Some questions, and hopefully get some advice

[Vanceone]

Great forum, everyone! I've been lurking for about a week, researching, and trying to find out stuff. It's been a rapid education, to say the least.

My parents are building a home, 7000 feet up in central utah--basically, mountain territory. There's no natural gas, so it's propane, or stove heat. Propane's going at 2 dollars or more per gallon, and I doubt it's going down anytime soon. They got a propane furnance bid at ten grand, including ductwork. My mom wants to be energy independant, so they are putting in a stove in the basement, and one on the main floor. It's a large home, about 4600 square feet or so. 1800 on the basement and main floor, then a thousand square foot loft. The layout is open--there's a prow front, large open room in the prow(that goes clear up to the top of the house--and the room will be big, about 900 square feet), then two wings with the bedrooms. The loft is completely open, so a stove in the prow room on the main floor can heat the loft and (most likely) the main floor.

The idea is to save the ten grand, if we can, and not install the propane furnace at all. Since it's new construction, it will be very well insulated, and we'll put in ceiling fans in the prow room. The prow front is basically two stories high, and has lots of windows--i.e. lots and lots of passive solar heat. Based on a previous home, when the suns out, there's no need for heat at all.

We have an old fisher wood stove, but want to replace it with something. Now, here's what we've considered so far: our dealer is pushing a "Blaze King" stove, but he sells quadrafires as well (and pellet stoves). We want a stove in the basement that can heat without power, if necessary. My mom wants to be able to cook on it, too, so no insert down there.

We are open to many things. In terms of fuel supply, it seems corn is really expensive and there's not much of it in our area. On the other hand, the local IFA country store sells pellets--4 dollars a bag. I suppose that's expensive, but compared to propane at 2 dollars or more... plus all the install, tank rental, etc--saving ten grand is a LOT of pellets. :D

As for wood, we are leaning towards a non-cat stove, because we have a free supply of plywood and things, and I'm told that that stuff will plug a cat stove. Right now, we are looking at the Quadrafire 5700--is that a good stove or not? And are there others we should look at? It will need to have the capacity to heat the house by itself in case of no power. (our power co. is not the greatest)

There's a ready supply of coal (several coal mines nearby), but I've not seen much on coal/wood stoves. My mom wants to be able to burn wood in the basement (we can always find a tree to chop down, if need be)--but if we got a good coal/wood stove, that would be great. The only Coal/wood stove I know of is by Harman, the TLC-2000. Anyone know much about that stove?

As for pellets on the main floor--I was looking at the Quad Mt. Vernon. From what I gather, it's had issues--but those issues are mostly with corn burning? Will it heat the upper two floors? I like the programmable thermostat, and the main Mt. Vernon competitor I've seen mentioned is a Harman, which doesn't have that. Are there others? Our dealer sells St. Croix stoves, and I haven't heard anything about them. It would be nice to have a battery backup system, too.

The way I suspect the heating will work is this--if we have a good pellet stove, that will act as our furnace and kick on and off as needed--shutting down during sunny days altogether. The wood stove will be used most likely on weekends, or whenever my dad is home all day to stoke it (or I am, I suppose). I know that a stove in the basement is not really quick at heating up a house, but can't it maintain one fairly well?

If we got coal downstairs (It's too messy to use anywhere else), then we could just dump a bucket in the coal stove downstairs. And the pellet stove will stay off. Is there a good thread or something on the basics of coal stoves? Can they be adjusted or something to burn variable rates--kind of like a good pellet stove can?

I guess I'm looking at this: What options are best? Straight wood downstairs/pellet upstairs? Is there a way we can burn coal, yet keep the wood option? Is a Quad 5700 a really decent choice, and how about a Mt. Vernon for pellet only--or is that overkill, if we never really plan on burning a corn or wheat or suchlike mix? If so, what other good stoves are out there?

Oh, and is electric baseboard heat the way to go in case of a journey, to keep the pipes from freezing?

Thanks for your great advice!

