Swedish Boiler Site

[chuck172]

Hansson let us know about an on-line, real-time boiler site in Sweden. I find it interesting how simple and efficient the system is.:
http://www.elstyrteknik.se/pannrum/

 

[DaveBP]

I've had a quick-link to his site for a few months. I draw a lot of inspiration from it.

Checking in a few different times of day for a few days will give you a pretty good idea of how simple wood boiler/storage/radiant heat can be. Ute=outside and Kontor is the guys office. It must be insulated extremely well.

The visual graphic is great for people who can't "see" line graphs like Nofossil and now, Hansson himself have posted on their websites.

 

[chuck172]

Yeah, Hansson and his link inspired me to rethink my situation. It is simple there and my installation is comparatively complex. I only have 500 gallons of storage and I would hate to stack another 500 gallon propane tank on top. I will if I feel the need, but these European installations seem to do very well with their set-ups.

 

[WoodNotOil]

Everything we knock around here always comes back to the same guidelines: well stratified tank, well insulated homes, ability to heat with low water temp, and highest possible tank temp...

 

[Nofossil]

Yeah, Hansson and his link inspired me to rethink my situation. It is simple there and my installation is comparatively complex. I only have 500 gallons of storage and I would hate to stack another 500 gallon propane tank on top. I will if I feel the need, but these European installations seem to do very well with their set-ups.

The deal with storage is that it needs to match your heat load. European homes tend to be smaller and in at least some cases, better insulated.

The plumbing schematic is virtually identical to 'simplest pressurized storage' - he just has a radiant zone rather than baseboards with zone valves.

Basic idea:

Loop 1 goes from boiler to top of tank, then from bottom of tank back to boiler.

Loop 2 goes from top of storage through heat zones and back to bottom of storage.

The loops are connected at the top of storage and at the bottom of storage so that heat can bypass storage and go directly to the loads if needed.

This uses the fewest components and the least electricity of any approach that I've seen.

 

[pybyr]

Everything we knock around here always comes back to the same guidelines: well stratified tank, well insulated homes, ability to heat with low water temp, and highest possible tank temp...

Amen to all that! In the midst of installing my Econoburn, which is under my kitchen, in a part of the old farmhouse cellar that backs up under a porch, I discovered that the mortar had fallen out of the joints in the fieldstone foundation back in under the porch, in a location that no one had probably looked at for 50 years (a cold wind blowing upon my head as I worked on the Econoburn install gave me the clue that something was way wrong). I bought a pro foam gun and sealed all the voids. That alone means that I have gone from a house that used to need significant heat on a 40*F sunny day to a house that gains from passive solar (even though it is an 1830 farmhouse) on any sunny day above 25*F.

 

[Hansson]

Now i have put upp a small real-time boiler site.
(broken link removed)

Ack = Storage
Ack topp =top of Storage
Ack mitt= center of Storage
Ack bott= bottom of Storage

Radiator tillopp =Water to radiators
Ute temp = outside temp
V vatten från tank= heated water, for shower from the tank.The heated water is heated true two 15 meters copper pipes in the tank.One in the bottom of the tank and one in the topp.

You can se how the stratifying in the tank changes when you make heated water true the copper pipes.
Sorry for my bad English

 

[heaterman]

Everything we knock around here always comes back to the same guidelines: well stratified tank, well insulated homes, ability to heat with low water temp, and highest possible tank temp...

The two things that are of paramount importance go hand in hand and they are these; well insulated home and ability to use low water temps. If your house and system are designed with those two in mind the other two become more insignificant.

The low water temp is probably the most difficult because most of us here in the US are adding a wood boiler to a system that was designed for, or at least requires high water temps. (baseboard, fan forced convectors, heating coil in a furnace plenum , etc.) Over there the use of radiant floor heating and/or oversized panel rads allow for sufficient heating with water temps of less than 120*. I can't stress the fact enough that it's much easier on everything involved to use heat from 180 and down rather than 180 and up. Lot's more leeway in design. There's also the fact that high temperature water (200*+) is much more corrosive than water below that temp. Remember that in Germany all systems have to be designed to heat with water temps of 167*F or less.

 

[pybyr]

Everything we knock around here always comes back to the same guidelines: well stratified tank, well insulated homes, ability to heat with low water temp, and highest possible tank temp...

