We're rebuilding a manifold and considering steel vs. copper or PEX. The steel would be free. Copper is far from free. We have CPVC and it's been very problematic with differential expansion / contraction. Any thoughts?
rebuilding a manafold and considering steel vs. copper, PEX or CPVC
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Dune
Minister of Fire
Do you have the ability to weld and or machine steel? Where you planning to thread it all together using black iron tees?
Copper is probably the easiest, fastest, best. Threaded pipe, next best/easy, welded steel, the cheapest, if you have the time, skill and equipment. Can't see the need to even think about the plastic.
When I used to help my brother install radiant heat-pex systems, we always made our own manifolds from copper tees. I asked him why, since other heating contractors used nice brass PEX manifolds. Apparently the ones we built were both cheaper for him and better suited to the exact requirements of the job. Yes, he is yankee thrifty, but his piping systems are noteworthy and perform very well.
If do do go the welded route, DO NOT use merchant couplings, the tread protectors that come with lengths of pipe. They are steel and weld well, but they have a running pipe thread, not the standard tapered pipe thread, and are difficult to seal. The best way is to cut nipples in half.
Copper is probably the easiest, fastest, best. Threaded pipe, next best/easy, welded steel, the cheapest, if you have the time, skill and equipment. Can't see the need to even think about the plastic.
When I used to help my brother install radiant heat-pex systems, we always made our own manifolds from copper tees. I asked him why, since other heating contractors used nice brass PEX manifolds. Apparently the ones we built were both cheaper for him and better suited to the exact requirements of the job. Yes, he is yankee thrifty, but his piping systems are noteworthy and perform very well.
If do do go the welded route, DO NOT use merchant couplings, the tread protectors that come with lengths of pipe. They are steel and weld well, but they have a running pipe thread, not the standard tapered pipe thread, and are difficult to seal. The best way is to cut nipples in half.
I would use black pipe and cut threads. That's the way I'm leaning because of the cost. We have a Rigid model 1822 threader which works very fast up to 2". There are no small manifolds for radiant heat. We're using a water/air HX in the forced air furnace.
I see you use a 30 ton electric splitter. What horse power motor do you have? Is it single phase or three phase? How does the cycle time compare to other types?
Thanks for you input.
I see you use a 30 ton electric splitter. What horse power motor do you have? Is it single phase or three phase? How does the cycle time compare to other types?
Thanks for you input.
btuser
Minister of Fire
I just finished a 6 zone header for both supply and return, including indirect with all new circulators ect.
I used black pipe. If I were to do it again I would have used copper. If you go with black pipe PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't use the cheap chinese fittings you will find at Home Depot and Lowes. Ward makes a superior product that will run straight, I tried to assemble a header using home depot tees and nipples and it was a disaster. I thoulght it was me untill I tried it again using Ward fittings per a sprinkler's fitter's advice. If you start at the boiler and work out it would be easier than the way I did it, which was to assemble the headers, then work backwards towards the boiler in an attemp to reduce downtime. I didn't have a threader, so it was frustrating.
I used black pipe. If I were to do it again I would have used copper. If you go with black pipe PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't use the cheap chinese fittings you will find at Home Depot and Lowes. Ward makes a superior product that will run straight, I tried to assemble a header using home depot tees and nipples and it was a disaster. I thoulght it was me untill I tried it again using Ward fittings per a sprinkler's fitter's advice. If you start at the boiler and work out it would be easier than the way I did it, which was to assemble the headers, then work backwards towards the boiler in an attemp to reduce downtime. I didn't have a threader, so it was frustrating.
btuser said:
I've had the same bad experience with cheap Chinese fittings. Never again. And I was planning on starting at the boiler with roughly 48"- 54" between supply and return. Should make it easier to line up the pump flanges etc.
I didn't mention this in the original post, but part of the reason I'm leaning towards black pipe is that the secondary side of the HX is an open system. This includes the DWH, water/air HX and another hx to a shop system in another building. I also have a future geothermal horizontal ground loop planned for cooling through the water/ air HX.
I've had a bad experience when mixing different products in the same system. We had PEX, CPVC and black pipe together and with the different expansion / contraction rates all of the steel / plastic joints developed leaks. In mid winter we needed to fix leaks and used black pipe to replace the CPVC. Long story short....no more leaks. Cheap isn't always cheap.
Thanks for your thoughts....
woodsmaster
Minister of Fire
Pex supply sells some reasonably priced heat manifolds if they'll work for your application. they come with flow meters and valves for each branch and a thermometer for in and out. also a drain for easy filling of system.
I bought a couple from them and they are made in china but seem to be high quality.
I bought a couple from them and they are made in china but seem to be high quality.
