Gasifier
Minister of Fire
Where in the sticky, "Simplest Pressurized Storage System Design" is a flat plate heat exchanger? Am I going to need one in a pressurized system with my Wood Gun, a 400 gallon pressurized storage tank and my oil boiler?
Planning dedicated boiler building
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Gasifier said:
That depends on your piping. If you have a primary loop with the boiler and the zones piped secondary, then you will not have the two boilers in series (if you put the HX in the primary loop). Not knowing how you are configured now makes it tough to figure out what your options are. If you put up a piping diagram, Heaterman, myself, and others can help you decipher your planned integration.
The two systems can be piped in series or in parallel, whether pressurized or not. Are you using pressurized storage? JP was considering a GARN, which is not pressurized. I always suggest using a HX between a pressurized and non-pressurized system.
Is your wood boiler a pressurized unit? If so, you can.
Not sure I understand what you are describing. But, if you have a supply manifold branching off to your zones, and a return manifold with the zone piping going to it, the boiler and circ pump will be between those manifolds. If you can induce flow through your zones without pushing water through the oil burner HX, then you will not heat the oil burner with the wood burner. Depending on your piping, and pump selection, as well as perhaps using some properly located check valves, you may be able to Tee into the S&R manifolds and use the wood boiler circ to push water through the manifolds and back to the wood boiler without inducing flow through the oil burner. This can be done without a HX, but will require a big pump, depending on pipe diameter, length of run to the wood unit, total head losses, etc.
And I am not sure I am understanding your question and description. Perhaps a seperate thread with some pictures and a piping diagram of what you plan to do is in order. Also, search the boiler room for piping diagrams to see what some others have done. There are many to look at.
JP11 said:
Correct. The Garn is a closed unpressurized system. There is only one 1" vent tube on the GARN.
Get a Hobbs meter.
Gasifier
Minister of Fire
Ooookay?, I think I am going to be able to stay pressurized. ? :sick: Well, maybe.? My current boiler is a pressurized system. It feeds six zones that all work with one small circulation pump for each zone. There is a "manifold" just off of the oil boiler that is fed by the main hot water pipe from the boiler, on the other side of the manifold are six different circulation pumps all run off of an electrical panel that feeds the wires from the thermostats from the house to the circulation pumps. I am using an E100 Wood Gun and I found, bought and will be using a pressurized storage tank. Approximately 375-400 gallons. When I look at it it seems like I could keep it very simple and do what is done in the sticky Simplest Pressurized Storage System Design. I think I can do it that way. I think reading into to many things can make it much more complicated than need be. Then I start to feel like :sick: You are right. I need to take a picture of my boiler and the piping that it feeds. I will post one soon. :ahhh:
[quote author="Jim K in PA" date="1305845484
Get a Hobbs meter.[/quote]
Now you are speaking my language. Been using em in airplanes for a couple decades. but ones i've seen are DC powered. Would a plumbing supply place have one that I can tie into AC from furnace? I want good data to work with.
Anyway.. Here's a few quick shots of what i've got in the basement now. I figure if a picture is worth a thousand words... this ought to be worth a million, cause I may not be using the right terms.
https://picasaweb.google.com/Jpiper11/Boiler?authkey=Gv1sRgCL3rus_zzfDWyAE#
JP
Get a Hobbs meter.[/quote]
Now you are speaking my language. Been using em in airplanes for a couple decades. but ones i've seen are DC powered. Would a plumbing supply place have one that I can tie into AC from furnace? I want good data to work with.
Anyway.. Here's a few quick shots of what i've got in the basement now. I figure if a picture is worth a thousand words... this ought to be worth a million, cause I may not be using the right terms.
https://picasaweb.google.com/Jpiper11/Boiler?authkey=Gv1sRgCL3rus_zzfDWyAE#
JP
I'll try to post a pic. the link above has all of them full size.
