Storage as "Buffer Tank"

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chuck172

Minister of Fire
Apr 24, 2008
1,045
Sussex County, NJ
To expand upon another currently active thread-"Scandanavian Storage Temp". Just a thought here. I know many have mucho gallons of storage. 1000 seems to be about the average. Our friend Hansson from Sweeden says that 500 pressurized gallons seems to be the norm in his country. Also, the heating loads are piped only through the tank. Not through both the boiler and tank.
I have a 500 gallon propane tank I use as pressurized storage. It doesn't take very long to heat my storage to from 140* to 170*. I then keep going till I hit 190* or so.
I have seen where it's been discussed that a buffer tank used in this application could double as a big hydraulic separator. Any thoughts on the pro's and con's of this set-up?
 
chuck172 said:
To expand upon another currently active thread-"Scandanavian Storage Temp". Just a thought here. I know many have mucho gallons of storage. 1000 seems to be about the average. Our friend Hansson from Sweeden says that 500 pressurized gallons seems to be the norm in his country. Also, the heating loads are piped only through the tank. Not through both the boiler and tank.
I have a 500 gallon propane tank I use as pressurized storage. It doesn't take very long to heat my storage to from 140* to 170*. I then keep going till I hit 190* or so.
I have seen where it's been discussed that a buffer tank used in this application could double as a big hydraulic separator. Any thoughts on the pro's and con's of this set-up?

The pro is pretty much the simplicity.

The con is that you can't heat both the storage and the house, at least when the storage is initially heating up.

In any case, the size of the storage should be determined by the heat load. The size of the boiler should then be determined in order to heat up the storage in a reasonable fashion.

Since many European houses have much lower heat loads, and use lower-temp radiation, when compared to American houses, it's not surprising that they use smaller storage tanks. There's also the balance point between interior space used by a tank (at a premium in much of Europe), versus the run-time that you can go between fires.

And, of course, pressurized storage doesn't have heat-exchanger-based temperature loss, so you can get more out of less gallons, compared to atmospheric storage with a heat exchanger.

Joe
 
What type of lower-temp radiation do the European's use? Hansson's talking about droping his storage down to 30* C. That's 86*!!
 
chuck172 said:
What type of lower-temp radiation do the European's use? Hansson's talking about droping his storage down to 30* C. That's 86*!!

Certain radiant systems can operate that low, during mild weather. Panel radiators can also be sized for some pretty-low temperatures.

I'm wondering what he's using, and what weather allows for those supply temps, out of curiosity.

Joe
 
You may be thinking about my post about my plans for a "1000 gallon hydraulic separator".

I am still planning on doing it that way but funds and time (not enough of either) made me put off the project until this summer.

Systems in Europe tend to be smaller. Their houses are smaller and better insulated. I think only their old buildings and castles have the kind of heat loads that are common here in the northern states. So their heat storage tanks are also smaller.

My main reason for installing the heat storage tank as a hydraulic separator is to isolate my Tarm Solo 40 from the changing loads of the house heating and DHW. I don't have computer controlled solenoids and O2 sensors to constantly match the burn to the changing load and changing head from pumps coming on and off. I think the design of the totally manual downdraft gassers is a carefully balanced compromise of various elements. If the boiler only has one job, heating the tank, with a constant very low flow resistance and good stratification, it will be easier to tweak the few variables I have. Namely primary and secondary air, fan speed, and barometric draft on the flue. I'm hoping to find a nice steady moderate burn that gives best average efficiency. I'm sure once I get the system up and running I'll want to mess with other stuff, too. I program and setup computer controlled machine tools for a living, but that is my hope.

It will be important for any tank setup like this to provide for the condition where the house is calling for the most heat and the tank is almost depleted of heat. The boiler needs to be able to feed almost directly to the loads to keep up. With radiant heat the return water is very low temp and easier to keep the tank stratified but with baseboard or air convectors the return will be much higher temp and with the circulators running full the water coming back into the storage tank will be swirling around and not at the same bottom temp. Makes it tough to keep the tank stratified. This suggests large pipes to minimize flow velocity with some kind of baffles to minimize turbulence back into the tank. But it is still very tricky with higher return temps.

