reasonable price for intall -and storage complicating things

[Paul]

I have had a Eko 40 waiting for install since last Oct. and the person lined up to do the install,(was waiting for his quote) backed out on me :grrr: I have been asking in my area who is knowledgeable and had the new installer over for a look at my requirements.
Problems
1) He thinks that since I have 2 -200gal storage tanks horizontal and a third 200gal vertical that this will complicate the system and thus increase the price due to extra controls to monitor/regulate the system.
2) his first quote came in at $15 000- after I picked myself up off of the floor -I found that he has quoted the system with all computerized monitoring system.
When I mentioned that this was way out of my budget he said that a more simplified low tech system would be about $8500-$9000 if I eliminated the vertical tank?

I already have gassifier furnace/ storage tanks/ DHW side arm / electricity/ thermostat and wire and insulated pipe into the house- all in place.
What he is quoting is - mixing valves, pumps, sensors, controllers, heat exchanger for forced air furnace, pipe, pressure tanks, etc. and labour
price also includes- follow up visits, and 2 year warranty
I am hesitant to take this project on myself and was hoping that I could hire someone for this job but was not expecting it to be quite this much. I thought this was a more simplistic system than some I have read about on this forum.
Am I being too cheap or is this a reasonable price? is it a good idea to drop the 200gal vertical storage?
I can try to post pictures if it would be of any help.
your feedback would be greatly appreciated.

 

[stee6043]

$8500 is not "outrageous" I'd say. I have heard it said several times on this forum: "take the cost of the boiler and double it" - and that is your installed cost. Storage does complicate the plumbing somewhat. Straight piping a boiler to a heat zone is quite a bit different than setting up storage and being able to send water to both storage and the loads vs. just storage when loads are not calling for heat.

I'd bet I easily have $2000 in black pipe, fittings, shut-off's, etc. in my system. You'd be surprised by how quickly the plumbing parts add-up.

My installed cost was ball park $14-15k and I did 100% of the labor myself. Well, I did pay $150 to have a hole bored in my foundation. But that's it. The install took me 3 months of weekends, nights, etc. Not full time by any means but it is a lot of work. I'd really encourage you to look into self installing. It's not that difficult and when you get done you'll be able to trouble shoot your system all by yourself. And you'll save a boat load of cash.

 

[sgschwend]

I thought you said you already had a system? How about describing you previous system design?

 

[RobC]

How about reading up on how you want the piping and controlling done, this is an unbelievable resource. Take this as far as you can, so you really know the system and the how any why of all the parts and their relationship to each other. Then look on craigslist or go to your local supply house and ask for a ( semi ) retired licensed plumber to help put the system together. The benefit here is you will know how to troubleshoot your system.

With your 3 tanks. Are there 2 horizontal end to end and one vertical or, are there 2 horizontal stacked and one vertical ? Could you go 3 vertical ?

 

[sdrobertson]

I already have gassifier furnace/ storage tanks/ DHW side arm / electricity/ thermostat and wire and insulated pipe into the house- all in place.
What he is quoting is - mixing valves, pumps, sensors, controllers, heat exchanger for forced air furnace, pipe, pressure tanks, etc. and labour
price also includes- follow up visits, and 2 year warranty
I am hesitant to take this project on myself and was hoping that I could hire someone for this job but was not expecting it to be quite this much. I thought this was a more simplistic system than some I have read about on this forum.
Am I being too cheap or is this a reasonable price? is it a good idea to drop the 200gal vertical storage?
I can try to post pictures if it would be of any help.
your feedback would be greatly appreciated.

If you installed all these items yourself, your already half way there. If you set down with a piece of paper and diagram what you want the system to do, then it shouldn't be to hard to figure out the piping and controls. With the different storage tanks, its still a matter of going in at one place on the tanks and going out at a different place. Look into the stickies at the top and ask lots of questions here. Looking at the whole picture, it looks hard to figure it out. Breaking it down to where you want the water to go and figuring out where it is coming from, then its easier to figure it out.

 

[pybyr]

I'm reminded of that expression: "Fast, Good and Cheap- pick any two"

A lot can vary with the installation particulars. Large-diameter pipe and fittings can start adding up __rapidly__ (perhaps, if you're inclined, see if you might be able to acquire used, good condition iron pipe from salvage/ renovation angles?) (be sure to check condition carefully).

