Questionable home heating service work - who to believe and what do I do now?

[kingston73]

OK, I need some advice from any of you who have experience with home heating systems. I first posted another thread about replacing my hot water heater, but after further research and a second estimate I have another problem.
I paid $348 to have my oil-burning water heater cleaned and serviced, we've only lived in this house for about 2 years and the last time it was cleaned was about 10 years ago, so it was extremely dirty. I wasn't here when the 1st place came and cleaned it, but the guy told my wife our chimney was too hot and recommended we replace the oil-burning water with an electric and gave us a quote of about $1500 for the replacement, plus between $600 and $1000 for the electrician. This guy also said we needed a new oil shut off valve and new oil lines for a total of $1150.

I wasn't satisfied with that recommendation so I called a 2nd place to come out and give us an estimate, plus I had them clean my oil-burning furnace since it was old and dirty also. This 2nd place also took a look at the work order from the 1st place and looked at our water heater and told me that the reason our stack temp was high is because of all the soot build up inside it. They said there was no way the 1st place vacuumed and cleaned the water heater stack and showed me how much soot was built up inside it. Also, they said they would clean it for $85 and replace the oil lines AND clean the furnace all for about $600.

I want to know who to believe? I called the 1st place and complained, they won't give me a refund and offered to send a different technician out to review the work that was done by the 1st guy. I'm really feeling like I got screwed by this first company and don't know what, if anything, I can do about it.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

How about a third opinion? Cleaning the soot is no problem and the same for oil lines and a shut off valve. Those are not expensive. Electricians are though. So long as your water heater is working, why change it?

 

[pastera]

Last time I had my boiler serviced I was right there watching the guy work - never seen it done before so had no knowledge of exactly what it entailed.

Filter at the tank was changed
The side of the boiler was opened and a brush run through the heat exchanger
The ignition transformer was flipped over and the contact springs cleaned
Air was purged from changing the filter
The tech peeked in the view port at the flame and declared it good

The invoice showed all this and plenty more that was not done

Pump strainer was not cleaned/replaced
Stack was not removed and cleaned
combustion chamber was not opened for cleaning (never has with the way the wire runs)
Electrodes were not inspected or adjusted
Nozzle was not changed
Efficiency was not checked

When I got the invoice that listed what a service should be (everything I was charged for), I researched it and bought everything I needed to clean (nozzles, filters, strainers, and brush) for three years for under $50.
Cleaned the boiler this winter myself and found that the guy could not possibly have brushed the boiler very well - he just zipped the brush in/out where my brush took visible effort. Changed the strainer in the pump - wow, didn't look like it had ever been changed.

If you are going to get someone to do the work, pay by the hour and insist that they arrive with a combustion analyzer or send them packing!

 

[fishingpol]

I would go with the second company so far. If they take the time to show you what was not properly done, they are looking out for your interest. The first company seems like they are pushing sales on new installs. A quick sidenote, I had my 20-something year old gas boiler inspected and I asked my plumber if I should change it due to its' age. He said why? It still works, the efficiency is the same as a similar new boiler.(not a high efficency one). I have changed 1 relay for the circulator pump in 10 years since it was looked at. Money in my pocket.

The cost of an electrician is ridiculous. Unfortunately there are so many guys out of work due to a standstill in building development. Local guys that have their own business will give you a fair price in this economy.

I'd be reluctant to have the first company come out again, but they owe you a proper service call. It may have been a new technician servicing your heater and doing a less than stellar job. You could have the first company clean the hot water heater properly, and then give the second company any future business.

 

[Jack Straw]

I do all of my home repairs myself. I clean and service my oil fired boiler every 2 years ( only burn 75 gals/year). I service my water heater as needed and replaced it once. All that said, I am really out of touch when it comes to the cost of repairs...wow!!

 

[btuser]

I'd have to say you got ripped off by the first company. The only kind of tech who wouldn't even clean the combustion chamber on that tank is someone who didn't have a soot vac. You don't take a stack temp untill the combustion chamber is clean, all filters and screens are clean, nozzle is changed, electrodes are gapped, oil pressure is checked, all kinds of other stuff. I second the reply that stated these guys just wanted to sell you an install. Call them up, tell them you want everything replaced, soup to nutz and you don't care what it costs. Then string them out for months and schedule install dates and then cancel them or don't even show up. Yeah, I'm petty like that.