The two things that are of paramount importance go hand in hand and they are these; well insulated home and ability to use low water temps. If your house and system are designed with those two in mind the other two become more insignificant.

The low water temp is probably the most difficult because most of us here in the US are adding a wood boiler to a system that was designed for, or at least requires high water temps. (baseboard, fan forced convectors, heating coil in a furnace plenum , etc.) Over there the use of radiant floor heating and/or oversized panel rads allow for sufficient heating with water temps of less than 120*. I can't stress the fact enough that it's much easier on everything involved to use heat from 180 and down rather than 180 and up. Lot's more leeway in design. There's also the fact that high temperature water (200*+) is much more corrosive than water below that temp. Remember that in Germany all systems have to be designed to heat with water temps of 167*F or less.

For what it's worth, my "overkill air to water heat exchanger" (24x24, 4 row thick 5/8 copper, with aluminum fins) has indeed demonstrated the hoped-for ability to transfer significant BTUS as low as 155 (which is the lowest it's met yet, pre-storage).

My house, which is not exactly ideally easy to heat, starts gaining net temp as soon as the boiler starts feeding water to the water-air HX coil.

For anyone planning on retrofitting a wood boiler + storage (now, or potentially storage in the future) into an air-based system, I highly recommend pursuing an overkill HX, rather than one sized with USA 180 degree, 20 degree delta T norms.

 

[heaterman]

Everything we knock around here always comes back to the same guidelines: well stratified tank, well insulated homes, ability to heat with low water temp, and highest possible tank temp...

The two things that are of paramount importance go hand in hand and they are these; well insulated home and ability to use low water temps. If your house and system are designed with those two in mind the other two become more insignificant.

The low water temp is probably the most difficult because most of us here in the US are adding a wood boiler to a system that was designed for, or at least requires high water temps. (baseboard, fan forced convectors, heating coil in a furnace plenum , etc.) Over there the use of radiant floor heating and/or oversized panel rads allow for sufficient heating with water temps of less than 120*. I can't stress the fact enough that it's much easier on everything involved to use heat from 180 and down rather than 180 and up. Lot's more leeway in design. There's also the fact that high temperature water (200*+) is much more corrosive than water below that temp. Remember that in Germany all systems have to be designed to heat with water temps of 167*F or less.

For what it's worth, my "overkill air to water heat exchanger" (24x24, 4 row thick 5/8 copper, with aluminum fins) has indeed demonstrated the hoped-for ability to transfer significant BTUS as low as 155 (which is the lowest it's met yet, pre-storage).

My house, which is not exactly ideally easy to heat, starts gaining net temp as soon as the boiler starts feeding water to the water-air HX coil.

For anyone planning on retrofitting a wood boiler + storage (now, or potentially storage in the future) into an air-based system, I highly recommend pursuing an overkill HX, rather than one sized with USA 180 degree, 20 degree delta T norms.

Now, just think how much longer you could run between burns if your system could heat the house with 100* to 110* water. That's the kind of water temp that a good Euro type system will heat a well insulated house with

 

[pybyr]

Everything we knock around here always comes back to the same guidelines: well stratified tank, well insulated homes, ability to heat with low water temp, and highest possible tank temp...

The two things that are of paramount importance go hand in hand and they are these; well insulated home and ability to use low water temps. If your house and system are designed with those two in mind the other two become more insignificant.

The low water temp is probably the most difficult because most of us here in the US are adding a wood boiler to a system that was designed for, or at least requires high water temps. (baseboard, fan forced convectors, heating coil in a furnace plenum , etc.) Over there the use of radiant floor heating and/or oversized panel rads allow for sufficient heating with water temps of less than 120*. I can't stress the fact enough that it's much easier on everything involved to use heat from 180 and down rather than 180 and up. Lot's more leeway in design. There's also the fact that high temperature water (200*+) is much more corrosive than water below that temp. Remember that in Germany all systems have to be designed to heat with water temps of 167*F or less.

For what it's worth, my "overkill air to water heat exchanger" (24x24, 4 row thick 5/8 copper, with aluminum fins) has indeed demonstrated the hoped-for ability to transfer significant BTUS as low as 155 (which is the lowest it's met yet, pre-storage).

My house, which is not exactly ideally easy to heat, starts gaining net temp as soon as the boiler starts feeding water to the water-air HX coil.

