The "bottom up" or "top down" liner installation?

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KeepWarmInWinter

New Member
Sep 22, 2010
52
CT
Hi,

We are considering DIY installation of a flex liner (22', 6") for a wood insert.
There are blue stones installed on the top of our chimney that have to be removed for the top down installation.
Therefore, we are thinking about the bottom up installation. Damper opens to the chimney flue only 6".
We will need to remove not only damper plate but also damper metal frame to make opening bigger.
What is sufficient opening size for the bottom up installation? Please advise us. Thank you.
 
You'll need someone pulling from above if you do bottom up and you'll need someone pulling if you do top down. In my opinion, just remove the stone and go from there as I'd imagine it'll be in your way for sealing off the top of the chimney anyway by the sounds of it.

Personally, I'd let gravity help me.

pen
 
Thank you Pen,
"A picture is worth a thousand words". Therefore, I am attaching pictures of our chimney.
The distance between chimney crown and the blue stones is about 9". It should be OK for sealing of the top of the chimney.
I have found "Tips for installing a liner from the bottom up" thread in the hearth room and received useful information from PM correspondence with authors.
My husband removed the damper plate and cut damper metal frame in the middle of the rear side, so now opening is 6.75".
It is sufficient for a liner, but we are not sure if it will be fine for an insulated liner.
We have already ordered the Flex King 316TI liner.
We have not jet decided if insulate liner or not for two reasons - potential issue with installation and additional cost.
We have limit how much we can spend for this project. Insulating of the liner is recommended but it is not mandatory.
We are going to insulate the top plate, block off plate and firebox using Roxul rock boards.
We are thinking to skip insulating liner or insulate only the bottom part of chimney.
What is your recommendation in respect to insulate liner for our chimney?

Link to "Tips for installing a liner from the bottom up" thread: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/11653/)
 

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Insulating the liner is a good idea with an exterior chimney.

You will not be able to fit the insulated liner up through a 6.75" opening. I did my uninsulated liner from the bottom up, but first dropped a rope down and attached it to a homemade pulling cone, just in case. And indeed, I had to go up and pull after pushing it halfway up. So you may not have to remove the stone but be prepared to.
 
For a pulling cone, I used a large bath towl w/ a rope tied to the center that I shoved into the end of the liner, then used duct tape to secure by closing the opening.

As for insulation, I too had 6.75 in diamter and barely was able to get the 6 in naked SS liner down due to poorly aligned tiles. You won't have room for a wrap of insulation.

Since I too wanted to insulate, I had to call around but finally found (from the oldest family owned hardware within 70 miles) some bagged vermiculite that I insulated w/. My chimney was 16 feet and I used about 3 cu feet of vermiculite to fill it. The 4 cu foot bag cost me 15 dollars.

If you can't find a vermiculite (or you can also use perlite) dealer in your area then shop online now so it arrives to you in time.

Be careful of garden variety vermiculite or perlite as I wouldn't suggest using the brands that sometimes contain added fertilizer.

pen
 
KeepWarmInWinter

We did our 6 inch insulated liner from the top down.

I had the flue back plate cut out similar to yours and I had to take the insulation off at the flue to get it thru.

Also our smoke box had a large jutted angle.

The flue was 8x12 but ours had a curve that was not aligned well.

We did get it in from the top down but it was not a peice of cake.

If you have a strait shot up you will be able to get it up their but not with insulation attached.

Someone previously mentioned the pour in insulation that would help your draft.

Hope It goes well for you.

We have the englander 13 nci and we have nothing but praise so far.

Neal
 
If you go from the top down use a wet and dry vacuum put the hose in the bottom of the chimney helps with down draft and dust.

Good Luck...
md
 
Hi BranchBurner, Pen, Rudyjr, Wardneal, and Lighting Up

Thank you for your thoughts, tips, and advice.

We decided to insulate the liner. We will make opening at damper bigger by removing mortar filler. There are insulation blankets of 0.25" thickness, but they are rather for gas and oil fuel than for a solid fuel. Therefore, we are buying insulation of 0.5" thickness as is recommended for wood stoves. We will have just a little bit more (by 0.5") challenging installation :).
We are preparing for the bottom up installation and I hope it will work fine, if not we will remove the stone for the top down installation. Please keep your fingers crossed!
 
I may be missing it in this thread but what is the inside dimension of the flue tiles?
 
I recently put mine in and I did it with the insulation wrap from the top and it was a major pain in the butt, but going from the bottom seems like more of an issue. Its easier to push down than pull up. I tried a home made puller, but I ripped the bolts out of the metal from pulling so hard. I would highly suggest some sort of insulation - read the threads here about the loose insulation you add after you have the liner in place. I wish I saw those threads before I did the install - would have save me a ton of time and frustration.
 
BrotherBart, the inside dimension of the flue tiles is 11"x 16".

Ifunk11, thank you for your advice, but my husband prefers an insulation wrap versus a poured in insulation product.
 
I am happy to share with you that we, my husband and I, were able to install the insulated liner the bottom up.
It took abut 3 hours. We tried to be gentle with this "poor thing". The chimney narrows just about the first floor.
At some point the liner stuck to the chimney wall.
We inserted a wooden stick between the wall and the liner, and it helped the liner to slide and passed the flue bend.
We did not install the rain cap that came with the liner kit, since the chimney has the bluestone rain cap 8" from the chimney crown.
The top plate we installed with the collar down to maintain required minimum height above the flue.
I am attaching a few pictures from our DIY liner installation.

In summary:
Opening at the damper area: 7.5"
Flue size: 11"x16" (inside dimension)
Liner: Flex King 316TI liner, 25"x 6"
Insulation: King insulation blanket wrap 20" x 24" x 0.5"

FYI: As per "inspectionnews.net" site
"Currently, NFPA 211 requires the underside of the cap to be a distance above the flue equal
or greater than the lesser dimension of the flue. i.e. 8 x 12 flue the cap lid would have to be 8 inches above flue.
That requirement is new in the 2010 edition of NFPA 211 and prior to that there was no requirement for minimum height.
6 to 8 inches was a pretty widely accepted rule of thumb for minimum height above flue".
 

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how did you block off the top ?

Nice job, it's great when the flue tiles are that large. Some guys are trying to get 6in liners in 6.75x6.75 liners

pen
 
Hi Pen,

Minimum opening in the damper area for the bottom up liner installation is 7" with 0.25" thick insulation.
We blocked off the top using the top plate that came with the Flex King Liner kit. We insulated it with Roxul Rockboard 60.
BTW, my husband removed the stone for sealing off the top of the chimney as you suggested.
The stone on the top of the chimney was not the main reason for the bottom up installation.
The chimney flue bend is above of the chimney smoke chamber, so it was easer to handle ?pushing? from the bottom.
Also, we feel better to walk on the floor than on the roof. :)
 
KeepWarmInWinter said:
The chimney flue bend is above of the chimney smoke chamber, so it was easer to handle “pushing” from the bottom.
Also, we feel better to walk on the floor than on the roof.

Yup, same here. Nice job - looks great!
 
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