Some changes for next year

[chuck172]

Anyone have any changes to be made by next years heating season? With just about 1 year burning experience, I have a few thoughts.
My current piping has no provisions for feeding both the storage and the heating zones at the same time. I'm really impressed by Tarms drawing PT1 which uses a diverter valve, K6440A3, to divert some hot boiler water to storage while feeding the zones at the same time.
I'm going to replace the coin vent with an auto vent and a ball valve at the top of the boiler. That might resolve the knocking I sometimes get.
The biggest improvement I'm considering is adding another 500 gallon tank to storage. I'm now using 1- 500 gallon propane tank, it works well, but there are pluses to adding more storage. I've been really trying to make do with the single tank, and my mind isn't made up yet. I'd hate to go through the hassel of stacking another tank. My wife is dead set against loosing anymore basement space.
I'd also like to simplify my entire heating project. If something were to happen to me, this house would be using oil and the old wood stove. I'm it's only master.
“From intense complexities, intense simplicities emerge.” - Winston Churchill

 

[WoodNotOil]

I'm going from series to parallel over the summer. I hear you on being the only master. I am getting closer to a simple system though...

 

[stee6043]

My primary plan is to add a side-arm to my DHW heater. Since I have the house heating under control it's time to stop paying for hot water in the shower. I want the gas man to realllllyyyy feel the pain.

 

[leaddog]

I made my big changes last fall. I put in well insulated lines from my boiler to storage. Went from 1200gal open tank storage to 2000gal pressureized. Put the storage next to my house instead of 100ft away with the boiler. Added a modulating valve to control the temp leaving the boiler. Now I just have to finish things up by adding temp sensers and neater access to the controls. I also want to add some staple up radiant in the house.
leaddog

 

[chuck172]

If I could be convinced that doubling my storage from 500 to 1000 gallons would increase efficiency, I'd do it. I'm retired and I don't mind tending the boiler, the only plus I can see is the convenience of one long burn, vs. two smaller burns:
8 hr. continuose burn=1000 gallon storage heated to 190*
4hr. burn= 500 gallons storage heated to 190*

Do the 4hr. burn twice, and achieve the same results.

 

[Nofossil]

If I could be convinced that doubling my storage from 500 to 1000 gallons would increase efficiency, I'd do it. I'm retired and I don't mind tending the boiler, the only plus I can see is the convenience of one long burn, vs. two smaller burns:
8 hr. continuose burn=1000 gallon storage heated to 190*
4hr. burn= 500 gallons storage heated to 190*

Do the 4hr. burn twice, and achieve the same results.

From my point of view, there are three big benefits and one small one:

1) Building half as many fires
2) Going twice as long before you have to build a fire again
3) Being able to skip more days

Small benefit - I suspect that one 8 hour fire is more efficient than two 4 hour fires.

 

[in hot water]

I'm not convinced more storage is ALWAYS better. It's different for every installation. If you are at home and able to maintain the firing of the (properly sized) boiler to the ever-changing load, then really just enough buffer to get through the night would be fine.

If you want long non burn times, or have an oversized boiler, certainly more storage can help.

More storage does = more standby loss, especially if is located outside the heated space. Also additional piping and insulation costs.

hr

 

[Jim Post]

More storage does = more standby loss, especially if is located outside the heated space. Also additional piping and insulation costs.

hr

Worth repeating that one. Cheapest storage is keeping the heat in the wood till the structure needs it. Some guy that went by the name Hot Rod pointed that out to me several years ago.

I'm planning some piping tweaks to get to a full primary/secondary layout and replacing the old B&G;series 100 with a Grundfos 15-58 to reduce my electric load. I also plan on playing with solar hot water heating with old water heater tank I acquired.

jp

 

[Piker]

I hope to get 1000 gallons of pressurized storage in place (2-500 gal tanks). I demo the boiler all summer long, and it would be nice to be able to store as much of that heat as possible for domestic hot water.... not to mention all the other added benefits of thermal storage. The only problem I see, is that I don't really have enough radiation in the house to use the cooler water from storage when it gets really cold out... and not sure I can swing the extra dough for the rest of the radiant floor stuff.

I am also thinking about preheating the air in our clothes dryer. I have read about a few people doing this with some success... We'll see what happens.

Standby losses are definitely a concern for storage. I hope to have a contractor spray foam the tanks. I will build a half-hexagon box around the tanks, spray foam up almost to the very top, but leave the fittings open. I will then put regular fiberglass ontop, with a blue-board lid. Going to try and get a minumum of 8" of spray foam everywhere. Which means there will be much more in the corners of the hex... which will be expensive. SHoudl work pretty well though since the spray foam has quite a bit higher R-value compared to fiberglass for the same thickness.

cheers

 

[Birdman]

hhhhmmmm... improvements for next year?... teach my 15 year old boy how to feed the Tarm, make my house better insulated( drafty log cabin), create better space to store my 5 cord of wood in basement to more easily feed Tarm ( first year... and only 5 cord.. temps in house 62-70 even with -27 below!.. and of course all the hot water for 5!), get a flue gas therm, and of course.... if i win lotto... change to primary/secondary instead of series ( which i have now) and add storage... oh and maybe a little bed next to the Tarm?... so wife and I can cuddle up in basement and she won't get jealous of the tarm? ooohhh and i want to get some chain and make them turbulators!