There are three Taco boxes. Two are identical zone control boxes. Two of my circulators have zone valves on them. One feeds garage/basement zones. Another feeds House/Bedroom zone. The only other zone of heat is my wife's studio. The "zone relay" box which is different from the two other zone control boxes... one of the lights comes on for the oddball heating zone. the other light.. on bottom, zone 4 light is what comes on when my DHW tank calls for heat.
not sure if this helps or not.
There are three Taco boxes. Two are identical zone control boxes. Two of my circulators have zone valves on them. One feeds garage/basement zones. Another feeds House/Bedroom zone. The only other zone of heat is my wife's studio. The "zone relay" box which is different from the two other zone control boxes... one of the lights comes on for the oddball heating zone. the other light.. on bottom, zone 4 light is what comes on when my DHW tank calls for heat.
not sure if this helps or not.
Attachments
Jason - you have a manifold system with 3 circs for the distribution to the floor zones, and a 4th circ for the DHW loop. When any of the T-stats call for heat the circ starts when the end switch closes on HM zone valve. pretty standard stuff, and it looks like a decent install with isolation valves and reasonable piping layout. I did not pick out how the water is tempered for the slabs, but that is not critical at this point in the discussion.
Check eBay for the DC powered Hobbs hour meter. They are pretty cheap there.
GARN integration can be done a number of ways with varying cost and complexity. You can install a FP HX in the supply manifold, or in the return manifold for that matter. This will result in heating of your existing Buderus oil burner, but is the least distruptive to the existing system, and the least costly. If you go this route, I would install a power damper on the exhaust flue to cut down on convective draft losses.
If the oil burner water temp is set low, you may want to temper the GARN supply water temps before it gets to the FP HX. You can do this out at the GARN, and send the water to the house only at the temp it needs. Then for the Garage, you can heat it with an emmitter sized to use whatever minimum temp your house needs and supply it with the same tempered water.
If Heaterman has time, he will chime in with some additional suggestions if I left anything out. There are a number of GARN gurus here on Hearth. There are also a number of other system experts that can offer input on the pluses and minuses of other systems.
Check eBay for the DC powered Hobbs hour meter. They are pretty cheap there.
GARN integration can be done a number of ways with varying cost and complexity. You can install a FP HX in the supply manifold, or in the return manifold for that matter. This will result in heating of your existing Buderus oil burner, but is the least distruptive to the existing system, and the least costly. If you go this route, I would install a power damper on the exhaust flue to cut down on convective draft losses.
If the oil burner water temp is set low, you may want to temper the GARN supply water temps before it gets to the FP HX. You can do this out at the GARN, and send the water to the house only at the temp it needs. Then for the Garage, you can heat it with an emmitter sized to use whatever minimum temp your house needs and supply it with the same tempered water.
If Heaterman has time, he will chime in with some additional suggestions if I left anything out. There are a number of GARN gurus here on Hearth. There are also a number of other system experts that can offer input on the pluses and minuses of other systems.
DC hobbs? I was planning to put it into the same wires as the (delay opening of nozzle, not sure what it is called... but I put it in. It holds oil flow just before burner nozzle for a few seconds to build pump pressure. Burner originally was equipped with one.. but I had to reconfigure due to webster biodiesel pump not having the same "clean cut" sytem) isn't that AC power in the burner?
I was looking to log burner time, as that with some SWAGs due to HHO vs BIO btus could give me an idea of BTU requirements of my home.
JP
I was looking to log burner time, as that with some SWAGs due to HHO vs BIO btus could give me an idea of BTU requirements of my home.
JP
You can buy hobbs hour meters in A.C. voltage if needed we use 110,208 and 480 volt meters at work.
It appears that my radiant is tempered by the black knob in each image. Just below the black knob (which has a temp range from 80 to 180 on the face of it) is where a line from the load return taps in.
The picture may show it better than what i'm saying.
There is a 4th circulator just like these that is behind the boiler which is DHW circulator.
JP
The picture may show it better than what i'm saying.
