Replace tile or use a liner??

[log-on]

Hi everyone, Here's my problem;
36' tall concrete block chimmeny with 8x12 clay liner ( standard building supply stuff. )
I built it myself 1983. I had ( good ?) advice from a professional and used mineral wool insulation in the space between liner and chimmeny.
We have an original Fisher Mama Bear. Its a workhorse, but can crank out cresote like crazy.
It's down in the basement and the chimmeny goes through the next 2 stories including a 12' cieling attic. It then goes through a 4' unheated space to exit at peak of house.
I've had a few chimmeny fires and one was a nasty 6 day slow burn. The chimmeny was very clean after that but the liner at the top is cracked. Also cresote leaked from the morter in the attic.
I clean it myself 2 x per year and last spring could not get the cresote off, It was very hard and glassy. We hired a chimmeny inspector and he recomended using condisoner. He aslo noticed the cracked tiles and recomended instaling a liner.
I used the conditioner and managed to get the brush down. Full wheelbarrow !! of soot. I removed the top brick and liner as they were broken anyway. I measured the inside dimention and it's only 5 1/2" ?? This seem like it would be to small.
I am replacing the old Fisher as well so am looking for a new stove. Any Ideas about stoves that use a 5" flue?? or should I just remove the top 10" of chimmeny and see whats going on. THanks

 

[DriftWood]

Hi welcome aboard! This is the rigth place to ask questions. can you describe your set up better. Is the chimney inside or out side the house, Is it 8 x 12 OD ceramic liner, what is the 6 1/2 ID stuff you are talking about? What is the surrounding chimney made of and the total thickness of the will of the chimney?

 

[elkimmeg]

After the latest chimney fire leaking creosote threw the bricks says it all. The existing chimney is unfit for use. The FD should have condemn it

advice from a professional and used mineral wool insulation in the space between liner and chimmeny.

Bad advice, all it did was contain a smoldering chimney fire for days. You are very lucky to be living in that house and typing to us here.

I think you have had enough adventures Ever chimney fire a fire Dept response to the chimney is condemned till fully inspected and certified for re use.

a standard 8/2 liner is 6.82 interior demention You will never fit a 6" 1/2" insulated liner down that chimney You could use an oval insulated liner or have a cast
poured in liner. I can't even imagine taking out a wheelbarrow's full of creosote and soot. Like I said you are lucky, just being able to type your post

 

[seaken]

I think this is best diagnosed by a local chimney professional. It sounds to me like you have a very dangerous condition and that you should immediately discontinue use of the wood stove. The very situation you describe has been the cause of many house fires over the years and has led to tougher standards and more responsible code enforcement. Then again, safety codes are not taken too seriously by everyone. I have many customers who continue to chug away with the stoves they purchased 25 and 30 years ago and have them installed in unlined masonry chimneys. They feel it is not that risky. To each their own, I say. But I would suggest that a full insulated liner system is in order, along with a new modern clean-burning wood stove. If you are do-it-yourselfer you could do the whole thing for less than $2000. If you hire a pro you'll pay more like $4000 (US Dollars).

If you have 8 x 13 tiles you should have about 6-1/2" x 11" inside the tile. If the tiles shift, you'll end up with less. Perhaps that is why you have only 5-1/2". If I were you I would remove the terra-cotta tiles and install a properly insulated stainless steel liner system. With the tiles in place you will have to use "rectangle flex" and the cost will be high. It will be cheaper to remove the tiles.

 

[webbie]

Tiles vary in size, as you have found out!

That stove uses an 8" flue, doesn't it? If so, you are going to have a tough time with a liner. Some companies will sell you a rectangular lining, which might be 5x10 inside or something like that.

So pick a new stove with a 6" and use a slightly ovalized pipe - you should be fine. Also, if you can, inspect the wood framing of the house carefully where the chimney goes through it. The framing should not touch the masonry chimney! If it does, or is very close, inspect it carefully for signs of excess heat. That is where the danger zone is.

Basically, a stove like that into a chimney like that is an accident waiting to happen - and although it may have taken awhile to happen, you can only imagine the scene when there were millions of similar stoves burning (late 70's) - houses burning down left and right!