 

[Bob512]

I don't know where everyone is, american idol must be on. I'll give it a try, but i'm not as good as these pro's. I would put the mt. vernon in the center of the first floor. If pellets or corn is available at a decent price. That is a awesome stove and will give them some good heat. If there is any AC duct work in the home, I would tie in a wood furnace for back-up gravity heat if there is a power outage, If duct work is in the cellar. If they have pellets they can use them, or if they get a bunch of cord wood they can use it. There are a ton of options, see what msg, or elk say after american idol is over. ;-)

 

[jtp10181]

You CAN NOT burn plywood or anything of that nature in ANY Quadrafire stove, or probably any modern stove for that matter. All wood QUAD products I have seen you must burn well seasoned hard woods only. Some softer woods could be mixed but you cannot burn pine or any "junk" wood like 2x4's plywood, trim, etc...

If you plan on burning good wood I think a quad stove would be a nice investment. I believe both the step top and the millennium series of their stoves allow you to cook on them, although you might scratch off the paint job on top. I think the "ISLE ROYAL" also has a stainless steel cook top lid on it.

As for the Mt. Vernon AE... personally I have yet to tinker with one. We have a showroom model in Sierra Bronze (very slick color IMO) but its not vented yet. BTW the new MT Vernon with the crazy t-stat and the self cleaning pot is the "AE". The old Mt. Vernon was just another run of the mill pellet stove (except it was huge). Anyway... yeah they had some problems with it. From what I have heard that seems to be all fixed, and they pulled units back from dealers stock to repair them also. Burning strait pellets is always going to give you the best performance, corn and grain and other stuff is going to be a lot dirtier of a fuel and clog things up faster than manufactured pellets. That stove will throw out a lot of heat. Most people that I have worked with using pellet to heat their entire house go through around one bag a day. Your home sounds a little larger than what I've come across so you might go through more but you can make some simple calculations based on that.

You mentioned battery backup. Were you talking about the Mt Vernon? With the new AE you can buy a marine battery hookup kit so you can run the thing off a deep cycle marine battery. Most pellet stoves I know of use AC motors so this is not possible but with the AE they switched to DC batteries which not only last longer but allow it to run off a 12V battery.

 

[begreen]

Welcome to the forum Vance. This sounds like a big project. Are your folks approaching retirement age? How may people will normally live in this house?

The reason for the questions is that they have an alternative to downsize and go solar. This will save them money long into their retirement. If done well, the house heating will manage itself. There are lots of alternatives, but brute force heat into a large new building should be avoided. When building new there are much better options. If they are going to be living there full time, perhaps consider a soapstone stove or masonry heater.

Designed right, it won't cost a lot more, but will give them a lot more satisfaction and the knowledge that they are not contributing to the growing impact of human development. For sure, the price of heating is not going to decrease. Unless they are going to fell, split, stack and store a lot of cords of wood, by themselves, they could be building a white elephant. Instead I would suggest that they build with the intention of a self-sustaning building that is easy to manage well into retirement. Personally, I'd lop off a thousand feet or more, and put that money into higher quality design, insulation, systems and trim.

As to the electric heat backup, what are the local requirements? What does their insurance company require? Many won't insure a wood heat only domicile. Things to ponder upon.

 

[RonB]

I can't address all your concerns, but I will say that I think a lot of the Quadrafire 5700. I likely be installing one in my house to replace an older inefficient stove. The 5700 is one of the larger stoves I've seen available. It is a step top and your mom would like that if she needs to cook on it. I've also considered the 4300 step top but that may be small for your application. In general, I have heard nothing but positive comments about the Quad name and their wood stoves.

As far as pipes freezing when you leave on a trip--electric baseboard heat is probably costly to operate. You might consider a heat pump forced air furnace that draws its heat from well water. When I run mine it is fairly economical and includes AC for summer.

 

[restorer]

Welcome Vance, you will get all the information you need, just answer the questions. I have a couple, for local input. What town or location are your folks building in Central Utah? Makes a difference on the availability of good fire wood and options for using coal. The days of the smoking dragon coal burners are gone. There are stoves that are aesthetically pleasing and put out a ton of heat. The advantage is you will be near low sulfur coal, a real plus. Wood is iffy. Pellets may be an issue, unless you can haul in quantity and have a place to store. I can help with elevation and demand if you give a reasonable location. Good luck in your choices.