A quality, large water to air heat exchanger will easily get into the multiple hundreds of $$$- and you don't want to go cheap there-- in order to be able to use heat from your storage over the widest temp range, you need a bigger exchanger than is typically spec'd for a "regular" system that may assume 180 degree water. I had mine made through-
http://www.nationwidecoils.com/
and had a good experience. I could've gotten something else for less, but not of this quality, and mine can deliver substantial heat to the house with moderate water temperatures.

 

[Paul]

Thanks for the input -I'll try to answer some of the questions raised.
The 2 horizontal tanks are stacked and the vertical tank is taller than the stacked pr.
Since the horiz tanks were propane I just used the existing legs and had angle iron welded to lower tank to support.
I used to have a wood oil combination furnace but took it out and put in a mid efficiency oil furnace in the house.
Spent last summer building the insulated out building 11'x13' with wrap around lean too for wood and tractor storage and trenched in the culvert to run the piping and wire into the house.
Everything is in position -just needs to be connected with plumbing and controls.
The only good news from all of this is I have quite a pile of wood that should be well seasoned by the time the furnace is up and running.
I have been following this forum for over a year and have learnt allot from all the knowledgeable information, suggestions that are available and this is what I have used to get as far as I have.
The work to finish the set up I was trying to avoid, only to save my sanity, but if the labour is going to be $4000 on a $8000 install, I may have to rethink it.
I have the simple storage schematic that is posted and will have to make my decision soon. I am hesitant, as in my reading of the forum there is so many little and large mistakes that can be made that effect the efficiency or prevent the simple operation of the system.
thanks again

 

[sgschwend]

Sounds like if you want to have the piece of mind and the 2 year warranty then you would pay the money and forget about the issue.

I believe I read some good advice which was:
draw up your plans,
from that make your material list and then you can price the parts.

I installed a Greenwood with a water to air heat exchanger for him sounds a lot like what you are doing. The majority of the work was setting all the parts where they belong. Then I used my Wirsbo Propex tool and made all the connections. We were nearly done by lunchtime, I remember I had Subway sandwich. I guess what I am trying to say is "take this one step at a time, don't over think about steps down the order".

 

[in hot water]

without seeing a complete list of materials, that sounds like a fair price.

When you hire a pro you pay a fair hourly rate which includes his overhead, like license, tools and insurance, especially liability insurance. Most contractors nowadays are required to carry a 2 million dollar liability policy. Add it all up and 75- 100 bucks or more an hour is what it costs a contractor to be in business. In some larger cities I hear prices approaching 200 bucks an hour for a skilled, licensed, insured contractor.

 

[pybyr]

I guess what I am trying to say is "take this one step at a time, don't over think about steps down the order".

I sort of agree with that, in that if you try to get up the learning curve all at once and conceive of a final functional and physical layout, it may seem too much to get your head around. At the same time, if you can come up with a configuration where your boiler, storage, and heat load are all relatively close together and need a minimum of pipe length and fittings, that'll save $$$ (large diameter pipe, and fittings, of whatever material (at least materials suited for boiler applications) do not come cheap).

A pro may be able to visualize potential available physical configurations that a DIY-er may not, and some of those configurations may save labor and materials. But then again, someone who's a pro in other ways may be rather (or entirely) new to some of the specifics involved with gasifiers and heat storage. Late 2008, I was speaking with a friend who's a retired heating pro, and remarked at my frustration with my own pace; he replied that a lot of people in the trade would be taking a long time, too, as many have not done this type of install.

 

[muncybob]

I know next to nothing about plumbing or heating and I was thinking my install would be a 1 day job until I learned from this forum and some pro's that came by. I was fortunate in getting a BIG price break on the labor (basically $20/hr.) but it still took the installer and his son(who was doing the grunt work with Dad supervising{he was on vacation}, hence the price break) 4 trips here to finish their part of the install. In all it took them apprx. 30 hours of actual hands on labor time, excluding travel and parts shopping....and this was without storage(although it's plumbed for future storage) and the only other device in the scheme is my electric water heater.

In the end I'm glad they did the work and not me and a friend or we would still be at it!