Commercial hydraulic separators all seem to be longer and taller than wide and vertically mounted. That makes the boiler supply in at the top and the supply line to the loads (also at the top but on the other side) pretty close to each other. When the boiler's running and the house is calling the hot water just floats right across the gap almost as if it were all in a pipe. But what happens when you have a horizontally oriented long propane tank? In my case there is 8 feet between the boiler supply fitting and the supply line to the house. My answer will be to pipe the water into and out of the tank with 3' long internal horizontal pipes so that the mouths of these 3" pipes are only a couple feet apart and pointed right at each other.

I'm hoping other more experienced folks will lend their opinions on this as I am pretty committed to try it. Some of the pros who have actually used hydraulic separators for their usual purposes must have some insight.

I gotta go but will be looking in again later.
 
So here Hansson says that directly coupling the boiler to the heat storage tank is the normal setup over there! That makes me feel less like a not very confident pioneer. Maybe a viable arrangement after all. Just a little trickier with the tank horizontal, I think.
I still think that for a house that is not well insulated and not using low temp (radiant floors) heat it might be problematic, as Joe suggests.

What type of lower-temp radiation do the European’s use? Hansson’s talking about droping his storage down to 30* C. That’s 86*!!

I will be using radiant heat in the all the floors of my house, and some radiant panels under the big south-facing glass. Aluminum plate/PEX tubing sandwich on top of the subfloor a fraction of an inch from our toes. The supply temp to the tubing at design conditions calls for 110F. I don't know how low it will go in milder conditions. Presumably, Mr. Tekmar and his mixing valve know. If I want to put insulated shutters on the 240 sq.ft. of south facing glass at night I can use 100F. This is according to Siegenthaler's software. Mileage can always vary. But it gives an idea of what might be possible with modern construction.

It would be tough and expensive to do with an older house here in northern states.
 
Is it possible that using 500 gallons as a "buffer" rather than storage would be more practical? Naturally, compared to 1000 gallons of storage- The heat from it last's 1/2 as long but only requires 1/2 the fire to heat it.
 
DaveBP said:
You may be thinking about my post about my plans for a "1000 gallon hydraulic separator".

I am still planning on doing it that way but funds and time (not enough of either) made me put off the project until this summer.

Systems in Europe tend to be smaller. Their houses are smaller and better insulated. I think only their old buildings and castles have the kind of heat loads that are common here in the northern states. So their heat storage tanks are also smaller.

My main reason for installing the heat storage tank as a hydraulic separator is to isolate my Tarm Solo 40 from the changing loads of the house heating and DHW. I don't have computer controlled solenoids and O2 sensors to constantly match the burn to the changing load and changing head from pumps coming on and off. I think the design of the totally manual downdraft gassers is a carefully balanced compromise of various elements. If the boiler only has one job, heating the tank, with a constant very low flow resistance and good stratification, it will be easier to tweak the few variables I have. Namely primary and secondary air, fan speed, and barometric draft on the flue. I'm hoping to find a nice steady moderate burn that gives best average efficiency. I'm sure once I get the system up and running I'll want to mess with other stuff, too. I program and setup computer controlled machine tools for a living, but that is my hope.

It will be important for any tank setup like this to provide for the condition where the house is calling for the most heat and the tank is almost depleted of heat. The boiler needs to be able to feed almost directly to the loads to keep up. With radiant heat the return water is very low temp and easier to keep the tank stratified but with baseboard or air convectors the return will be much higher temp and with the circulators running full the water coming back into the storage tank will be swirling around and not at the same bottom temp. Makes it tough to keep the tank stratified. This suggests large pipes to minimize flow velocity with some kind of baffles to minimize turbulence back into the tank. But it is still very tricky with higher return temps.

Commercial hydraulic separators all seem to be longer and taller than wide and vertically mounted. That makes the boiler supply in at the top and the supply line to the loads (also at the top but on the other side) pretty close to each other. When the boiler's running and the house is calling the hot water just floats right across the gap almost as if it were all in a pipe. But what happens when you have a horizontally oriented long propane tank? In my case there is 8 feet between the boiler supply fitting and the supply line to the house. My answer will be to pipe the water into and out of the tank with 3' long internal horizontal pipes so that the mouths of these 3" pipes are only a couple feet apart and pointed right at each other.

I'm hoping other more experienced folks will lend their opinions on this as I am pretty committed to try it. Some of the pros who have actually used hydraulic separators for their usual purposes must have some insight.

