SteelCat vs. Ceramic - My verdict

[rideau]

Joful, as far as caking with fly ash, that was non-event in ceramic. Certainly is not a non-event in my SS cat. However, the cat works just fine, and only needs to be surface brushed occasionally. This is in a setting of approx. 450 stove top temps, and flue temps always kept under 900, so no high external thermal exposure.

Ceramic cat would work just fine in my setting, and I'd try one in a heartbeat if one was made for my stove.

However, I do have a lot of respect for the people at Woodstock, and firmly believe that if they did not believe the steel cat was the best long term solution, then they would not be working so hard to develop it with Sud Chemi. Certainly, going to the steel cats and dealing with the iterations, and the transport of cats to and from customers, has cost them much in time compared to sticking with ceramic cats, I'm sure.

The design of the PH calls for a very long, narrow cat. I don't know whether that places a limit on the feasibility of a ceramic cat. If so, Woodstock definitely has a vested interest in the development of a good, reliable steel cat. Which could be a factor.

 

[jharkin]

So we got Jotul, VC, Woodstock and at least one BK owner chimed in..... Now we just need opinions from the Buck Stove guys

 

[jharkin]

J
The design of the PH calls for a very long, narrow cat. I don't know whether that places a limit on the feasibility of a ceramic cat. If so, Woodstock definitely has a vested interest in the development of a good, reliable steel cat. Which could be a factor.

Couldn't they just build it like the VC Encore/Definat ceramic cat that is 2 elements in line wrapped in Interam and canned in a stainless band (look at the picture I posted above). Its 2.5in x 13in

 

[Ashful]

rideau & Backwoods, I think what we can take away from this is that Woodstock has probably designed around the use of a SteelCat, whereas no such thing existed at the time the old VC and Jotul cat stoves were developed. I suspect that our "normal" prolonged cat temperatures of 1300 - 1500, with spikes to 1700F in the first hour of the burn, is what is deforming these cats. I suspect that you might see lower running and engagement temps of the cats on your stoves, and that's why the SteelCat's don't fail as quickly in your stove?

As Eddie at Condar said, "the SteelCats just don't work very well in some stove models. I wish I could tell you why, but I just don't know."

 

[chance135]

Since we are having a much needed break from the arctic temperatures I decided to let my Fireview cool down so that I could do some maintenance and clean the glass and firebox. I replaced one gasket that looked a bit suspicious and cleaned the cat using a spray bottle and a 50/50 vinegar and distilled water solution. I sprayed the cat down several times over the corse of an hour and then rinsed it with distilled water. The rinse water was a dark yellow/orange so I know something was being cleaned out of there. I then baked the cat in the oven (hehehe) at 300 for a while to drive out any moisture. The result: improved catalyst activity and I can turn my air down below one again which is something I haven't ben able to do in a while. With four medium birch splits my stove is cruising at around 500 which is more than enough heat for this mild temperature. Well worth the time. I think the 50/50 bath is going to be on my yearly to do list from now on.

 

[rideau]

Good idea to cook the cat.

 

[Ashful]

I'm at about 75 loads of wood thru these new ceramic cat's now, and every single load has lit off without incident. I could rarely get more than a half dozen consecutive loads thru the SteelCat, without some incident of failure. My only regret is that I did not switch back to ceramic sooner.

Now I'm learning to burn all over again. Whereas I had to really push the stove and flue temperatures to get the SteelCats to light off at all, using the same practices causes these ceramic cat's to go absolutely thermo-nuclear. I've hit some record high temps, without intending to do so, but am learning now how to keep things dialed back much more.

If you're using a cat stove, and thinking of switching to SteelCat, I'd think twice about it. If you're having trouble with your SteelCat, and you're blaming yourself or blaming your wood, you might want to try ceramic.

 

[alforit]

I'm at about 75 loads of wood thru these new ceramic cat's now, and every single load has lit off without incident. I could rarely get more than a half dozen consecutive loads thru the SteelCat, without some incident of failure. My only regret is that I did not switch back to ceramic sooner.

Now I'm learning to burn all over again. Whereas I had to really push the stove and flue temperatures to get the SteelCats to light off at all, using the same practices causes these ceramic cat's to go absolutely thermo-nuclear. I've hit some record high temps, without intending to do so, but am learning now how to keep things dialed back much more.

If you're using a cat stove, and thinking of switching to SteelCat, I'd think twice about it. If you're having trouble with your SteelCat, and you're blaming yourself or blaming your wood, you might want to try ceramic.

This is great info Joful.............Thanks

 

[BKVP]

I would like to comment on this thread if I might.
First, all ceramic combustors are made by a single US based manufacturer. Applied Ceramics supplies substrate materials to other companies. Some purchase them with the catalyst applied and "make" combustors to fit various stoves. Corning became Sud Chemie and Sud Chemie became Clariant. Clariant applies their own proprietary catalyst.

There are two exceptions. The reticulated foam combustors are not made by Applied Ceramics and second, one stove manufacturer purchases ceramic combustors from China.

Stainless combustors are not all equal. There are two companies in the US supplying the stove business at this time. One is in Texas and the other is in Mass. Their products are VASTLY different from one another.
The stainless combustors that we and another stove company first purchased from the Texas based supplier (and still being sold on line by one major after market company) are made of diesel foil and are often brazed. The cell structure is not uniform due to the manufacturing process and can lead to the problems many of the posters here have identified.