Yes, there are cameras that can be lowered down to inspect. Perhaps the flue survived the chimney fires - plural, because your probably have some here and there without knowing about them.

 

[log-on]

Thanks for the speedy response I've used many forums before to get answers to problems and this is a very good forum. I have many other questions as I try to remedy this,, yes I agree,, 100% dangerous situation. Do not worry I've only been making a few small fires just to get coals for the conditioner to work. We are totally aware of the condition of the chimney and have not been using the fire. We wish to resume heating with wood ( or Pellets) and are planning on buying a new stove. I'm just worried about what to do with the chimney. The guy I had inspect it was not that precise and didn't even come in the house,, just shone a flashlight down the top?? To clarify some items
Specs:
Chimney is the pre-formed concrete type outside is 16x20 and 8" high The flue liner is outside di. 12"x8" ( the inside is only 5 and 3/4" on the 8" side.)
The chimney runs through the centre of the house and is fully exposed every where but where it runs through the 3rd story ceilings out to the roof ( about 4') House is Timber frame and has chimney is 2" clearances plus tin flashing. Stove sits on a concrete floor and yes it has a 8" thimble.
Before we look at new stoves I need to decide on either re-lining with what will have to be a 5" flue liner or seeing if I can take the top part of the chimney apart and replace the tiles.
Taking the whole 36' apart is out of the question,, my wife will divorce me.

 

[webbie]

Based on that, a liner that is slightly oval that fits inside the existing tile (6") would do the job very safely. You won't need insulation because the chimney has clearance from wood. If you decide on a pellet stove, you will also be able to line it.

Main thing is to clean it out really well before lining it.

 

[DriftWood]

Elkimmeg is right about the 6in stove vent and insulation. A Inside chimney is a dream set up for me Ive got this huge brick thing on the north side outside. You can order the SS liner ovalised at the factory. Its not cheap. But will really draw when you get a new stove on it. A 36 ft run is a lot. Talk to the tecks at the stove company and pipe company about that, I have read here some people want smaller vent dia. to avoid over draft problems.

Over size the stove btu out put a little depending on how much of the house you want to heat. I have noticed that manufactures are giving sg ft numbers for modern tight houses. Have fun picking out a new stove!! Manuals are down loadable at most manufactures web sites or just google the stove or pipe you are thinking about and manual pdf. The guys here can answer questions about almost any stove ever-made .

 

[elkimmeg]

you won’t need insulation because the chimney has clearance from wood. If you decide on a pellet stove, you will also be able to line it.

thjis is wrong any chimney that had a fire where cresote ooxzed right threw the bricks is not safe the integrity or lac there of has been compromised and exposed

the insulation is required to fully comply with UL 1777 the chimney should be condemned f by the FD till fully corrected he It is quite evident the liners motar joints are compromised Cresote leaking threw the bricks says it all. Too many past fires have left the damage toll

since the intergery is compromised insulation and UL1777 standard is the only way and required before ever using that stove any stove or the chimney again

 

[seaken]

you won’t need insulation because the chimney has clearance from wood. If you decide on a pellet stove, you will also be able to line it.

thjis is wrong any chimney that had a fire where cresote ooxzed right threw the bricks is not safe the integrity or lac there of has been compromised and exposed

the insulation is required to fully comply with UL 1777 the chimney should be condemned f by the FD till fully corrected he It is quite evident the liners motar joints are compromised Cresote leaking threw the bricks says it all. Too many past fires have left the damage toll

since the intergery is compromised insulation and UL1777 standard is the only way and required before ever using that stove any stove or the chimney again

Elk, I was not aware this was in the code. Can you point me to where this is? I agree with the intent, but I didn't know it was code.

To the original poster, if I were you I would remove the existing tile liners and replace with an insulated SS liner. You do not need to rebuild the whole thing. The tiles will come out with a breaker. Hard work, but doable.