 

[Gooserider]

I would agree with the earlier comments on trying to go for as much self sustaning solar as possible - wood is nice fuel, but the less of it you have to burn the better.

Pellets have a lot of convenience advantages, but have a very high operating cost, you will be looking at the same general price ballpark as propane. You can save some by buying large quantities in advance, but it's still about the most expensive form of wood heat there is.

I'd also be very leery of a house built with no backup heating system, whether it's electric or LP - stuff happens, you won't always be around to feed the stoves, and even the best pellet stoves will only hold about 24 hours worth of fuel, nor will you get much more than that out of any wood burning furnace, etc.

I would look hard at a masonry heater - they are expensive, but very efficient in an open plan home, and since you are building from scratch this is about the best time to put one in. They can also be used as thermal storage masses for solar heat systems, and supposedly can even have a propane burner put in to make them function as backup heat.

As mentioned, a modern stove should NOT be used to burn plywood - in general plywood, particle board, and PT lumber shouldn't be burned by any means as they can put out noxious smoke and fumes. Stoves shouldn't be used to burn other sorts of lumber either, although some folks do - the trick is that lumber tends to be much drier than normal firewood so it tends to over fire - If you do burn lumber keep the fires small, and try to mix it with regular firewood. (Note that any modern stove maker will void your warrantee if you admit to burning lumber or anything other than normal seasoned cordwood)

Coal has different draft requirements than a wood stove, and few if any stoves are really going to be good at burning both. There can also be issues with your chimney if you mix the two on a regular basis, it can lead to the formation of acids that will attack your chimney materials. However some people do burn wood in coal stoves, and seem to get away with it. You can't really burn coal in a wood stove however.

Gooserider

 

[Vanceone]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. Food for thought, indeed! I'd not considered insurance, or local building permits. Is it true that you can't burn pine in these new stoves too? That's a bit of a shock--about all that grows around here is aspen or pine.

We are building around Mt. Pleasant, UtahRich. The house is framed up (we quit for the winter), so we can't chop off a thousand square feet, alas. It was built to take good advantage of passive solar heat, I'm not sure what else is available. We get heavy winters, with lots of snow... I'm not sure if that would interfere with roof panels, etc.

As far as a masonry heater, I don't know much about those--is it too late to install one? There's no ducting in, at all, or plumbing/electric yet (just the concrete stuff).

Yes, my folks are nearing retirement age, so convience is a big issue. Pellets themselves (at the prices we have here) seem to run about 2/3rds to 3/4 of the cost of propane--without counting the install costs for tanks, gas lines, ducting, etc.

On the coal, these answers have helped alot--but it sure seems like coal or maybe even a coal furnace would be worthwhile to investigate. Coal is, last we checked, about 100 dollars a ton right now, which is pretty cheap--and if it's low sulfer coal, maybe that's a good option. It's still too messy to put on the main floor, and I think the pellet stove there (yes, we are thinking of the Quad Mt. Vernon AE, the new one) seems like a good plan. The question is, would we have to sacrifice our wood stove to put in a good coal burner, or can we somehow combine it? And are coal stoves roughly equivalent in cost?

Wood chopping is labor intensive, and honestly, I don't expect my parents to really want to do it--ideally, I'd like to get about 8 cords or so, as a reserve, but then hopefully burn either pellets (or, preferably) coal for the main heat. If we put in a coal stove, would that most likely satisfy regulations, etc?

Once again, thanks for the replies! They've been very helpful!

 

[restorer]

Vance:
Your folks are building in the heart of energy in Utah. Honestly, scrap the idea of a wood stove for heat. The only wood you will find is pine or aspen. Not cost effective. Even if you can find some pinion or fir, it will be expensive and small quantity. You might be able to haul some orchard fruit wood from up North around Santiquin or Spanish Fork, but that's expensive. My suggestion would be to investigate the coal furnaces for primary heat. You will pay even in the worst of times a lot less than propane, MT Pleasant isn't on a pipeline and it's trucked from SLC. I have no direct knowledge on the new coal furnaces, but some here will. You have at least 10 major coal operations within 100 miles and they all truck product. You are at a stage in construction where you can build in the storage and feed systems, as well as the ducting and heat distribution.

