Questions about stove and chimney setkup

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eastmitten

New Member
Dec 6, 2009
29
New Hampshire
Hi all,
A few years ago you all were very helpful in helping me figure out what stove to get - ended up with the Alderlea T5 and love it. I believe the pipes/chimney are Excel. For various reasons I questioned the original setup and had someone come and take a look and he has some concerns as well. I'd like to get some other opinions and respect what you all say. I will do whatever I need to do to be safe. I've attached some pictures to help explain my questions. Thanks in advance!

Crawl Space above stove
I'm concerned with the clearance in the crawl space where the chimney passes through to the roof. There appears to be about an inch between inner pipe and outer ring but no clearance between outer ring and insulation. This is what concerns me the most about the setup.
There's even some (what looks like) old orange calking on the pipe which tells me the pipe in the crawl space was used material which I wasn't told about but functionally it's fine which is good.
The ceiling strapping was cut and the "box" (not sure that's the right word) was placed between the rafters and cut strapping but the metal tabs don't attach to anything so it seems the stove itself is holding the pipe and chimney in place. This has also caused the tiled ceiling to sag a bit. The pictures should help show what I'm trying to explain.

Room with Stove
Is the ceiling thimble too long? Should it have been cut down so as not to come down from my ceiling a good 18 inches? I looked at a lot of images online and haven't seen it so big.
The double wall pipe coming right out of the stove gets extremely hot, especially when the stove first gets rolling - it is at least 18" from the walls. It gets so hot it's too hot to touch the walls. I first thought about installing a heat shield behind the double-walled pipe but was just told that it could be because there is not enough air between the pipes and that the inner telescoping pipe is taking up so much room inside the outer pipe (at least that's how I understand it to be). The stove rarely hits 500 degrees. Trust me, I keep my eye on that temp gage (directly on top of stove).


Roof

The roof flashing appears to be one that is typically used on metal roofs and could give me some water issues. This setup has calking around the box - not sure if this could get loosened with any good winds or over time dry out. But am told this is the wrong flashing for my roof.
I understand that the support bars for the chimney should be behind the chimney about 45 degrees off each side (leaving them 90 degrees apart). I'm wondering if they didn't put the back right one where it should be because they would have had to cut the telescoping piece in order to make it fit properly to the roof. When the guy got up there to clean it the other day the top 2 feet of pipe was extremely wobbly because it was poorly attached to the lower piece of chimney.

I know there is a lot here but I certainly do appreciate all your feedback.

Thanks a lot!!
MK
 

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I love that stove. Do you know if it is within compliance to combustibles? it looks a little close to the wall. You may want to look into that aspect as well.
 
It's in compliance for sure. That's why I got this particular stove so I could tuck it into that corner. Though I'm not sure of the required distance to combustibles in the crawl space. It just looks tight to me up there.
 
eastmitten, when I look at the top left photo showing the ceiling mounting box and the insulation pulled away, I'm concerned. While I'm not familiar with the various brands and installation routines of class A chimneys, I am versed in one brand and also in construction. The manufacturer put tabs on the outer ring for a reason - screws or nails. The stove pipe and hence stove should not be supporting the chimney. The ceiling support is supposed to support the chimney. From the photo of your ceiling tiles, I can not tell if the tiles are sagging. Sounds like from your post they are. I wonder whether there is a roof saddle support holding the chimney up but couldn't tell from the picture that shows the pipe going through the elipse in the roof sheathing.

I would at the very least have your installer come back to look at it and explain your concerns. Or call another reputable installer through a stove shop and have them take a look at it. Best of luck.
 
Well, you are correct. That is not the typical installation, at all.

Let's start from the top. The brace on the pipe is wrong. It is set up from the side and will not do well for strong wind or snow against the pipe. It should be directly behind the pipe, close to the ridge and on the upper section of the pipe. The roof flashing they used is for metal roofs. The correct flashing would have been covered by the 3 tab and flush. Moving down, you are correct about the ceiling support (ERDSI). They were supposed to box frame that. There should be no weight on the ceiling tiles. And it should not protrude into the room more than about 6" for double wall pipe. If this is single-wall then it is the diagonal distance to the ceiling = 18".

I'm surprised at the comments about the wall heat from the connector. Are you sure you have double-wall pipe coming off the stove? With double-wall pipe the adjacent walls can be warm, but should reach above say 130F I'd think. I can appreciate the concerns because of the other work, but it would help to have some specifics on the wall temps. Do you have an IR thermometer to measure them. If not, how long can you place your hand on the wall before it is too hot?
 
I uploaded a picture taken up the chimney through the hole in the roof. I don't see any attachments there.
Also, uploaded a picture of the fittings of the pipes around the wood stove. The guy who recently looked at it wondered if it was double wall but I was told it was double wall by the installer and am not sure if you can tell from this picture. As for the heat on the walls - it seems when the stove first heats up to its peak - around 450-500 that it gets too hot to keep my hand on it. AND, I can smell the hot paint. I then back it down but it does eventually get back up to that 450-500 temp but seems that the walls aren't as hot at that point.

Thanks for all the feedback so far!
MK
 

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If the clearance to the roof decking is less than 2", it has inadequate clearance there. This may be able to be fixed if there is enough coverage by the storm collar to remove some of the roof deck there. But it would take a careful touch so that no compromise occurs to the flashing.