There is a 4th circulator just like these that is behind the boiler which is DHW circulator.
JP
Attachments
Jason - yes, I meant AC Hobbs. Connect it to the 110V power terminals at the oil burner so that when the relay starts the burner, the meter is powered. That will give you burner run time. I see them for $25-$40 on eBay.
I see the mixing valves in the picture. The DHW may not have a mixing valve before it, but may have one at the output to temper the water going to the rest of the house.
I see the mixing valves in the picture. The DHW may not have a mixing valve before it, but may have one at the output to temper the water going to the rest of the house.
Gotcha.
It's been an education reading thru all this stuff. Now I just have to make the money to do it all!
I have a good idea of what I want to build. After talking with the builder about what I need, and what it will cost. I think that before the burner barn on the list is a pole barn out back. It will let me move my biodiesel production out of it's temporary box trailer (i really like the setup, but the wife is getting sick of people asking if I'm a contractor.. time to hide everything under one roof)
Then maybe the boiler barn won't be so big. I have a lot of little stuff that I just want to be able to use without moving anything else! Now if I want to use my zero turn, or my golf cart (I run my dog with a golf cart near every day) I need to move the tractor or a car out of the way first. That's a year-round hassle at the moment.
JP
It's been an education reading thru all this stuff. Now I just have to make the money to do it all!
I have a good idea of what I want to build. After talking with the builder about what I need, and what it will cost. I think that before the burner barn on the list is a pole barn out back. It will let me move my biodiesel production out of it's temporary box trailer (i really like the setup, but the wife is getting sick of people asking if I'm a contractor.. time to hide everything under one roof)Then maybe the boiler barn won't be so big. I have a lot of little stuff that I just want to be able to use without moving anything else! Now if I want to use my zero turn, or my golf cart (I run my dog with a golf cart near every day) I need to move the tractor or a car out of the way first. That's a year-round hassle at the moment.
JP
JP11 - regarding your hour meter problem - why not buy a simple 115vac/12vdc power supply like the wallworts they sell at Radio Shack and cut off the 1/8" jack and wire it to a standard Hobbs meter? A bit cobby but it should work. You might even have a spare lying around from some old cordless phone or something.
Hourmeter all installed. I got a AC powered one off ebay for about 35 bucks.
Looks like my burner is running 1 to 1.5 hours per day for my DHW and a bit of heating at night (i'm guessing) in my basement.
I'm running a .85 nozzle at 135 psi.. so gotta be about 1 to 1.1 gallons per hour. Call it round about 150 to 175k btus per day right now.
Be interesting to see what winter brings. I'm gonna log the hours per week or so. It's only been on there a couple days.
JP
Looks like my burner is running 1 to 1.5 hours per day for my DHW and a bit of heating at night (i'm guessing) in my basement.
I'm running a .85 nozzle at 135 psi.. so gotta be about 1 to 1.1 gallons per hour. Call it round about 150 to 175k btus per day right now.
Be interesting to see what winter brings. I'm gonna log the hours per week or so. It's only been on there a couple days.
JP
Getting excited for winter. Heat running a bit now. Burner hours are adding up now. The idea of the "Garn Barn" is sounding better all the time.
Do they ONLY vent horizontal? or can you put them on a typical chimney. If I went out the back of the barn it's no big deal, and winds for the most part would keep smoke and vapor away from house.
JP
Do they ONLY vent horizontal? or can you put them on a typical chimney. If I went out the back of the barn it's no big deal, and winds for the most part would keep smoke and vapor away from house.