The best advice I can offer is to ask over the phone if the tech will use a combustion analyzer. Not a wet kit, bacharach kit or the ol "lookin' good" thumbs up approach. A good shop has two of these kits, and sends them out once/year to be serviced. It will give you a computerized print out of the ambient air temp, oil pressure, stack temp and mixed gases and that will give you your money's worth. When heating oil was $.89/gallon techs just opened up the air and let the good times roll, not wanting to risk sooting up the old beasts. Nowadays between oversizing, insulating, and rules of thumb your 89% efficient appliance could be giving you less than 60%.

Around here electricians are a heck of a lot cheaper than plumbers. The only good thing to say about oil-fired hot water heaters is the amount of water you can get from them. Because they have the open flue going straight through the center of the tank they start to cool your water down as soon as the burner shuts off. Add to that the fact that you have to service an extra burner and that sucker is going to cost you money compared to the electric. You could probably run the wire for yourself and have the electrician hook up at the tank + panel, cutting that estimate down to about $400. Also, a new electric hot water tank is a pretty simple home improvement project. You could get a sweet Marathon hot water heater for the kind of bread the 1st company quoted you.

 

[maverick06]

Complimenting the above comments, sounds like some sketchy work.

I am not sure how much the costs should be, but the oil companies here give you a free tuneup is you sign the contract with them (I dont, I burn about $30g/yr). The service is in the $250 price range, just for the heater.

Installing a electric water heater is super cheap (no comments on disposing of the old one). But the water heater is about $300 plus a couple bucks for plumbing fittings. Then you have to run a 220VAC line to it. Depending how far this is from the circuit box, it could be unpleasnt, but not that many dollars worth of wire (no more than $50). Now, if you needed to upgrade the pannel, thats a whole seperate issue.

But their estimate is way too high in my opinion. Do it yourself and it will cost less than $500 (have to remember to include the cost of a few cases of beer for your friends who are helping).

 

[Don2222]

Hello

This is easier than a criminal case to get the facts and to find the guilty party! LOL

I work very closely with my NEW boiler man and he is a good guy that really does his job and I can trust him.

He gave me a complete run down of how a boiler is cleaned and what causes soot.
Using the proper manometer tools as shown below and then he fills out a tag as shown below to show he has done his job!

By measuring the draft he can set the Oil Burner to let in the appropriate amount of air to burn for complete combustion.
Then by using a white strip he can insert it into the hot flue stack to see if there is any smoke.

If there is smoke, then the chimney will soot up, and the more sooty it gets the faster it will get even more sooty!

So after cleaning the boiler and checking the adjustments he should read 0 (Zero) smoke and right that on the tag. (See red arrow)

If he is not doing this he is not doing his job and you can tell the company and ask for a refund!
Knowledge is power!

Good luck

See pics below of proper tools and tag with date the work has been performed!
I too have had problems with those guys filling out and dating the tags completely. So now those guys do not come here anymore and I have NO problems

 

[btuser]

I picked up one of those kits for $35 at a yard sale. Works great, but still kind of sketchy compared to a good combustion analyzer. Anyone can fill in a card so in that case you really have to trust your tech.

 

[Don2222]

Hello

Those combustion analyzers are really nice but a bit pricy!l LOL

Getting an oil man you can trust is important.

The guy that did not put my oil tank filter back on tight is also not coming back!

See pic below! Luckily my oil company has AIG insurance because after the hazzard spill company came, they had to pay $2,000 to fix the wall and put in a new door to the garage!
So now I have a new steel door to the garage per building code and not my old wooden door for free!!

Since then I had a Cartridge Filter installed that I can change myself just like a car filter by also installing a ball valve!
Guess what, I can buy the new filter at Home Depot for alot less than the oil guy charges!!
The new oil reduction guage tells me when to change it, approx every 2 years!! More savings ChaChing!

 

[WES999]

Hello

Those combustion analyzers are really nice but a bit pricy!l LOL

Getting an oil man you can trust is important.

The guy that did not put my oil tank filter back on tight is also not coming back!

See pic below! Luckily my oil company has AIG insurance because after the hazzard spill company came, they had to pay $2,000 to fix the wall and put in a new door to the garage!
So now I have a new steel door to the garage per building code and not my old wooden door for free!!

Since then I had a Cartridge Filter installed that I can change myself just like a car filter by also installing a ball valve!
Guess what, I can buy the new filter at Home Depot for alot less than the oil guy charges!!
The new oil reduction guage tells me when to change it, approx every 2 years!! More savings ChaChing!

That spin on filter with gauge looks nice. Just wondering why you need a ball valve.It looks like there is a Firematic shut off valve right out of the tank.

