Running stove with no window

[hyperion]

We have an old VC Defiant from 1979 and it has no windows to monitor the burn with. We do have a stove top themometer which we set on the hottest part of the stove top. I try to maintain the temperature at about 400-450. Does that temperature guarantee a clean burn? Opening the door to look at it defeats the purpose, since the way the defiant loading door is designed, I have to open the damper first before I can open the door and by then the flame would be roaring up no matter what.

What do owners of old stoves do?

 

[Fsappo]

Use the thermometer like you are now and just get used to the burn times

 

[Bobbin]

I have a Woodstock Classic in my studio. It's solid soapstone and there is no "window" to monitor the fire. I use the stovetop thermometer (a Condar) and my own "feel" for how the fire in the stove is developing. I'm pretty new to this "blind" stove but my ears and the stovetop thermometer are pretty much fool-proof.

I read the thermometer in the morning to get a feel for the temperature inside the stove. I disengage the cat. combustor, open the draft controls and give it a few seconds to get enough draft to exhaust any residual smoke in the firebox. I then crack the door.

I get any tinder I feel may be required (to jump start the residual coals) ready to go along with the splits I plan to add for the next fire.

I add the tinder (if required) and splits. I leave the stove door cracked (usually along with a window to ensure good combustion draft in a space that can be "tight") until the Condar registers 250-300 degrees and I hear the fire "doin' its thing".

Close the door, engage combustor, and damp down the stove for an efficient burn. Interestingly, I find I rely less on the window in the Fireview now than I used to. I watch the thermometer and use my ears.

 

[hyperion]

We are very inexperienced stove burners (only had a fireplace before and the VC Defiant came with the new house), that we can not put the fear away that all this time we have been smoldering at 400F and setting ourselves up for a chimney fire. And the burning desire to open the door and check.. argh.

Are we just being paranoid?

 

[begreen]

Give yourself a little time and some more information.

0) Read the manual for how to burn in this stove and at what temps. 400 is a bit cool, but not terribly if the wood is nice and dry.

1) Knowing the flue temps will increase confidence. Creosote is produced by the flue gases cooling to the point where they condense inside the pipe. Whether this happens and how soon depends on the chimney (interior or exterior) outside temps and how hot the flue gases are.

2) Burning good dry wood will help prevent a boatload of woe and problems

3) When burning with the bypass damper engaged, you should be able to look at the top of the flue outside and see no smoke. A little wispy white smoke on a cold day is ok, that is most likely steam and not smoke. But there should be no black or dark grey smoke. If there is, try giving the fire a bit more air by opening up the thermostatic damper a little bit.

4) Get the chimney cleaned if you have burned a cord of wood. Ask the sweep how you are doing.

 

[Bobbin]

A stovetop thrermometer is tantamount to a white cane or a seeing eye dog for those whose stoves lack a "window". Our stoves don't have flue dampers or thermometers, so the stove top thermometer is the only reliable gauge I have for the stoves.

Hyperion, make sure you've had the chimney swept and then put a thermometer on the stovestop and if warranted by your particular stove put one on the flue pipe as well. This is a fabulous site to use to get "up to speed" with respect to operating a stove effectively and safely. No question is "stupid" when you're talking about how to keep your home cozy and SAFE with a wood stove!

Our stove is a catalytic stove and because of that much of the way I operate it is not completely in line with how non-cat. stoves operate.

 

[hyperion]

BeGreen and Bobbin, thanks for your help.

The chimney was swept very recently (late November) by an experienced professional. Wood being burnt is very dry, since we burn only bio-bricks or envi-bricks, as we gave up trying to find true "seasoned" wood for the year. Chimney draws fine, smoke rarely if ever comes out with doors open.

However, there is definitely smoke coming out of the chimney, and quite a bit of it. I don't even have to look, I can smell it the minute I step outside. Which is why I have this nagging feeling that the fire is smoldering.

In general, the stove seems to have some trouble keeping a good fire lit, even with the primary air fully open. Whenever I open the doors the flames roar up, which is a sure sign of the fire being oxygen-starved. There are times that I open the doors to red glowing bricks but no flame (temperature still at 400). I am suspecting airflow issues, but don't know what it could be.