JP
It's been awhile, great to see you are back and still progressing. Garns can vent either horizontal or vertical. Mine is horizontal. Generally within 10 minutes of starting a fire, there is no longer more than just a trace of smoke....so if you orient the stack such that the prevailing wind will send your exhaust in the right direction, you likely will never smell it. I burn in the summer for DHW and have rarely smelled smoke with the windows open....and I'm nestled in the woods and quiet shielded from the wind. One user here has the vertical, Harry, and I know he has been a bit concerned about sparks exiting his chimney. I believe when it is dark and he watches, he can see the occasional spark exit the stack. With the forced air, that is likely to happen somewhat....I know I see a bit from my horizontal stack. Dectra makes it very clear about having a non-combustible area around the stack exit. Now, mine is covered with weeds....green and wet....but weeds. I blow the stack throuh a 90 down into the garbage can as they suggest...with water in it...so I'd think most sparks arrest in there. We aren't talking about a sparkler....but there are some that make it out. If it vents up to the roof and that worries you more, something to consider...
As for Garn simplicity, my wife is the primary fire master in our Garn....just seems to work out that way. It really is easy to do and quite quick. The biggest key is dry wood, for both burn efficiency and fire starting ease (and everything else....that really is the primary mantra with a gasser). As for controls, I have my Garn setup to supply heat on demand, and if the Garn temp is below 1xx, then my oil boiler will turn on. Now, 1xx is debatable, as I haven't finished hooking that up yet....but right around 125/130. This means actually cooler water...which for me only becomes a problem with DHW, as I have all radiant as well, so low temps are still very useful.
As for Garn simplicity, my wife is the primary fire master in our Garn....just seems to work out that way. It really is easy to do and quite quick. The biggest key is dry wood, for both burn efficiency and fire starting ease (and everything else....that really is the primary mantra with a gasser). As for controls, I have my Garn setup to supply heat on demand, and if the Garn temp is below 1xx, then my oil boiler will turn on. Now, 1xx is debatable, as I haven't finished hooking that up yet....but right around 125/130. This means actually cooler water...which for me only becomes a problem with DHW, as I have all radiant as well, so low temps are still very useful.
I guess the big unknowns for me are now.. total heat load on cold days (will find out soon enough this winter) and sizing appropriately the heat exchangers to get the open system garn heat into the closed loop of the home.
I'm not sure what to do about heat in the garn barn.. It's not going to be critical at all. Tractor and that kind of storage. I'll probably not even insulate anything other than the garn itself initially just for cost savings. I do like large doors.. so figure 10 foot walls, with a 12x12 pitch to match the current house. Looking at a garage depth near 30... so that means a peak of the chimney around about 28 to 30 feet. home is close to 40 feet tall and will be just in front of the barn by 60 or so feet. Winds would get to the barn first.. but that means chimney would be even with the top of the wall on house. I could always pump up the chimney a bit higher on the barn.
In my mind.. I was thinking cement wall on the end of the garn barn where the unit would be. (for insect issues) I plan wood storage all around it in that first bay. Essentially idea is a 3 bay garage. End bay (so call it what.. 12 by 30 deep) for the garn. Next two bays tractor and other stuff. Maybe common sense will set in and not have me build a 36x 30 garage. we'll see. You never think you have too much space.
JP
I'm not sure what to do about heat in the garn barn.. It's not going to be critical at all. Tractor and that kind of storage. I'll probably not even insulate anything other than the garn itself initially just for cost savings. I do like large doors.. so figure 10 foot walls, with a 12x12 pitch to match the current house. Looking at a garage depth near 30... so that means a peak of the chimney around about 28 to 30 feet. home is close to 40 feet tall and will be just in front of the barn by 60 or so feet. Winds would get to the barn first.. but that means chimney would be even with the top of the wall on house. I could always pump up the chimney a bit higher on the barn.
In my mind.. I was thinking cement wall on the end of the garn barn where the unit would be. (for insect issues) I plan wood storage all around it in that first bay. Essentially idea is a 3 bay garage. End bay (so call it what.. 12 by 30 deep) for the garn. Next two bays tractor and other stuff. Maybe common sense will set in and not have me build a 36x 30 garage. we'll see. You never think you have too much space.
JP
Oh NO!! New idea.