As for the connector, put the stove thermometer on it at about 18" above the stove when the stove top is hot and a good fire is going. Let us know the temperature reading there. Normal stove top temps for this stove are in the 500-650F range. If the stove has never been up to 650F, then it may smell a little of paint the first time.
 
BeGreen - so there needs to be a 2" clearance around the chimney pipe as it passes through the hole in the roof? I'll have to get back up there and measure that.
We haven't lit the stove yet this fall because of all the potential issues we have - otherwise, I'd crank it up and do the temp measurement as you asked. The first time it got hot 2 years ago we could smell the stove paint but now it's definitely the wall. The paint is even tacky to touch, especially on the window trim.
Can you tell from the last picture I posted whether it's a double wall pipe?
Thanks a lot....
 
I got up in the crawl space and measured the distance from the rafters to the chimney and it's not uniform all the way around the pipe. It's less than 2" in some parts. Unfortunately, the section that would need expanding butts right up with the top of the flashing out on the roof. Which I want to swap out because it's designed for a metal roof, not shingles like I have.
Where the pipe comes up through the crawl space floor there's about 3" on one side and less than 2" on the other between pipe and joists. I'm assuming it's the distance between chimney pipe and combustibles and not the collar that is around the pipe. Because the joists are to the right of the rafters it's centered between the rafters but not the joists.

So from what you have all written and from what I've read, this is not to code. Not sure where I go from here.

Thanks again for any input.
MK
 
It sounds like the biggest concern is the pipe to roof cutout clearance. The metal roof flashing was not necessary, but is not unsafe. Be sure to get the roof brace correct before there is snow on the roof.

Down below, it looks like this might be double-wall into a stove adapter. The surface temps of the pipe would clearly tell this. The pipe shield is unnecessarily low into the room if this is double-wall pipe. 6" penetration is sufficient. The protection would be better served if it was pulled up into the attic space. And box frame it so that the flanges and shield are supported by the framing and not the ceiling. I prefer to have this frame screwed in place so that it doesn't mess up the ceiling.
 
Hi BeGreen,

Thanks again for all the help. I really appreciate it. Sorry for all these questions - I've Googled looking for pictures of what a good install looks like but can't find any that fit my setup.
What would the box frame look like - is it wood? Are all clearances in the attic space based on distance from chimney pipe to combustibles? Or anything that's metal and combustibles. Because once the pipe shield is pulled into the attic space I'm guessing it will be right next to a joists and the 2" is absolutely not there. Does the pipe shield get warm but just not hot enough to affect the combustibles?

I considered starting ONE fire to see about temps on pipe and stove but is it ok knowing that clearances aren't right in attic space? Seems like a dumb question but not sure how else to determine double-wall or not.

With all the things wrong with this installation I'm really hesitant to get my initial installer to fix anything. Do you have any recommendations on how to approach that? The chimney guy that cleaned the chimney last week and told me about all these issues can piece-meal things back together but I'm considering just ripping it all out and starting it over (using his parts which are different than initial parts) - costly yes, but only about $500 more to completely use everything new vs. fix things here and there.

MK
 
eastmitten said:
Hi BeGreen,

Thanks again for all the help. I really appreciate it. Sorry for all these questions - I've Googled looking for pictures of what a good install looks like but can't find any that fit my setup.
What would the box frame look like - is it wood? Are all clearances in the attic space based on distance from chimney pipe to combustibles? Or anything that's metal and combustibles. Because once the pipe shield is pulled into the attic space I'm guessing it will be right next to a joists and the 2" is absolutely not there. Does the pipe shield get warm but just not hot enough to affect the combustibles?

I considered starting ONE fire to see about temps on pipe and stove but is it ok knowing that clearances aren't right in attic space? Seems like a dumb question but not sure how else to determine double-wall or not.

With all the things wrong with this installation I'm really hesitant to get my initial installer to fix anything. Do you have any recommendations on how to approach that? The chimney guy that cleaned the chimney last week and told me about all these issues can piece-meal things back together but I'm considering just ripping it all out and starting it over (using his parts which are different than initial parts) - costly yes, but only about $500 more to completely use everything new vs. fix things here and there.

MK
It may pay you to do just that, get someone over there that KNOWS what they are doing and spend the extra 5 Fraklins to know it is done right......you absolutely HAVE to maintain the manufacturers clearances to combustibles, otherwise in the event of a fire (God forbid) and the insurance co. comes to look at your install, you will be on your own.....so do the right thing and get it perfect.....like you and your family's lives depend on it, because they very well may....
 
If you down load the chimney manual it will show you how the chimney is to be installed, not sure what brand you have but I put the Duravent manual on my computer.
 
Sorry you have to deal with a botched installation. The fellow that did this clearly did not know what he was doing.

The installation documents for your pipe will show you how it is supposed to be framed in. Here is a link and a cutaway view of how it should look.

http://www.icc-rsf.com/c/icc/file_db/maindocs_e/EXCELUSA.pdf

TIP: when you box frame in the guard support, use 3 1/2" decking screws instead of nails. That is a tight location to work in. Using screws will also disturb the ceiling tiles less. Pre-drill the 2x4s with clearance holes, then screw together.
 

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Thanks to everyone for your advice. I have the local fire department coming on monday to check the clearances in the attic. Then getting it all fixed... but not in time for our first Nor'easter!
MK
 
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