 

[begreen]

Hyperion, smelling a fire burning and seeing smoke are two different things. On low pressure days, I can smell our stove burning without seeing any smoke. You are using a very clean fuel, it is very unlikely that you are getting creosote build up based on the description.

How many bricks are you loading the stove up with and at what point are you closing the bypass damper? What temp? Is the secondary air port on the lower side open (little side flap covering about a 3/4" hole)?

Also, can you describe the flue setup on the stove, from the stove up to the flue cap?

 

[hyperion]

BeGreen, on cold start we we start with 2 bricks (the larger envi-blocks) and once they catch we add two more. Bypass damper is closed around 500F and secondary is fully open.

flue goes straight up to the ceiling cap. I am attaching a picture.

 

[hyperion]

Ok, an entirely new problem was discovered over Christmas. As I said, we suspected that we have air flow problems in the VC Defiant (i.e. fire seems to smolder as soon as we close the loading door, even with the primary air fully open. Leaving the bypass damper up doesn't seem to help much either). Up till now we are suspecting maybe primary air inlet has blockage.

During Christmas, we had guests who would like to see the fire and since we have no window on the Defiant and we figured that the stove could use more air to burn better so we decided to put up the spark screen, open the front doors and run it fireplace mode. We thought that should solve any and all air flow problems. Surprise surprise, we couldn't keep the fire lit even in that set up (bypass damper up, secondary air closed, primary air fully open)!

What could be the problem?

 

[pen]

I'll go so far as to say that 19/20 times this question / problem comes up it's because the wood is not seasoned enough.

However, in your case, I have never heard of unseasoned bio bricks!

I'd say perhaps the cold fire is a result of the way you are building your fire? In other words, it's the result of the placement of the bricks and the number in the stove.

pen

 

[begreen]

For starters, I'd get up on the roof and check the flue cap for clogging or at least take a good set of binoculars and examine it. It would help to know more about the flue. Is this 6 or 8", how tall is it from stove to flue cap? And last, try opening a nearby window or door and see if the stove perks up and has stronger flame.

 

[hareball]

I go alot by sounds and the magnet thermometer on my pipe.
I can hear air rushing through my dampers as well can here the blazing splits inside.
If I run with a fire screen I get a very mellow fire that sometimes looks as if it might burn itself right out but if I pull the screen off and close a door it creates alot of draw and things flame up in a hurry.

 

[Rich L]

I have a Woodstock Classic in my studio. It's solid soapstone and there is no "window" to monitor the fire. I use the stovetop thermometer (a Condar) and my own "feel" for how the fire in the stove is developing. I'm pretty new to this "blind" stove but my ears and the stovetop thermometer are pretty much fool-proof.

I read the thermometer in the morning to get a feel for the temperature inside the stove. I disengage the cat. combustor, open the draft controls and give it a few seconds to get enough draft to exhaust any residual smoke in the firebox. I then crack the door.

I get any tinder I feel may be required (to jump start the residual coals) ready to go along with the splits I plan to add for the next fire.

I add the tinder (if required) and splits. I leave the stove door cracked (usually along with a window to ensure good combustion draft in a space that can be "tight") until the Condar registers 250-300 degrees and I hear the fire "doin' its thing".

Close the door, engage combustor, and damp down the stove for an efficient burn. Interestingly, I find I rely less on the window in the Fireview now than I used to. I watch the thermometer and use my ears.

I too have the Classic.The stove top thermometer from Woodstock gives you the Bypass and Cat. zones which is a good guage to knowing when to add more wood.I also have a Ecofan.When the spins slows you know your stove needs refueling.
Bobbin what made you choose the windowless Classic over the windowed models?

 

[Bobbin]

Rick, I have always preferred the Classic to the Fireview, although that is the stove we have in our home. The Fireview was the stove the husband wanted and since getting him to even think about something other than a yard sale special was a challenge I was not about to question his choice! It's handsome, too, no doubt about it.

But my own aesthetic tends toward the beautiful tile stoves seen in the palaces of Scandinavia, Russia, and northern Europe. I like the size and proportions of the Woodstock Classic. And I think the careful attention to detail on the trim castings and the legs showcases the beauty of the soapstone perfectly. For me, viewing the dancing flames is not important. It is subtle, elegant, and sophisticated and perfect in a space that is intended to be bright, clean, and stylish. First time visitors are often surprised that it's actually a woodstove.