Also it looks like you have unprotected plane copper tubing buried in cement, in Mass my understanding is that this will not meet code.

I have the same thing, I will replacing mine with the plastic coated tubing.

 

[btuser]

My wife's grandmother had a problem with a plugged oil line. The tech came and blew the line back into the tank, no problems. Couldn't get the pump to prime again so he replaced the pump. Still no oil so it must be bad from the factory. Never came back, but billed her for the new oil pump. Turns out he actually he ruptured the line under the slab and it ended up leaking 200+ gallons of oil into the ground, hit the footing drain, and ended up in the street.

I agree that the analyzers are not going to be a once a year item for most homeowners. You can do a very good job with the bacharach kit as long as everything is taken into account. Smoke test and stack temp are both critical, but can and will vary depending on the cycle length of the boiler. Its easy to tune a boiler for max efficiency when the minimum cycle time is 20 minutes (like when the indirect fires or its 10 degrees outside) but almost impossible during the shoulder season when 3-4 minutes of your boiler's peak demand is all that's needed to maintain your house, so most techs dump heat into all the zones (some don't even do this) and get it running for 5-10 minutes check the stack temp, adjust the air and forget about o2, co2 or any gas analysis.

I'm the type of homeowner who would not mind a no-heat call at 3AM if the alternative means I burn 200 gallons xtra fuel each year (I don't mind it because I'm the one who fixes it). Other people would never call that tech back again so it doesn't make sense for a technician to try and thread the needle. A little extra air, and a little higher stack temp will keep that boiler from sooting up. A return temp of 160F will keep the boiler from getting cold spots, and while you're at it, a tankless coil setup will always give you a warm block to fire into so short-cycling won't be as detrimental. Made a lot of sense when heating oil was $.89/gallon and a service call was on the tech's dime.

 

[Don2222]

Hello

Those combustion analyzers are really nice but a bit pricy!l LOL

Getting an oil man you can trust is important.

The guy that did not put my oil tank filter back on tight is also not coming back!

See pic below! Luckily my oil company has AIG insurance because after the hazzard spill company came, they had to pay $2,000 to fix the wall and put in a new door to the garage!
So now I have a new steel door to the garage per building code and not my old wooden door for free!!

Since then I had a Cartridge Filter installed that I can change myself just like a car filter by also installing a ball valve!
Guess what, I can buy the new filter at Home Depot for alot less than the oil guy charges!!
The new oil reduction guage tells me when to change it, approx every 2 years!! More savings ChaChing!

That spin on filter with gauge looks nice. Just wondering why you need a ball valve.It looks like there is a Firematic shut off valve right out of the tank.

Also it looks like you have unprotected plane copper tubing buried in cement, in Mass my understanding is that this will not meet code.

I have the same thing, I will replacing mine with the plastic coated tubing.

The ball valve is so much easier to turn than the Firematic, in fact they want them on new installations before the firematic so if the firematic goes it can be changed out real easy! That Firematic is so old I do not want to touch it Now I do not have too

Yes, that is bare copper in the concrete. I did some work for my neighbor and he gave me a piece just long enough to run along the floor. Just have not had time to install it yet !! See pic

 

[btuser]

Flare fittings please.

 

[kingston73]

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. After getting many opinions on how to handle things, I ended up calling the 1st place and asking to talk with a manager about the poor service call. The woman who answered the first time I called said she'd give the manager my number and he would call me back. I waited 3 or 4 hours and then called them back and was told the manager had been given the message and would definitely call me back as soon as he had time. Waited until a half hour before their posted closing time and called back and was told the manager was on an emergency call and would get back to me the next day. I hung up the phone and immediately went online to the BBB site and lodged a complaint, and the next day the manager called me up and after talking to him a bit he decided he would issue me a full refund as long as I close the complaint on the BBB site, so as soon as I get the check they are sending me I'll go clear the complaint.

I did some price checking and it doesn't really seem like an electric will save me much money at all, plus there are about $200 in permits involved with switching. Since we'll be keeping our oil furnace for a long while yet I think I'll just have this water heater cleaned properly by the 2nd company, sign up with them for a service and oil contract, and eventually replace it with a new, more efficient oil heater.

 

[Exmasonite]

Gonna go down a little tangent here:

Say you get the refund and the payment clears... are you legally required to close the complaint? I'd be inclined to leave it open and even mention that the guy tried to buy you off to close the complaint. I have never had to pursue a BBB filing so feel free to educate a novice here... will the BBB consider the refund as a satisfactory resolution to the problem?

Thanks and glad you're at least getting the $ back.