I gotta go but will be looking in again later.

The hydro separators are often used as air elimination and some dirt separation. The vertical mounting works best for this. There is some engineering involved in the dimensions of those vertical styled separators.

I have used the Caleffi HydroLink mounted both ways and it accomplishes the separation fine in either position, but it is not as good as the vertical separators for air removal.

www.caleffi.us has some good reading and video on how separation works and the theory behind the design. You can also download a PDF of the Idronics issue related to separation. It's a technical journal moreso than and ad piece.

I've built a couple working cutaways to demonstrate the concept. Different food coloring added to the clear piping shows how well the separation works. in living color.

hr
 

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BrownianHeatingTech said:
I'm wondering what he's using, and what weather allows for those supply temps, out of curiosity.

Joe

This is how the radiators look like.This is a small radiator.I got one under every window
The system is old.Build in the 1960.
The pipes are big.It was ordinary in that time to build the systems to work whitout pumps.
self circulation? i dont now the word in English.
The one on the picutre has smal pipes to it.The former owner to the house have change the pipes to the radiator to small ones.
I dont now why. :-(


When the outside temp is about 0 c the temp to the radiators is about 30-35c

You can se the temp in my graph.
The outside temp is the pink one.The temp to the radiators are the green one
http://web.telia.com/~u88408780/trn_alla_48.jpg

Sorry if the picutre is big.
 

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Thanks Hannson, The self circulation is "gravity flow".
I've been following the other link you gave us :http://www.elstyrteknik.se/pannrum/
Seems like he has a very efficient system with one boiler firing a day. Temps get over 100*C in the tank.
 
I know the link is in "real time", so it may change, but right now I see his tank temp is 97*C, Is he pushing out 27*C to his heating load and returning 25*C. That's only about 80*F.
Is he using some sort of mixing valve or maybe there hasn't been a call for heat in a while. I guess when his tank cools, he'll start up another fire, the boiler is down to 109*F
 
my top tank temp yesterday before a fire was 68 degrees. 1/2 full fire took temps to 143 + heating the radiant slab. another 1/2 load of wood took top tank temps to 175. my thermostat is set at 64. sweetheat
 
chuck172 said:
Is it possible that using 500 gallons as a "buffer" rather than storage would be more practical? Naturally, compared to 1000 gallons of storage- The heat from it last's 1/2 as long but only requires 1/2 the fire to heat it.

I would like to hear others input on this as well. On the one hand, it seems like a buffer tank would allow longer/hotter periods of gasification, followed by lower and "deeper" idle time. This seems like this would increase efficiency a bit. On the other hand, not allowing the water to stratify by keeping the pumps running all the time would seem to increase standby losses and increase the amount of radiation needed as usable water temps would likely get cooler faster, thereby probably losing all the efficiency gained by the higher hi's and deeper idles.

Just a thought.

Thermal storage is a relatively new idea here in the states... there just aren't many people with alot of experience with it on this side of the atlantic. Most people agree, though, that storage is best utilized by shutting everything down.

cheers
 
Is it possible that using 500 gallons as a “buffer” rather than storage would be more practical?

The distinction might be getting blurred here.



You can also download a PDF of the Idronics issue related to separation.

Hot Rod,
It was a link to the Caleffi article ( you may have posted it ) that originally set me to thinking about plumbing my closely coupled heat storage tank as a hydraulic separator. The idea hit me like a gong. But like so much in the hydronics world, it's old news in Europe.



Hansson,
If your boiler is full of wood and burning fast and the electricity stops can your boiler and tank self-circulate through the Laddomat 21? Do the temps get too high? Is your tank higher than the boiler? Does that help to have the tank higher?
Excuse me asking so many questions but you are a valuable resource on this forum. I'm glad you have the patience to help so much.
 
"The distinction might be getting blurred here"
I see what you mean. I'm interested in the difference between Hansson's system. Aprox 500 gallons used as a buffer. The boiler only feeds the tank, not the system. And a system that utilizes much more storage, lets say twice as much, and the boiler feeds both storage and the load.
I'm wondering if one is limited to 500 gallons of pressurized storage, would Hansson's system be more practicle?
 
I think Hansson's tank may be even smaller than 500 gallons. He also said once he might like to have more. He'll correct me if I'm wrong.