 

[webbie]

Well, this certainly shows how diagnosing from afar is difficult. The posted admitted that the top tile or tiles cracked, and that he removed them. In such a case, as with bad waterproofing on the top of the chimney, watered down creosote is likely to come through a mortar joint. But once the top is repaired and sealed up, it will not do this any longer. As to the mortar joints and flue times further down, it is my experience that these are "compromised" from the minute they are installed, since they often have cracks in them right in the masonry yard!

Your sweep, installer and/or local official are the ones to get involved from here and make determinations based on what is actually there - as opposed to us from a distance.

It might be that a combination of the above suggestions is possible. If it were me, I would do just about anything to avoid breaking out the tiles, but if I did, I would consider a poured cement liner once I had done so.

You might even be able to find pipe that is ovalized enough to get some insulation on and still fit it down. Given the height of your chimney, 5.5" flex would be a possibility and give you more to work with. Or, some liners can be dropped down, and then a slurry of insulation (poured) can fill the space around.

As Sean says, sometimes it is a matter of degree and interpretation. Personally, if the tiles are all in place (after the top ones are replaced), I would be comfortable (in my own home) with a uninsulated liner - of course, assuming that the local inspector agreed.

It might be that you have to take the chimney down a few feet to properly repair. Again, all of that should be determined by pros in the field and checked with your local official.

 

[log-on]

Thanks Webmaster, You are conferming my own beliefs. And yes I did not go into detail as to make post as short as possible, But the inspector recomended a new cap, My old cap had crumbled ( home made ,bad job) and there was no rain cap either. It never rains in the winter here, only snow. But that cresote stain might have been caused by water running down between clay liners and the outside.
Your right about the clay liners, word is, they can only survive about 800 degrees and then they start to crack. A slow burn chimney fire like I had can hit 3000 degrees.
As a note: there is no condeming chimney's around here, Only a fool would take a chance on burning his house down to find out if your insurance policy will cover you. The chimney was building code inspected when it was new and thats it as far as it goes. So that is why we hired a private WETT inspector. We do not have a sweep any more he retired. The local retailer/ installer will also come up and assess the situation for another $75 which they refund if you buy a stove from them. They will only install into a 100% CSA approved situation so I'm doing my background resurch first. I love wood heat but when it starts costing $$$ it stops making practical sence. I am optimistic about simpley getting my chimney safe again ( without major overhaul) and a new appliance and we will be back in business. I have more questions to ask but I better get back to work before I'm in trouble, thanks once again for help.

 

[elkimmeg]

Also cresote leaked from the morter in the attic.

there is a little more than just the top portion at issue here Its leaking in the attic, The liner is compromised into the attic space If it is coming threw the bricks and motar joints ,then even the brick are not providing containment any more. Plus being saturated with highly combustible creosote. Knowing this I know what is required. Can any one here confirm this creosote did not leak further down into the walls within the living space since they are concealed? .

I suggest one look into NFPA and see the rules after a chimney fire, what is required to bring it back up to NFPA 211 compliant.

That chimney either has to be fully restored to NFPA 211 Compliance or Ul 1777 Compliance might require a rebuild down to the point its integrity is restored, possibly below the attic

Instead of debating it here, you should be communicating with your fire dept and inspections office They are the ones that have the final say and approvals

 

[elkimmeg]

Also cresote leaked from the morter in the attic.

there is a little more than just the top portion at issue here Its leaking in the attic, The liner is compromised into the attic space If it is coming threw the bricks and motar joints ,then even the brick are not providing containment any more. Plus being saturated with highly combustible creosote. Knowing this I know what is required. Can any one here confirm this creosote did not leak further down into the walls within the living space since they are concealed? .

I suggest one look into NFPA and see the rules after a chimney fire, what is required to bring it back up to NFPA 211 compliant.

