) What are good options for stove placement?

(Sorry for the long post. I figued more information was better.)

Thank you so much in advance.

 

[DexterDay]

Welcome to the Forum. That was a lot. But thats MUCH better than some one saying. "I own a house. It has rooms. We are Cold. What do I need?... Help!" So you have done your homework. Placement of a stove and "What Stove" to buy can be tricky. There is no one correct answer. Well there kinda is. Always go Bigger than what you need. You do not want little units going Full Tilt all the time. Better to have a Large unit, that is on a Mid-Range to Low setting.

1- Could do a pretty good job, if done correctly.

2- I would go with 2 stoves. Are your hallways as open as they appear?

3- Either 1 stove or 2 stoves, I would always go bigger. But in your case, if 1 Stove, the BIG BOYS come to mind. Like the P-68, Enviro Maxx-M, Enerzone Eurozone or any unit around 70,000 BTU's. For 2 units, 30,000 BTU units would prob be more than enough.

4- Please follow local codes. There are through the wall fans and ducts. But they have to be so far away from stove.

5- Any Fan is a big help. I use Entreeair fans in my doorways, to my Master and my daughters room. There are several different co. out there that makes these.

6- I have re-done your lay-out. I do not know what is outside of your house. So the locations I put down, are just based on what I can see. I like a direct shot into the next room. If you can angle the air, or help "Push" it into another room. You will be way ahead of the curve.

The 2 Black boxes, are w/ 2 stoves. I would do stoves with such a large area. The Yellow box, is for 1 stove. The more centrally located you can place it, and help push air in to adjacent rooms, the better and more efficiently you will heat your home. I would consider buying used stoves. (If you want to save money).

This is my opinion. I am not a Pro-installer. More people will chime in. Everyone may/may not have a different thought. Always follow the Manuf. Instructions and follow local codes. You will be fine.

Good Luck. Do you have any stoves in mind? They do require cleaning on a weekly/bi-weekly basis. All depends on your model.

 

[summit]

P68 right where dexterday put the yellow box. Do it all day long for ya!

 

[newf lover]

I would go with the 2 stove option. I think the master bedroom would be chilly with just 1 big stove. I have a P68 in a great room with a ranch style house that's just 1400 square feet. The bedroom that is not just a straight shot down the hallway is a little tougher to keep as warm as the other rooms. The more turns the air has to take to get where you want it to go, the more challenging it is to maintain a somewhat constant temperature. My second advice would be don't just concentrate on putting fans that are blowing warm air in the direction you want to go, rather put a box fan blowing the cold air out of the room you want to warm up. This has made around a 5 degree difference in temperature in the room I want to heat up. I too am not an expert by any means, this is just my own experience.

 

[DexterDay]

I would go with the 2 stove option. I think the master bedroom would be chilly with just 1 big stove. I have a P68 in a great room with a ranch style house that's just 1400 square feet. The bedroom that is not just a straight shot down the hallway is a little tougher to keep as warm as the other rooms. The more turns the air has to take to get where you want it to go, the more challenging it is to maintain a somewhat constant temperature. My second advice would be don't just concentrate on putting fans that are blowing warm air in the direction you want to go, rather put a box fan blowing the cold air out of the room you want to warm up. This has made around a 5 degree difference in temperature in the room I want to heat up. I too am not an expert by any means, this is just my own experience.

Agreed newf lover. Cold air finds Warm air easier then warm to cold. IMO

 

[dralcohen]

Thank you very much for the replies.

DexterDay: The hallways will be pretty much as in the floor plan (after the remodel).

I've been looking into Harman stoves. If we went with one stove it would probably be the P68. 2 stoves I'm more confused. If one is a fireplace insert, it would be the Accentra insert. Freestanding stoves would be the Accentra or P43. I'm open to suggestions. Would 2 stoves require burning more pellets than one larger stove (controlling for output as much as possible)?

Regarding moving air... I could potentially move cold air out of the office into the FR via the blue rectangles (if code allows). I'm uncertain how to do it for the MBR, and BR1 and 2. A fan in the office might move some air out of the 2 upstairs bedrooms. Where the green rectangle is I could blow the air from the MBR area into the LR, but, as that hallway is about 11 ft, I'm not sure how effective that would be. I could also put a small ceiling fan at the top of the stairs.
(I'm really starting to appreciate fans.)

In the floor plan I left out some built-ins. We were planning on putting a desk where the yellow rectangle is in the FR, thus my suggestion farther to the right. The yellow rectangle in the LR is a possibility. It would be nearish to a couch (outside the safe range, but I'm thinking of airflow) and a piano (would that damage the piano?). I was also thinking of cost. Putting an insert into the fireplace would probably be cheaper to install. But then again the inserts are more expensive... Would a freestanding stove in the corner of the LR be much more effective than a fireplace insert?

In the floor plan, the front of the house is down. The left side of the house is also visible from the road.

How vital is it to angle the stoves? Due to space considerations, stoves in the FR or DR would be better off square to the walls. A corner stove is possible in the LR.

 

[DexterDay]

Angle is not that important. Other than trying to push the air to where you want it. Burning 2 stoves on there lowest setting (Say about 2 lbs an hr) is 4 lbs an hr. If you run a P-68 Full Bore. I am sure it will eat more than 6 lbs an hr. My Quad at 47,500 BTU's I believe is rated at 5.5 lbs an hr Max.

So having 2 stoves will make the heat in the house more even. It will also move the air in your house better. More natural cnvection, even without the use of a fan.

As far as install prices on an inset. It can be MUCH higher than a Stardard Freestanding. You can Direct vent a freestanding (Almost all models), so a Stove adapter, 3'-4' section of Pipe, a Thimble, and a Termination Cap. Under $250 (If you install yourself. The Liner that will be needed for an insert, plus install could be over $1,000. Check with your local stove shop about the average install for inserts vs freestandings.

 

[Don2222]

Angle is not that important. Other than trying to push the air to where you want it. Burning 2 stoves on there lowest setting (Say about 2 lbs an hr) is 4 lbs an hr. If you run a P-68 Full Bore. I am sure it will eat more than 6 lbs an hr. My Quad at 47,500 BTU's I believe is rated at 5.5 lbs an hr Max.

So having 2 stoves will make the heat in the house more even. It will also move the air in your house better. More natural cnvection, even without the use of a fan.

As far as install prices on an inset. It can be MUCH higher than a Stardard Freestanding. You can Direct vent a freestanding (Almost all models), so a Stove adapter, 3'-4' section of Pipe, a Thimble, and a Termination Cap. Under $250 (If you install yourself. The Liner that will be needed for an insert, plus install could be over $1,000. Check with your local stove shop about the average install for inserts vs freestandings.

X2 Good sugestion Dexter
2 stoves on low would provide much more even heat and burn Less pellets!

 

[relxn88]

My floor plan is similiar(2400sqft) to yours and I'm all electric. Proper fan usage(1 on doorway + 1 on floor for cold air return) solves my cold spot problems. The upstairs doors (I have an open stairway) are left open during the day, but I use the electric heat(with doors closed) at night. I run a 40,000 btu insert, with the thermostat in the kitchen. I would have gone bigger but, I couldn't fit anything larger in the fireplace. I would have put a freestanding but, the exhaust outlet had to be more than 4ft. from a window and I'm all windows. So, I went with the insert. I use about 3-4 tons and the insert room is 73 and the rest of the first floor stays 71. The upstairs is 65 to 68. My 2 cent opinion is don't buy 2 stoves until you find out how one works.