The secondary system should be pellets, by virtue of back up and esthetics. Some of the new stoves are just as hypnotic to watch as a wood stove. Pellets should be bought and stored pre-season. White Flame is in Provo and may deliver quantity (3-4 ton) reasonably. IFA is still fairly high, but may give a very good discount on quantity. Here in SLC they are above market by 10-20%, but I look for the deal. You can get a nice high capacity stove that will do a good job, but no single stove will heat that large a house. Go for the best Btu output. I would not recommend spending money on a bio-mass stove, because you are not near any source (I'm not either), corn is not an option either. Unless it's grown locally, it's too expensive. Here in Salt Lake it's $7.99 per 50lb. bag.

Although the Mt. Pleasant area gets snow, I'd research the heating/cooling days and the temperature ranges. I think you will find it's a lot milder there than many Mid-West cities. Snow is a lot lighter than North (Unitah Mountains) or south around Cedar City. You are in the middle of two normal storm tracks, kind of get brush by's not the big blasts, that's usually anyway.

Keep asking questions, great way to pick all our brains.

 

[kevinmoelk]

Hi Vanceone. Welcome aboard. 4600 sq feet for two people? Yikes. That's a butt load of space, and inefficient imo. And I'm going to come off like a big jerk here but.... you've framed an entire house up without regards to how it is going to be heated??? Huh? My hope is that at the very least you come from a large family that will utilize that 4600 sq feet at least during the holidays.

Passive solar heating is great and whatnot, but without the proper site orientation and calculated depth of overhangs, etc, etc, the effectiveness of putting in a big bank of windows for solar gain is fruitless. If heating the home were not considered, I have questions as to viability of the passive solar concepts being incorporated.

Now that I've beat you up a little, let me try and help. First off, I would work on dividing the interior space into rooms that will be used and rooms that can be cut off from daily activities. Reduce the space you need to heat and you'll save some money. I would investigate into an electric powered radient floor system with zoning personally. That way you can lower temperatures in one area and raise temps in another. This system would also provide heat during times away. For the space heating, I'd suggest coal or pellets as to the convenience factor... unless your folks are willing and able to the wood thing. Sounds like UncleRich can steer you in the right direction concerning local resources.

Frankly, if it were me... I'd stick a heat pump in, finish up the house, sell it, hopefully make some money, buy a new piece of property and build a FAR more efficient 1500 sq foot home. New home construction should consist of few surprises and definately should include plans for heating before the first shovel of earth is turned over. Seeing as your folks are nearing retirement age, considerations there could be factored in as well. For example, designing for someone in a wheel chair, bathrooms created to be easy for elder folks, elimination of stairs, etc.

Good luck and again welcome aboard.

-Kevin

 

[restorer]

Kevin:
Strong, but good reply. Electric heat is not an option. KillingWatts in Utah are worse than Southern California. If Vance is in the hill country, it's considered recreational property, that translates to charge everything you can squeeze. If you have twenty documented irrigation pumps you get a break, but a residence is not cheap. They calculate cost by poles. about ten grand each. That's the poles to your property from the most convenient line tap, not necessarily the closest. Sorry Vance your folks will not be serviced by Rocky Mountain Power, newly acquired by Berkshire Hathaway, no longer Scottish Power. DON'T GET ME STARTED.

For Vance, I would recommend including in the plans some propane for practical purposes. Heating water, cooking, and an essential, a generator. Propane will be a lot less hassle than any other fuel source. Buy your tank and contract your delivery. Propane clothes dryers and even unit heaters can save costs, but don't plan on heating your LODGE with gas.

 

[Vanceone]

Thanks for the advice!