I’m interested in the difference between Hansson’s system. Aprox 500 gallons used as a buffer. The boiler only feeds the tank, not the system. And a system that utilizes much more storage, lets say twice as much, and the boiler feeds both storage and the load.
I’m wondering if one is limited to 500 gallons of pressurized storage, would Hansson’s system be more practicle?

I'm also wondering if it isn't more practical if one is not limited to 500!
 
He actually has 530 gallons.

Yeah, that would make sense. 2000 liters; nice round number.


To address your original question for this thread, the pros and cons seem to be shaking out toward the advantages. If you mean buffer tank to be a tank directly coupled to the boiler. As much as I admire gadgets and awesome arrays of pump and valves and thermostatic diverters and efficiency tweaked until it squeeks... I yearn for simplicity.

It took me a while and a number of stupid questions to this forum born of misunderstanding before I appreciated it but Nofossil's simplest sticky inspired me to believe there had to be a way to reduce the whole system (at least for pressurized systems) to a bare minimum for those willing to sacrifice perhaps a few percent of efficiency. I don't think any of us will invent anything new but I'm enjoying this process of americanizing established european technology.
 
Hello
The boiler and tank can self-circulate through the Laddomat 21. It`s good to have the tank higher than the boiler but it works fine now. If the boiler is lower than the tank the boiler gets empty on hot water faster.
The temps don't get high.If you have a expansion like in the picture i post it don't matter if the boiler boil.
The steam goes out on the roof.But that have newer happened to me.

Piker the pumps that feed the tank from the boiler is only ON when the boiler burns.

I sure want a bigger tank and a bigger boiler and a bigger car :)
But this is enough for me.
In the winter time I do one fire a day when its really cold.Coldest this year -27
In the summer the tank last 7 days
I think this is a simple system.
 
so I have been reading these posts and began to look at my system. I am now thoroughly confused which was not that hard to do. I have two 250 propane tanks standing upright. My boiler does not hook directly to the storage tanks. The supply line out of the boiler heads to the undergroiund pipe. It branches off about half way and also sends supply water to storage. I have only one circ on the boiler return. The other circ is inside the house as it gets to my system. My installer was out last week and for the first time referred to my storage as buffer tanks. How do i tell the difference? He has referred to Europe before when talking about storage sizez. I was concerned with only 500 gals for the whole house as it seemed small but he was pushing for efficiency as well as simplicity.
 
I also think the distinction between a buffer and a storage tank is kind of hazy. I think we need a clearer definition of what's what. Please excuse me if this sounds too basic this late in the thread. Buffer tanks are use on many fossil fuel systems and are specifically sized to the system to limit short cycling of the appliance. It keeps efficiency up. Most manufacturers recommend some kind of cycling limit per day and a buffer tank is used for this application. The boiler would typically heat the buffer directly and the loads cycle through it. The size is based on the mass of the load, the appliance, heat loss, etc. In this case I don't see where stratification is as much a concern. Typically they would be no larger then a moderate water heater. I have a short cycling problem with my oil boiler, especially with burning wood and solar so I have to see about solving that problem. To me a thermal storage tank is a buffer tank on steroids and is way pass the cycling limit for other reasons. In this case it is a wood boiler that we are limitng the cycle of since it makes no sense to convert chemical energy (fuel) and store the thermal energy with the resulting standby losses. A storage tank is perfectly suited to keep a wood boiler operating efficiently. Many on here have the boiler set up to heat the zones first and then the storage tank. A quick way to get heat to a zone while maybe adding some complexity. Stratification is typically wanted in a storage tank as it increases the "effective" size of the thermal storage. A hydraulic separator is another concept to keep pump flows from interfering with each other in a system. A buffer or storage tank can be used like this. Obviously they all can have some overlap between them. The only reason I made these points is that I have a concept that I am considering where I may use both a buffer and a storage tank separately in a kind of hybrid system. Mainly it would be to keep high temp loads (wood/oil/baseboard) separate from the low temp solar/radiant system. The high temp would be a smaller pressurized tank whereas the low temp may be a large unpressurized. I want to keep things simple as possible so it is a work in progress.

That's my take on it. Anyone else?