Had Woodstock made a something similar in the size range of the either the Keystone or Palladian I would have considered that as the Classic is a bit more stove than the space really requires. It's nice to know someone else who has a Classic, most people are surprised I didn't jump for another Fireview.

 

[Rich L]

Rick, I have always preferred the Classic to the Fireview, although that is the stove we have in our home. The Fireview was the stove the husband wanted and since getting him to even think about something other than a yard sale special was a challenge I was not about to question his choice! It's handsome, too, no doubt about it.

But my own aesthetic tends toward the beautiful tile stoves seen in the palaces of Scandinavia, Russia, and northern Europe. I like the size and proportions of the Woodstock Classic. And I think the careful attention to detail on the trim castings and the legs showcases the beauty of the soapstone perfectly. For me, viewing the dancing flames is not important. It is subtle, elegant, and sophisticated and perfect in a space that is intended to be bright, clean, and stylish. First time visitors are often surprised that it's actually a woodstove.

Had Woodstock made a something similar in the size range of the either the Keystone or Palladian I would have considered that as the Classic is a bit more stove than the space really requires. It's nice to know someone else who has a Classic, most people are surprised I didn't jump for another Fireview.

Wow,that was a great explanation.Myself I was looking for more heat and heat times thinking that with the additional soapstone it would mean more heat and heat times.However I whole heartedly agree with all that you stated.

 

[hyperion]

I'll go so far as to say that 19/20 times this question / problem comes up it's because the wood is not seasoned enough.

However, in your case, I have never heard of unseasoned bio bricks!

I'd say perhaps the cold fire is a result of the way you are building your fire? In other words, it's the result of the placement of the bricks and the number in the stove.

pen

I am not sure what's the correct way of placing the bricks. On cold start, I simply lay down two bricks (the large envi-blocks which measures 10.5"x10.5"x4") east-west with an inch or two in between where I put kindling. Once the two catch, I lay two more on top north-south, sort of in a log-cabin construction. The Defiant is large and can definitely fit a lot more, but I am nervous about cramming the firebox with the envi-blocks since they burn really hot.

 

[hyperion]

For starters, I'd get up on the roof and check the flue cap for clogging or at least take a good set of binoculars and examine it. It would help to know more about the flue. Is this 6 or 8", how tall is it from stove to flue cap? And last, try opening a nearby window or door and see if the stove perks up and has stronger flame.

Okay, waiting for the weather to get better (no rain or snow) before I get on the roof, but will do the inspection as soon as possible.

Flue is 8", and about 7.5-8 feet from stove top to the cap depending on where you measure (sloped ceiling).

 

[fraxinus]

If you find no obstruction in your chimney, here's another possibility. Fine ash can clog the area between the fireback and the rear casting in the Defiant. This blocks air from circulating the way it's supposed to, especially when the damper is closed. If you look at a diagram of the old Defiants (available at www.vermontcastings.com under Defiant Rebuild), you'll see that there is also a tube formed of wire mesh and stove cement which is supposed to be between the fireback and rear casting; this arrangement deteriorates over time and is easily damaged. The stove operates without it, but not as efficiently as with. If you remove the stove pipe, open the damper and look straight down on the left, you should be able to see if ash has accumulated enough to be clogging things up.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

As you can tell by looking at my signature line, we have burned wood for a few years. We've also had a few different stoves. We got our first stove thermometer in 2007 when we installed the Fireview. I like it.

Going back to the older stoves what did we use? If we started getting cool, we'd turn the stove up a bit. If we still were cool, we'd put some wood in. End of story.

The biggest key is still the fuel you burn. Put poor gas in a car and see how well that car runs then....but don't blame the car; it's the fuel. The same thing happens with wood heat. Don't blame a stove when it is the fuel to blame. Make sure you have good fuel and your worries are almost over. You can even damper down your stove a lot and still crank out serious heat if your wood is dry.

This is not saying that someone can go out and buy dry wood either. Every wood burner has to learn what dry wood really is. They also need to learn the different wood types for their area; how best to burn that wood; how much heat can they expect from that wood, etc.

Usually 400-450 should make a clean burning fire.