I could put the garn in exisiting garage.. which is underneath my wife's studio.
I could EITHER tap it into existing chimney (yes, oil boiler is on that, but obviously one or the other would run at a time. It's a 45 foot bock chimney with a heck of a draft) OR I could go up about 8 feet and out the side of the foundation. It wouldn't be very high off the ground (I see some guys with 55gal drum under output) but wind would carry what little smoke away from all of house.
Ceiling height not an issue. As the garage/shop is 10'4" Gets rid of issues of undergound piping and all of that. Just slap some heat exchangers and little pumps in. It could sit 10 to 15 feet from my oil setup.
What are the dimensions of the Garn? I couldn't find them on the site at all. Assuming it's shorter than 12 feet long or so.. still plenty of room for wood storage and fit my kubota in to boot. Would let me build cheaper storage for my "stuff" and do the Garn quicker. Puts the wood and the garn in the "basement" but that's a plus convincing the wife to fill the thing!
thoughts?
I've seen threads about it not being in a "garage" It's possible to wall it off easy enough with cement block. Back wall of garage is about 12 feet of concrete on 2 sides.
JP
I could put the garn in exisiting garage.. which is underneath my wife's studio.
I could EITHER tap it into existing chimney (yes, oil boiler is on that, but obviously one or the other would run at a time. It's a 45 foot bock chimney with a heck of a draft) OR I could go up about 8 feet and out the side of the foundation. It wouldn't be very high off the ground (I see some guys with 55gal drum under output) but wind would carry what little smoke away from all of house.
Ceiling height not an issue. As the garage/shop is 10'4" Gets rid of issues of undergound piping and all of that. Just slap some heat exchangers and little pumps in. It could sit 10 to 15 feet from my oil setup.
What are the dimensions of the Garn? I couldn't find them on the site at all. Assuming it's shorter than 12 feet long or so.. still plenty of room for wood storage and fit my kubota in to boot. Would let me build cheaper storage for my "stuff" and do the Garn quicker. Puts the wood and the garn in the "basement" but that's a plus convincing the wife to fill the thing!
thoughts?
I've seen threads about it not being in a "garage" It's possible to wall it off easy enough with cement block. Back wall of garage is about 12 feet of concrete on 2 sides.
JP
JP11 said:
Well, I am very happy to say that I think I have one up on you fellas with the nice Kubotas - my new logging buddy is on his way here as I type. His name is 'Gus' and he is a gelding Haflinger. He is already trained by his previous owner to haul logs on various equipment from wheeled a-frames to simple drags. This is going to be very fun - and about as Eco-sensitive as we can be. Maybe I can train him to load the furnace, too. Hmmm. I only hope that he doesn't get any fatter than his logging partner (me) this winter if the snow is too deep to get into the back country like last year.
Fall cheers to all from cold Prince George, B.C.!
My great uncle had a team that worked the woods. They seemed to know what to do. Once the log sled was fixed up, they went back to the log yard on their own. For a little kid, it was amazing. You are right - it is going to be fun.
JimboM said:
Interesting report from a great ... great uncle in Upper Canada writing to the folks back in Scotland:
"This place is labouring under great inconveniences at this time for want of ready markets.
Last season, crops were excellent, and had there been anything like fair price for grain, settlers would have done well, but so far from it, good wheat was selling as low as 2 s. per bushel in Lanark, 3 F in Perth and 3/6 in Brockville in the winter season: and there is no such thing as a sale for it now all except for whiskey, which is getting a rapid sale just for the "bees".
A "bee" is a number of men collected together for the purpose of logging, raising houses, barns, etc., sometimes consisting of 40 men and upwards; and they are now become so very numerous that we are often three days in the week from home.
We were at a logging-bee at my brother-in-law Robt. Stead's about eight days ago, where were 36 men and seven yoke of oxen, which logged up four acres of land and were done early in the afternoon."
http://globalgenealogy.com/LCGS/articles/A-DICKL3.HTM
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