 

[barnartist]

Like Leaddog, I want to go to 100% radiant heat. I have 50% now, and it takes way less energy out of my storage than my forced air does. I think if I add one more 500 gal tank, I may be able to fire up only once a day during the coldest days.

I'd like to purchase the newer EKO controller too.

Watch Marissa Miller stack my wood pile.

 

[pybyr]

I hope to get 1000 gallons of pressurized storage in place (2-500 gal tanks). I demo the boiler all summer long, and it would be nice to be able to store as much of that heat as possible for domestic hot water.... not to mention all the other added benefits of thermal storage. The only problem I see, is that I don't really have enough radiation in the house to use the cooler water from storage when it gets really cold out... and not sure I can swing the extra dough for the rest of the radiant floor stuff.

I am also thinking about preheating the air in our clothes dryer. I have read about a few people doing this with some success... We'll see what happens.

Standby losses are definitely a concern for storage. I hope to have a contractor spray foam the tanks. I will build a half-hexagon box around the tanks, spray foam up almost to the very top, but leave the fittings open. I will then put regular fiberglass ontop, with a blue-board lid. Going to try and get a minumum of 8" of spray foam everywhere. Which means there will be much more in the corners of the hex... which will be expensive. SHoudl work pretty well though since the spray foam has quite a bit higher R-value compared to fiberglass for the same thickness.

cheers

Piker- instead of the uber-expensive foam, consider dense pack cellulose, which you could definitely do yourself, will insulate very well, and will cost vastly less. Plus, if you ever need to check or change something, your tanks won't be entombed in a giant monolithic foam sarcophagus. Take a look here for some past discussions and suggestions:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/23317/

 

[chuck172]

Birdman, You sound like you're sending a wish list to Santa.

 

[Piker]

I hope to get 1000 gallons of pressurized storage in place (2-500 gal tanks). I demo the boiler all summer long, and it would be nice to be able to store as much of that heat as possible for domestic hot water.... not to mention all the other added benefits of thermal storage. The only problem I see, is that I don't really have enough radiation in the house to use the cooler water from storage when it gets really cold out... and not sure I can swing the extra dough for the rest of the radiant floor stuff.

I am also thinking about preheating the air in our clothes dryer. I have read about a few people doing this with some success... We'll see what happens.

Standby losses are definitely a concern for storage. I hope to have a contractor spray foam the tanks. I will build a half-hexagon box around the tanks, spray foam up almost to the very top, but leave the fittings open. I will then put regular fiberglass ontop, with a blue-board lid. Going to try and get a minumum of 8" of spray foam everywhere. Which means there will be much more in the corners of the hex... which will be expensive. SHoudl work pretty well though since the spray foam has quite a bit higher R-value compared to fiberglass for the same thickness.

cheers

Piker- instead of the uber-expensive foam, consider dense pack cellulose, which you could definitely do yourself, will insulate very well, and will cost vastly less. Plus, if you ever need to check or change something, your tanks won't be entombed in a giant monolithic foam sarcophagus. Take a look here for some past discussions and suggestions:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/23317/

that would definitely be cheaper. I worry that as the stuff settles, the insulation value would decrease. Although, you could use alot more of blow in stuff for the same money. I will look into that for sure. Preliminary costs for the foam kind of blew my socks off.

cheers.

 

[Nofossil]

My project list is getting longer rather than shorter. In no particular order:

- Install the lambda sensor that I bought last year
- Install external primary air adjustments to the EKO
- Finish installation of my propane tankless backup heater
- Add the main floor radiant zone
- Upgrade my controller to the new NFCS design
- Add variable speed fan control capability to my controller

That having been said, the system has been working beautifully, with no real problems. Build fires when it's convenient, one or two refills in an evening, and life is good.

 

[pybyr]

cheers

Piker- instead of the uber-expensive foam, consider dense pack cellulose,

that would definitely be cheaper. I worry that as the stuff settles, the insulation value would decrease.

cheers.

If you install it properly and get it to proper density, it should not settle much. and if it does, the parts that settle will not lose any R-Value--- gravity/ settle won't pack it to any additional degree that would decrease R-value. Best of all is that worst-case, if you experience some settling, you just need to top it off. Several other bonuses is that the material is inherently fire retardant, which foam is not, and it's basically a low-input-energy recycled material. I will be using polyiso boards around my tank, but only because I got hold of a huge amount of used intact 4" thick polyiso for free, and it makes sense with my rectangular profile tank.

 

[Eric Johnson]

I want to get the external primary air supply adjustment done.

I'd like to finally get around to hooking up my storage.

I'm intrigued by barnartist's claim that insulating the bottom of the boiler is a good idea. I can't think of why not, since there's plenty of refractory between the steel and the heat down there.

A couple other piping changes that I think would help efficiency.

And finally, getting around to pulling the turbulators and brushing out the tubes--one more thing I've been putting off.