Yes, we DID think of heating, but were a bit dismayed by the cost of propane when it came time to get the bids for the furnace. We'd wanted a wood stove and insert upstairs anyway, even with the forced air, so once we saw the cost of the forced air install (plus, our local propane companies wanted to guarentee themselves sales, and they are requiring purchasing so many gallons a year of propane--and being forced to BUY 2000 dollars worth of propane, wether it's used or not, is not exactly appealing).

We did orient the house to get the most out of the passive solar, though. Yeah, the house is big.... bigger than it should be, honestly, but it sort of grew (moms/wives say, 'what about...' and bam, there you go).

As for closing off rooms, yes, we've done that. The basement will hardly need any heat, and the main floor, one wing is pretty much guest stuff, and will mostly be closed off, unless someone's there. So, while the square footage is big... much of that is being closed off.

Electric isn't that horrendous yet, just an iffy power supply. We are on the grid, but it's not Rocky Mountain--very few places down here are; they are local power co's. We are thinking of electric tankless water heaters (this is a year round residence)--and it's in a subdivision that's got water and power to the lots, just the lots are far away from everywhere, so no nat. gas. Yes, a generator is essential. Perhaps a nice coal furnace would be best? Instead of a propane one?

Electric radiant heat as a primary source seems very expensive, though we were thinking of electric baseboard heat for the back-up when off on a trip or something. Yeah, costly, but if it's only maybe a week out of the year, it wouldn't be so bad.

I'm glad to see the pellet stove idea is sound, and my mom likes the looks of the quad Mt. Vernon AE, so I bet we get that. Thanks for the advice so far--anyone know anything about coal stoves/furnaces?

 

[Gooserider]

You CAN burn pine and other softwood cordwood in a modern stove, as long as it is well seasoned and dry, however you will get a different set of burning characteristics - The fires will tend to be hotter but much shorter than what you would get with hardwoods.

Masonry heaters are mostly wood burners AFAIK, but it might be possible to run one on coal... You could put one in at this stage, but it might take some design work to figure out how to fit one into a partially constructed house. They are different in concept than stoves and other sorts of heaters - A masonry heater is essentially a BIG monolithic structure (usually several tons) containing a firebox and a very convoluted smoke passage. The idea is that you light one or two largish fires / day in the firebox, each of which will burn VERY hot and fast. The airflow is carefully metered and designed to encourage fast and hot, but very clean burning. The combustion gasses are then forced through the convoluted smoke passages which absorb the heat so that what finally exits the stack is fairly cool. The heat absorbed by the masonry is then gradually radiated back out into the house over the next several hours. People that have them love them.

Gooserider

 

[jejennings]

In addition to the looking at the relative merits of any heating units you are considering, regardless of type, also consider the manufacturer’s service and support policies. I didn’t do this when I bought a Harman Model 2600 multi-fuel central furnace in 2000 to replace an ancient wood and oil burning furnace that we had had for many years. I now regret the choice. Three seasons ago I decided to run the furnace on oil only until my wife recovered from her lung cancer surgery, so that there would be no chance of even a whiff of wood smoke entering the house. When the furnace fired we smelled oil. This has continued right up to this season and we’ve tried everything to get it repaired, complete cleaning and resealing of the oil heat exchanger (twice), various adjustment to the oil burner, chimney cleaning, etc. We even had the air conditioning oil pulled so that the heat exchanger could be inspected for cracks (none found). My heating technician is at his wit’s end and blames it on poor furnace design. Emails, telephone calls, and faxed and snail mailed messages to Harman asking for technical help or referral to a technician who could solve the problem have been unanswered. They won’t even send me a replacement manual. Their standard reply is that all service and parts orders must go through the dealer who sold me the furnace. I of course called the dealer from whom I bought the furnace and was told by the owner’s widow that when her husband died, Harmon pulled her dealership and gave it to someone else, even though they sold 84 Harman units a year. She said her very experienced and qualified service technician would no longer service Harmon products because of the way
Dane Harman and his company treated her. The two Harman Dealers within reasonable driving distance from me do not handle furnaces, only stoves, and do not have service technicians qualified in the oil heat part. The bottom line – Do not purchase ANY Harmon product unless you are absolutely sure that your dealer will remain in business for as long as you own the stove and will be willing to provide service and parts when needed.