Mike
 
steam man said:
I also think the distinction between a buffer and a storage tank is kind of hazy. I think we need a clearer definition of what's what. Please excuse me if this sounds too basic this late in the thread. Buffer tanks are use on many fossil fuel systems and are specifically sized to the system to limit short cycling of the appliance. It keeps efficiency up. Most manufacturers recommend some kind of cycling limit per day and a buffer tank is used for this application. The boiler would typically heat the buffer directly and the loads cycle through it. The size is based on the mass of the load, the appliance, heat loss, etc. In this case I don't see where stratification is as much a concern. Typically they would be no larger then a moderate water heater. I have a short cycling problem with my oil boiler, especially with burning wood and solar so I have to see about solving that problem. To me a thermal storage tank is a buffer tank on steroids and is way pass the cycling limit for other reasons. In this case it is a wood boiler that we are limitng the cycle of since it makes no sense to convert chemical energy (fuel) and store the thermal energy with the resulting standby losses. A storage tank is perfectly suited to keep a wood boiler operating efficiently. Many on here have the boiler set up to heat the zones first and then the storage tank. A quick way to get heat to a zone while maybe adding some complexity. Stratification is typically wanted in a storage tank as it increases the "effective" size of the thermal storage. A hydraulic separator is another concept to keep pump flows from interfering with each other in a system. A buffer or storage tank can be used like this. Obviously they all can have some overlap between them. The only reason I made these points is that I have a concept that I am considering where I may use both a buffer and a storage tank separately in a kind of hybrid system. Mainly it would be to keep high temp loads (wood/oil/baseboard) separate from the low temp solar/radiant system. The high temp would be a smaller pressurized tank whereas the low temp may be a large unpressurized. I want to keep things simple as possible so it is a work in progress.

That's my take on it. Anyone else?

A buffer tank/ thermal storage can and does have several functions. Knowing that it is impossible to always match the boiler output EXACTLY to the everchanging building load. So one function would be to prevent short cycling when the loads from the building are low. This is whay manufactures add modulating fans to try as best they can adjust the boiler output without harming the appliance efficiency or creating creasote issues. It's not easily done with cord wood boilers. Easier with bio mass or pellet, still nowhere near what can be done with gas or LP fired boilers.

The other function of a buffer tank is a "parking space" It allows you to run a hot efficient fire and store energy above and beyond what the load requires. The size of the buffer would then be based on how many hours of heat would you want without needing to stoke the fire. Again this is an everchanging number. Most calculate that "coast" number based on design load. Or the load the building has on the coldest expected day.

There is no perfect size tank for any application. Ever job presents a specfic set of qualifications, space for equipment, loads, and largely budget.

The total load of the building would possibly be the biggest determining factor when sizing for drawndown time. Smaller homes with smaller loads, perhaps 500 gallons will suit. I think a 40K or smaller boiler works well with 500 gallons of buffer. I shoot for a 12 hour no burn time buffer capacity at design conditions.

Keep in mind if the boiler is sized EXACTLY to the design load there will be no extra capacity to charge the buffer tank! So only less than design conditions will allow tank charging.

Your location has a lot to do with sizing also. if you winters get and stay cold consistently the system may look different than one in Missouri for example wher in one month January, we see sub zero to 60plus temperatures. hard to design a perfect system around that target.

Oversized boilers are another reason to consider storage. Remember energy, regardless of insulation value will slip away. You will never get 100% of the energy loaded into a buffer back out. The bigger the buffer the more loss.

Buffer size depends on what YOU are trying to accomplish, don't look for an industry standard.

Piping is the other critical component. A great insulated buffer with a poorly designed piping is usless. I feel with any buffer over a couple hundred gallons, you should pipe a means to provide all of the boiler output directly to the load, bypassing the tank. Especially if the boiler is sized accurately to the design load.

Allowing for a proper bypass of the buffer does require more components ($$) and controls to do it properly and by automatic means, no manual valve operation :)

Ever solid fuel boiler customer needs to sit down and write a list of what and how they prefer their system to operate. Compare that to the money available for the project and adjust until you are content.

The good news is ALL of the tools and formulas to do this along with many personal experiances have crossed this great site. Search around for the ideas you are comfortable with. There will never be a "canned" plug and play solid fueled system IMO. But nobody should have to "guesstimate" anything to get a safe, comfortable, reliable system, based on your expectitations.

hr

Mike
 
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