Overall, the second season has been even better than the first, which was pretty darn good. I think installing the new controller made the biggest difference. I wish you could program the control nob to run other functions, i.e., the fan modulation. I never change my max temp setting, but I'm changing the fan speed all the time in response to conditions. It would be much easier to do with a dial than going through the menu--though I'm getting used to doing that even first thing in the morning before my first cup of coffee.

 

[Piker]

Pybyr,

I think I like the idea. I haven't done all my research yet, but it sounds like a feasable plan that is both cost effective and user friendly in the event a sensor at the bottom of a tank needs replaced. I think I am going to go ahead and start preparation of the crawl space for the tanks asap. It's a scary old dungeon over there, and it's going to require a bit of elbow grease just to get the tanks in.

cheers

 

[sdrobertson]

I'm intrigued by barnartist's claim that insulating the bottom of the boiler is a good idea. I can't think of why not, since there's plenty of refractory between the steel and the heat down there.

I insulated my bottom (of the boiler) because when my father was running the first year, we shot the bottom with a infrared thermometer and it showed allot of heat coming off the bottom. I figured if I could keep the heat in the boiler, it would be cheap help.

 

[Jeff S]

My decision to burn wood came late last fall when I received my pre-buy price from my propane distributor.I was able to install a conventional 1980's era boiler in my detached garage and pipe that to my forced air furnace 50 ft away with a heat exchanger,this was all done with help from you on this forum because I knew nothing about boilers at the time.all though this unit is not the most efficient it has allowed me to gain an education on this type of heat and a starting point,enough to take the deeper plunge.I have all ready purchased an EKO 25 to install this summer ,found some used propane tanks to use as storage and have been studying radiant heat options which I will probably install in my exterior walls as suggested in the 2nd edition of John Siegenthaler's book.Also been cutting wood every chance I get,when this heating season is over I will probably have the next 2 years of wood cut split and stacked.

Thanks to all on this Forum that have shared your experiences,I tune in everyday to see if I can pick up an extra "Golden Nugget"

 

[chuck172]

sdrobertson, thanks for the idea of insulating the boiler bottom. The insulation on the bottom of my boiler has been falling apart, (my fault), I'll add that to my list.

 

[jebatty]

Now finishing my second heating season and I was thinking it would have been good to have been closer to "right" in my installation from the git-go, but then I would have missed all the fun and learning that has taken place over these past two years, plus missed the comradery on this forum. Treasurers.

Best successes:
1) Getting a gasifier. I had prior experience with an OWB (10+ years old), and the sheer joy of using so little wood, saving so much time and effort in putting up a wood supply, and killing the smoke dragon all are priceless.

2) Boiler and storage tank install in the heated space. I have insulation, but the otherwise hyper insulation is not needed. Heat loss simply provides heat that otherwise would have been needed by other radiant fixtures, plumbing and pumps. And no underground supply/return lines at high cost. If there is anyway to swing this, it would be my number one suggestion (other than getting a gasifier to begin with).

3) Storage from the start. I began with 3 x 275 used fuel oil tanks, open storage, and scrapped those and added the 1000 gal LP tank pressurized storage before the end of season #1. On our coldest winter days (-36F), I never had to burn more than 2 full loads in a day, and most winter days were 1 load/day. Already I am getting one load every other day some days (lo's in the 0-teens and hi's 20-30F), and soon it will be 1 load every 2-3 days.

Biggest mistakes (all relating to hydronic/plumbing ignorance):
4) Undersized piping between the boiler and the tank and undersized plate hx; not understanding relationship between pipe size, gpm, flow rates, head, pressure drop, pump sizing, etc.
5) Not putting in isolation valves.

Yet to do:
6) Eliminate plate hx and pipe directly between boiler and tank.
7) Install an electric backup tankless heater to insure no freeze-up if we take an extended winter trip.
8) Analyze whether attempting to achieve greater stratification in my horizontal tank (19' x 39") is worth the effort. The idle tank will stabilize at about 20F stratification, but it doesn't take much pumping to mix the tank to a pretty even temp throughout. Attempting to achieve greater hydraulic separation might be interesting but success may be marginal.
9) Experiment with more measurement and data development and with electronic controls.

And thanks ... this forum had not been around long before I found it, and the advice and encouragement of all of you was most timely and has been above and beyond what a person might expect from anyone. I know I could not have otherwise achieved the results so far realized without a lot more pain, error, and cost, if they could have been achieved at all.

A request ... although I'm in MN and many of your are Nordeasters, I think a union or reunion event, with a couple of site tours, would really be fun. My wife and I would consider joining such a tour. For us, early Fall (mid Sept to early Oct) is an ideal time for a road trip.

 

[sweetheat]

I'm still in the learning curve, but I do envy people who have storage tanks that are pressurized. To be able to store 200 degree water temps seems very efficient. The EPDM I hope will last for 10 to 15 years, when it goes I'll replace with pressurized storage. sweetheat

 

[barnartist]

I like the tour idea. We are so spread out though...

 

[chuck172]

In this day and age we can have electronic internet tours by posting pictures.