Jack Jennings
Sicklerville, NJ
[email protected]

 

[begreen]

Jack, sorry to hear of this negative experience with Harman. You have my sympathy and I hope posting here will get it some more attention. But once is enough. We read all the posts and get the point. Does your state have any sort of consumer protection? Have you contacted the state's attorney general about this case? If Harman is not honoring the warranty, then they should be taken to task for it.

 

[jejennings]

BeGreen,

I posted in multiple topics because everyone does not read every post in every topic. I bought my Harmon 2600 in March of 2000. Even though I first contacted Harman while the 6 year warrantee was still active, their policy is that all warrantee matters are handled by the dealer who sells the unit, so since they lifted my store's dealership, I have no place to turn. I doubt that New Jersey's Consumer protection folks would be interested in my case. They only act on something when they get flooded by numerous reports of one problem.

Jack

 

[begreen]

Try it, I have been surprised by the state support for what I thought was a small case. And how will you know how many complaints there have been filed against Harman until you inquire? What are your alternatives?

 

[jejennings]

Maybe I'll give a try at contacting Consumer Protection, although I'd much rather have Harman at least provide some technical support to my service tech. There are only two Harman dealers in my area and neither has sold a multi-fuel furnace' Although I have not posted in the forum until recently, I have been active within the local wood burning community for over 25 years. I have heard of only one other Harman furnace in the seven southern counties of New Jersey. The Harman replaced an old "oil under woodbox" model whose heat exchanger burned out. I was very inefficient burning oil.

By the way, I love ther way the furnace works with wood.

Jack

 

[begreen]

How much evidence of woodsmoke is there when burning wood? If the furnace is well made there should be zero wood smoke coming from it into the interior of the house. Or is this more a concern when she is outdoors?

PS: I appreciate your concern for your wife's health. This must be very stressful. How is she doing?

 

[jejennings]

How much evidence of woodsmoke is there when burning wood? If the furnace is well made there should be zero wood smoke coming from it into the interior of the house. Or is this more a concern when she is outdoors?

The Harman 2600 is very well constructed, that's one reason I bought it... over 900 pounsds of steel. When burning wood, there is no odor in the house, as long asthere is suffricient fire left to maintain enough draft when loading. The harmn uses tow separate heat exchngers and that is why it is so efficient when burning oil. Odor problems occur only when burning oil.

PS: I appreciate your concern for your wife's health. This must be very stressful. How is she doing?

Her lung cancer was luckily diagnosed early enough. She lost the upper lobe of one lung almost five years ago, did not need either radiation or chemo, and is still cancer free. Concern continues, of sourse.

The last year we burned wood almost exclusively we burned 6.25 cords and spent lesss than $13.00 on oil. We would have burned woo this winter but I did not have enough seasoned.

Jack

 

[begreen]

I'm really happy to hear that Jack. We have a friend that got a very similar treatment and is doing well after 5 years.

I've started another thread with the model of the Harmon in the title. That may attract other Harmon furnace owners that can share information with you. Can you pick it up there and answer the questions I've posed about the installation? Look for the Harmon 2600 thread.

 

[iman]

Vance
I think you should really look into the coal stove or coal furnace as the main type of heat for a house this large. Carbon and Emery are just over the hill (mountain) and coal is byfar the cheapest way to go. My dad uses a old ineffecent coal furnace to heat his old house and never spends more than 300 dolars a winter on coal. He lives in Price and just goes to the coal load out and gets the bed of his truck filled with coal that is crushed to about 3/4 of an inch for furnaces.
Coal has its problems 1st it can be messy You have to store the coal This is usually a bin in the basement next to the furnace with a shute coming in from outside. You will have ash and clinckers to deal with. You have to shovel coal out of you truck and in the shute then every day or so from the bin to the furnace. If your parents are older and just want to relax this is not the way to go but neither is wood or pellets or living out in the country. My dad also has base board electric for back upand when he is out of town. I hope this helps you in your decision.