That chimney either has to be fully restored to NFPA 211 Compliance or Ul 1777 Compliance might require a rebuild down to the point its integrity is restored, possibly below the attic

Instead of debating it here, you should be communicating with your fire dept and inspections office They are the ones that have the final say and approvals. No one here can tell you that only a liner without insulation will suffice

 

[DriftWood]

any chimney that had a fire where cresote ooxzed right threw the bricks is not safe the integrity or lac there of has been compromised and exposed

And the fact you have had creosote problem alone is a reason to insulate a liner. for UL listed vent use one manufacture no mixed parts, follow the manufactures installation instructions, on my HomeSaver® UltraPro™ flexible stainless steel relining pipe the manual states

INSULATING THE LINER
Insulation is required when venting solid fuel appliances but is optional for wood pellet
appliances, oil appliances, and Category I LP or natural gas-burning appliances

(broken link removed to http://www.fireplace-chimneystore.com/f/Insallation_of_Ultra_Pro_Stainless_Liner.pdf)

[quote author="Webmaster]Based on that, a liner that is slightly oval that fits inside the existing tile (6") would do the job very safely. You won't need insulation because the chimney has clearance from wood. If you decide on a pellet stove, you will also be able to line it.

Main thing is to clean it out really well before lining it.[/quote]

Any one telling me I do not need to insulate HomeSaver® UltraPro™ flexible stainless steel relining pipe on a wood stove would be wrong . Read the installation instructions on your new stove and liner and follow them. Stuff said here should parallel it or it is bad advise and could be dangerous.

 

[woodconvert]

"I used the conditioner and managed to get the brush down. Full wheelbarrow !! of soot"

HO LEEEEE CRAPPP.

In my seven years of burning I "may" have a TOTAL of a wheelbarrow of soot removed. I think you are a damn lucky person in that you didn't burn the place down. Incredible.

Are you sure you are burning dry wood AND running a hot fire???.

 

[DriftWood]

"I used the conditioner and managed to get the brush down. Full wheelbarrow !! of soot"

HO LEEEEE CRAPPP.

In my seven years of burning I "may" have a TOTAL of a wheelbarrow of soot removed. I think you are a damn lucky person in that you didn't burn the place down. Incredible.

Are you sure you are burning dry wood AND running a hot fire???.

YA NO S***

 

[swestall]

Hey Folks, We forgot to mention that creating all that creosote indicates more attention to how you are burning is needed. The various bear stoves will burn fairly clean if the temps are kept up there (esp in a center chimney); too late for this chimney. It seems the consensus is reline the chimney. (I totally agree with that) So you have to do that with two things in mind, get the best integrity you can and install the liner that YOU can most easily maintain properly. That pretty much speaks to a quality stainless solution; oval if need be. (Yes of course comply with all codes). That might cost you a few extra $$ up front, but then again you will fall and stay asleep without fear of becoming the next crispy critter in the neighborhood. Pick a modern stove that makes you happy and has a nice burn with BTU's a little in excess of what you think you need. Burning wood isn't just about the money, it is primal.

 

[RonB]

You may want to consider a new poured liner. It solved my problem. I had a "minor" chimney fire but my 8X12 flues were cracked. Prior to pouring the new liner they busted out all the clay tiles. Poured in a new insulated 6 1/2" round flue. The UL rated concrete stabilized and reinforced the existing block/brick chimney. I also switched out an old 8"flue Vestal pre EPA stove to a new 6"flue Quad. Insurance covered the major part of the re-line job. If the custom made ovalized is going to be pricey an way you may want to consider a poured liner.

 

[log-on]

[. Burning wood isn't just about the money, it is primal.[/quote]

Thats it! thats why I won't give up without a fight..Pellet stoves bug me because I can't walk outside and cut down a cord of pellets,,,I love getting my firewood. A full woodshed is like being rich! I would agree that a liner might be the only solution but I for-see a big problem running a brush down 36' of 6" pipe as I turn 60! .
I truly believe that most of the chimney is still very safe just the top 6' is dangerous because I can't see it!! The other 30' is very visible ( in the house) and looks just fine. The creosote stain was at about 28' up in the top floor " attic" living area. It has since disappeared so I agree with webmaster that it might have been caused by water seeping down,, I have been burning small fires to use this conditioner which seems to be working, I will run the brush down it again and then,,Any body every drop a camera down ?? My daughter thinks we should make a video,, Reminds me of the colonoscomy I had once.

 

[jtp10181]

Get a new insert.
Get Simpson Duraliner Oval Rigid Pipe, double wall, pre-insulated. 4-3/4" on the skinny side. Should fit in a 8x12 flue no problem.