Dune
Minister of Fire
Sorry, didn't realilize you meant boiler manifolds. Iron is definitely best due to expansion.
The splitter is undergoing an update at the moment. Last year I ran it from a 5hp power pack out of my metalworking shop. Rediculous force but painfully slow. This year I am building a new power pack, with a 10hp single phase 220 volt, 42 amp Baldor motor. I am hoping that that motor, coupled to a large two stage pump will result in splitzilla.
The splitter is undergoing an update at the moment. Last year I ran it from a 5hp power pack out of my metalworking shop. Rediculous force but painfully slow. This year I am building a new power pack, with a 10hp single phase 220 volt, 42 amp Baldor motor. I am hoping that that motor, coupled to a large two stage pump will result in splitzilla.
btuser
Minister of Fire
I love the idea of an electric splitter.
I used the boiler manifolds from pexsupply. Speed header or something like that. Its great, and just as cheap as fittings + nipples, but one thing to look out for is the take off length from the header if using circulators per zone. It may not matter in low pressure systems but a good rule of thumb is minimum 12" from header to pump in order to cut down on cavitation. I had to couple extensions onto the 4" take-offs of the Speed Header, which of course brought my cost up about $12 which is exactly how much I saved by using the header! It makes for a nice compact install with no leaks, but you're stuck on the size and a Taco 007 is tight in between. Twist them to the side to make it easier to wire.
http://www.dropshots.com/nhmatt#date/2010-07-10/15:33:13
Not a lot of room
I used the boiler manifolds from pexsupply. Speed header or something like that. Its great, and just as cheap as fittings + nipples, but one thing to look out for is the take off length from the header if using circulators per zone. It may not matter in low pressure systems but a good rule of thumb is minimum 12" from header to pump in order to cut down on cavitation. I had to couple extensions onto the 4" take-offs of the Speed Header, which of course brought my cost up about $12 which is exactly how much I saved by using the header! It makes for a nice compact install with no leaks, but you're stuck on the size and a Taco 007 is tight in between. Twist them to the side to make it easier to wire.
http://www.dropshots.com/nhmatt#date/2010-07-10/15:33:13
Not a lot of room
woodsmaster
Minister of Fire
[quote author="woodsmaster" date="1278812193"]Pex supply sells some reasonably priced heat manifolds if they'll work for your application. they come with flow meters and valves for each branch and a thermometer for in and out. also a drain for easy filling of system.
I bought a couple from them and they are made in china but seem to be high quality.[/quote
I thought you meant heat manifold but, I see pexsupply also offers boiler headers that are resonable.
I bought a couple from them and they are made in china but seem to be high quality.[/quote
I thought you meant heat manifold but, I see pexsupply also offers boiler headers that are resonable.
This company builds really nice steel, welded headers. www.earthlee.com Many of the wholesalers, back east stock the speed headers or Lee will custom build whatever you need. That red painted one shown here is a custom one they built for me to use on a large commercial radiant floor system, a few years back. Their welds and fab work are excellent. Lee Brooks, a woman by the way, is the owner of the business.
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I like those...how much did they cost if you don't mind me asking?
Could you also enlighten me as to which wholesalers sell them? I'm looking for one of their standard headers.
Could you also enlighten me as to which wholesalers sell them? I'm looking for one of their standard headers.
I just found a link to a company selling some of their standard headers:
http://www.designheating.com/Catalog/products.cfm?Manufacturer=EARTHLEE LTD&Category=Boiler Headers&SubCat=Steel Speed Headers
Great prices. THANK YOU for the link. I was looking at >$300 to build what I wanted out of threaded pipe. I can buy two of those for about $126 and have a better product as far as I can tell.
http://www.designheating.com/Catalog/products.cfm?Manufacturer=EARTHLEE LTD&Category=Boiler Headers&SubCat=Steel Speed Headers
Great prices. THANK YOU for the link. I was looking at >$300 to build what I wanted out of threaded pipe. I can buy two of those for about $126 and have a better product as far as I can tell.
Well, I just ordered directly from Earth Lee since they didn't have any wholesalers in my area. I went with a custom set of headers. 1-1/4" trunk with (5) 3/4" outlets and (2) 1" outlets.
We didn't discuss color...so I guess black. Color doesn't matter to me as long as it functions properly 
Mine came today. 1-1/4" body, five 3/4" outlets, two 1" inlets, and I'll be capping off the 1-1/4" ends for now. Bad pic, my wife sent it to my phone because I'm at work.
Tennman
Minister of Fire
Boy... wish I'd known about this before I bought and screwed together a whole bunch of iron fittings. Way cheaper, cleaner, and fewer leaks..... I'm envious, but mine's done.
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