The second supplier uses DuraFoil. Dura Foil is a different animal. It's rated to 2100F, does not peel, does not warp (when the stove is well designed to not exceed this temp) and has a cell structure that is uniform, like the ceramic designs.

These Dura Foil combustors are super (and more costly) They light off much quicker than their ceramic counter parts, but then they do not hold temps as long in the end of the burn cycle due to less mass. They deal with moisture a bit better on a cold start than the ceramic, but in on going use, there seems to be little difference between the two materials. We use both in our stoves.

I'm off to NY, PA, DE, NJ and MD. So clear than darn roads!

 

[Ashful]

I would like to comment on this thread if I might...

Thanks for your perspective on this. You definitely know the combuster market place better than us users. It's a shame this information isn't more widely known! I'd be willing to give the DuraFoil steel a try, but life is good now with my Condar ceramics, and I'm locked into their warranty cycle for at least a few more years. How these work over the next 3 - 5 years will determine whether I'm back out looking for another alternative.

 

[begreen]

Great info Chris, thanks for the posting.

 

[jharkin]

Thank for that update BKVP.. Too bad you cant tell us exactly which supplier is using which variant you mention though I think I can guess. I understand as an industry rep it wouldn't be proper to spell it out.....

 

[Highbeam]

Would you want the "low bid" cat element? These things aren't cheap but as a percentage of stove price they are a fairly low cost part. The wasted wood, aggravation, pollution, and poor performance caused by a low quality cat element is worth the upcharge when you go to replace. Thing is, we need to know what's best and the only way to know is by threads like this.

 

[BKVP]

Highbeam. The CURRENT Federal law says the stove manufacturer must issue a 3 year, 100% warranty against thermal degradation.

Knowing what I know, I would ask the manufacturer who's cat is in the stove before I would make my purchasing decision. All our cats originate right here is the USA.

 

[Highbeam]

All our cats originate right here is the USA.

...and include a 10 year warranty.

I never had a cat stove before my BK so I was pretty leery of the whole concept. Not any more.

 

[Ashful]

Highbeam. The CURRENT Federal law says the stove manufacturer must issue a 3 year, 100% warranty against thermal degradation.

I guess I need to look into this, assuming you may only be talking about the first cat that comes in the stove. Condar charges pro-rated replacement under warranty after year 1, not year 3, but this is not the OEM cat either.

 

[BKVP]

I guess I need to look into this, assuming you may only be talking about the first cat that comes in the stove. Condar charges pro-rated replacement under warranty after year 1, not year 3, but this is not the OEM cat either.

Yes the warranty under Federal mandate is for the original combustor only.

 

[BKVP]

Thanks for your perspective on this. You definitely know the combuster market place better than us users. It's a shame this information isn't more widely known! I'd be willing to give the DuraFoil steel a try, but life is good now with my Condar ceramics, and I'm locked into their warranty cycle for at least a few more years. How these work over the next 3 - 5 years will determine whether I'm back out looking for another alternative.

Keep in mind what I wrote earlier. Your combustor is made Applied Ceramics. You bought it from Condar.

 

[Woody Stover]

Dura Foil is a different animal. It's rated to 2100F, does not peel, does not warp

Great, because to paraphrase Jackie Childs, this tin foil cat ain't nuttin' but a shrunken head! They evidently don't like high temps.

The one I have in my stove is holding up a lot better, but this is what can happen:

A new one:

After 2.5 seasons:

This one was simmered out at the start of the season. It was still working, but apparently it was stalling on the operator because it was clogged with creo and I got about half a gallon of flakes out of the flue. This one had shriveled up to the point that it was falling out of the cat frame. Some of this is due to operator error, and a stove that can't be run as low as it should be, but the Dura Foil version has got to be a vast improvement.

 

[BKVP]

Great, because to paraphrase Jackie Childs, this tin foil combustor ain't nuttin' but a shrunken head! They evidently don't like high temps.

The one I have in my stove is holding up a lot better, but this is what can happen:

A new one:

After 2.5 seasons:

This one was simmered out at the start of the season. It was still working, but apparently it was stalling on the operator because it was clogged with creo and I got about half a gallon of flakes out of the flue. This one had shriveled up to the point that it was falling out of the cat frame. Some of this is due to operator error, and a stove that can't be run as low as it should be, but the Dura Foil version has got to be a vast improvement.

Which stove do you have?

Chris

 

[begreen]

Honey, who shrunk the cat!

 

[Woody Stover]

Which stove do you have?

That one was run in a Fireview that was leaking air. Before this season, I at least sealed it to where she was able to run the stove with no flame.
I have a Keystone which I've run pretty low most of the time, and the first gen cat is holding up much better. I think it may be a bit weak though, and I have the original ceramic which I can put back in for comparison.

 

[begreen]

Dunno, I keep hearing these are simple stoves...

 

[Woody Stover]

Dunno, I keep hearing these are simple stoves...

There are no simple stoves.

 

[Highbeam]

Dunno, I keep hearing these are simple stoves...

That was dennis thinking they were just as easy as non-cats. He's the only one.