 

[struggle]

I last year found after overhauling my Vigilant woodstove (thanks Elk and all that helped on that) that it only exposed an even bigger problem with my chimney. Mine is on an exterior wall and after the Vigilant stove was rebuilt and put back into service it worked so well and lowered chimney temps to the point I became a creosote factory.

Then one day starting a fire in the morning the chimney fire took off. It was fast and cleaned out the whole chimney. I could see I had one cracked tile at the bottom and am certain many others in the chase. After the fire I went up on the roof and found stuff blew out of the cap and am lucky that this burning creosote did not start my roof on fire top down. My chimney is completely concrete enclosed and has generous distance from any wood framing so when it was on fire I just let burn itself out and never again did I burn it until it was lined. The chimney fire did me a favor as it cleaned the whole thing out perfect.

I lined it with a 5.5" flex liner unisulated into the existing 8X8 clay tile lined chimney. I was able to make two turns as well into my basement wall (not without the help of a someone pulling it as I was on top pushing it)

In this process I Ebayed the Vigilant and bought a HearthstoneMansfield Soapstone (new). I burned from end of January into March and brushed the liner at the end of last years burning season and only got enough dust out of it to fill a pop can. Prior to this liner I would have filled a five gallon bucket almost.

My advise would be to reline the chimney if structaully sound and buy a new quality stove latest EPA model. I have a family in my home and I cannot imagine using something like you have mentioned and being able to sleep at night with the potential you have for a complete house fire.

I have seen mention of using a conditioner. Are you talking about creosote stuff you pour on a fire to clean the creostote out. If so that is like buying a can of engine fix for an oil burning car engine. It will not work. I probably boosted that companies stock prior to the new stove using that powder crap that you put a scoop or two on a fire to clean your chimney. Pure snake oil in my mind.

I do know that my stove is supposed to be on a 6" chimney and called Hearthstone and they seemed optimistic about it working but would not say for sure it would work well.

My chimney drafts so well I had to install a dampner to slow it down. 24 of liner and 4' from thimble to stove.

I spent just over $3K last year to make my set up work properly but am sure if I had to pay a gas bill it would exceed that in two years if I were to heat my house like this stove does.

This is not an area to be a chisel monkey if you want to burn wood.

The new EPA stove for me is a dream to operate compared to the Vigilant.

And being able to sleep at night is priceless when I have a wife and two children in my house. Safety needs to be #1

 

[log-on]

Thanks Struggle, good convincing reply, o not worry I am not using the stove other than to burn the conditioner which believe it or not did work, It does not clean your chimney or even claim to, But it loosens the creosote. I needed to clean the chimney to see whats going on and even to get a liner down the creosote had to go. So I'm in the process of getting as much gunk off the liner as possible. I like your pick of the soapstone stove, My daughter went through 2 stoves before purchasing one, It was pricey ( $3400 ) but performed very well. The first stove they bought was a Vermont Castings( $1500) and the dealer sold them a model based on the square footage of the house. It barley heated the basement. It only held a fire for about 4 hours too. Second stove was an old Valley Comfort ( free from a friend) it roasted them out of the house and burned for a good 16 hours but cranked out to much creosote. My house is similar to theirs , 3 stories and 800 Sq per floor so I was thinking the same. Thats why I need to keep the cost of fixing chimney within reason as the stove is going t be expensive.

 

[struggle]

It for sure is a pay me now or pay me later situation you are in.

All that I have learned from this site actually makes me want to build a new house to so I could build the perfect set up for wood heating but it is most economical to stay put.

We paid $2,600 with tax for the Mansfield and $513 for the liner. I did buy one more 90 heavier guage degree elbow that was a welded one (not cheap box store type) but do not recall cost.

The Mansfield is to much for our home but the long clean burn times where in line for what we desired. I really liked the woodstock model fireveiw but was just not sure if it would keep the house as warm as dear wife likes it.

I burned two days this week the Mansfield and had to shut it down as it was overheating the house so we are using the upstairs fireplace until it really gets cold.

Best luck to your set up.