For anyone planning on retrofitting a wood boiler + storage (now, or potentially storage in the future) into an air-based system, I highly recommend pursuing an overkill HX, rather than one sized with USA 180 degree, 20 degree delta T norms.

Now, just think how much longer you could run between burns if your system could heat the house with 100* to 110* water. That's the kind of water temp that a good Euro type system will heat a well insulated house with

Absolutely- if I were dealing with closer to a "clean slate" I would definitely go with radiant floor and/ or Euro-type panel radiators, for that precise reason.

 

[heaterman]

Everything we knock around here always comes back to the same guidelines: well stratified tank, well insulated homes, ability to heat with low water temp, and highest possible tank temp...

The two things that are of paramount importance go hand in hand and they are these; well insulated home and ability to use low water temps. If your house and system are designed with those two in mind the other two become more insignificant.

The low water temp is probably the most difficult because most of us here in the US are adding a wood boiler to a system that was designed for, or at least requires high water temps. (baseboard, fan forced convectors, heating coil in a furnace plenum , etc.) Over there the use of radiant floor heating and/or oversized panel rads allow for sufficient heating with water temps of less than 120*. I can't stress the fact enough that it's much easier on everything involved to use heat from 180 and down rather than 180 and up. Lot's more leeway in design. There's also the fact that high temperature water (200*+) is much more corrosive than water below that temp. Remember that in Germany all systems have to be designed to heat with water temps of 167*F or less.

For what it's worth, my "overkill air to water heat exchanger" (24x24, 4 row thick 5/8 copper, with aluminum fins) has indeed demonstrated the hoped-for ability to transfer significant BTUS as low as 155 (which is the lowest it's met yet, pre-storage).

My house, which is not exactly ideally easy to heat, starts gaining net temp as soon as the boiler starts feeding water to the water-air HX coil.

For anyone planning on retrofitting a wood boiler + storage (now, or potentially storage in the future) into an air-based system, I highly recommend pursuing an overkill HX, rather than one sized with USA 180 degree, 20 degree delta T norms.

Now, just think how much longer you could run between burns if your system could heat the house with 100* to 110* water. That's the kind of water temp that a good Euro type system will heat a well insulated house with

Absolutely- if I were dealing with closer to a "clean slate" I would definitely go with radiant floor and/ or Euro-type panel radiators, for that precise reason.

'Nuther thought..........when you get down to heating loads of 5-10 btu's/sq ft and your emitters can use 110* water, you now have a system that can make use of solar input with a smallish wood boiler to back it up. Say bye bye to the gas/oil man and being a slave to the chain saw. That my friends is where we need to end up.

 

[Hansson]

In my cellar I have a radiator whit a fan.
It puts out 3540 watt when the incoming water is 50 celsius.

 

[heaterman]

In my cellar I have a radiator whit a fan.
It puts out 3540 watt when the incoming water is 50 celsius.

That's 12,089 btu @ 122*F. Pretty good heat for 120* water.

We did a job that used 3 fan convectors much like that connected to a variable water temp system driven by a modulating gas boiler. The heating load was near 43,000 btu IIRC and the boiler water modulated from 100* to 140* based on outdoor air temp. Worked sweet!!

 

[sweetheat]

last fire was Sunday. Top 177, mid 159, low 137. Today top was 143. zone 1 requires 100 degree water temps for the radiant in concrete. thermostat is at 64, 24/7. I'll possibly make it through tomorrow without a fire. Thursday I'll have to fire for sure. Very low wood consumption to date. 3 cords dry hard wood. sweetheat

 

[heaterman]

Hannson

What type of tubing is the ivory colored piece coming down the wall?

 

[Hansson]

Hannson

What type of tubing is the ivory colored piece coming down the wall?

The one to the left in the img is the drain from the kitchen.
Its old cast iron pipes.

The second to from left is the incoming water to the house whit the water meter.

I have updated my boiler site whit some new sensors.
check it out here

(broken link removed)

 

[Hansson]

Found an other online site whit solar panels.
(broken link removed)

 

[Hansson]

Did a Little test to day.
The tanks was down to 25C I fill the boiler full whit birch and ignite.
This is what happen
(broken link removed to http://www.forumbilder.se/images/db6200994153P9d16.jpg)

fairly good for just filling the boiler with wood one time
would be fun to weigh the wood

yellow is the tank top
red is the centre of tank
blue bottom of tank
white is the boiler temp