Insert for ZC - Quadrafire vs. Lopi

[billfred]

So I’ve been giving more thought to an insert for this Zero Clearance Unit for my existing Heat N Glo EM42.

Similar to this post… https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/insert-for-a-heat-n-glo-em-42.527/


From what I have researched, this unit is approved for an insert. Does anyone have any experience with putting an insert in these? My 2 local places have these 2 units


http://www.quadrafire.com/Products/2700i-ACC-Wood-Insert.aspx

http://www.lopistoves.com/product-detail.aspx?model=303


I don’t like how far the Lopi sticks out.


The Quad looks nice, but the firebox is really small.


Any advice would be great.



Thanks,


Bill

 

[bholler]

From what I have researched, this unit is approved for an insert. Does anyone have any experience with putting an insert in these? My 2 local places have these 2 units

Where did you find that this fireplace was approved. I just read the manual and it did not say it was all it says is

This fireplace has been tested and listed for use with the optional components specifed in this manual

• Do not install or operate damaged fireplace.
• Do not modify fireplace.
• Installation other than as instructed by Hearth & Home Technologies Inc. is strictly prohibited.
• Do not operate the fireplace without fully assembling all components.
• Do not overfire
• Do not install an unvented gas log set. This fireplace has not been tested for use with unvented gas log sets.
• Installation and/or use of any component part not approved by Hearth & Home Technologies.

Hearth & Home Technologies disclaims any responsibility
for, and the warranty and agency listing will be voided by
the above actions.

Seeing as how they do not list any inserts as optional components that means that installing one would void the listing as stated above. Once that listing is voided the insert can no longer be installed in it because it is an unlisted appliance.

 

[billfred]

Good info. I was only stating that I didn't see anything in my Heat N Glo manual stating that an insert could not be installed in it. I'll e-mail Quadrafire.

After more research, I'm kind of wondering if an insert is worth it, even the approved ones that would fit have very small fireboxes. Spending $4k on a tiny insert, might not really be worth it.

Maybe I should consider completely pulling out the 20 year old heat n glo and go with a more efficient Zero C.

 

[bholler]

Maybe I should consider completely pulling out the 20 year old heat n glo and go with a more efficient Zero C.

That is what i would recommend

Good info. I was only stating that I didn't see anything in my Heat N Glo manual stating that an insert could not be installed in it. I'll e-mail Quadrafire.

They are made by the same company so there is a chance they may allow it but to meet code you would need to get something from them in writing.

 

[billfred]

The more I look into it, putting in a new ZC unit might not work for me.

Looking more at my current ZC unit, I think I can fit a decent size unit in there. The opening seems small, but there is alot of flashing that could be removed.

 

[Snakebit12]

Maybe I should consider completely pulling out the 20 year old heat n glo and go with a more efficient Zero C.

I was in your exact position 2 years ago...HnG 51, looking at inserts including a Quad. What I discovered is that the insert would block the air vents of the ZC. HnG (owned by the same company that makes Quads) would not approve the install.

I decided that it was simply too risky. We tore out the old HnG (including the liner) and installed a new FPX 44 w/ liner. We wanted max heat from our fireplace and the FPX fit the bill for us. We also needed a unit that could bring in outside air in a ventilated attic - only the FPX allowed that.

Even though it wasn't cheap ($7k for fireplace/liner, $2k install and $1k masonry), we have not had one iota of regret.

The attic ventilation issue simplified our selection process. Had the situation been different, we might have selected the RSF Opal.

I would not recommend an insert in a HnG unit.

 

[webby3650]

Why would a company that makes ZC boxes spend the money testing the fireplace so a consumer could, possibly in the future upgrade it with an insert? It would cost them 10's of thousands of dollars! It does not make sense from a business standpoint to do so. On the other hand, it does make sense for an insert manufacturer to spend the money on the testing. There are several manufacturers out there that approve their products to be used in a ZC box because they were willing to step up and spend the money on the testing. The testing is extensive and very expensive!

 

[bholler]

There are several manufacturers out there that approve their products to be used in a ZC box because they were willing to step up and spend the money on the testing. The testing is extensive and very expensive!

Yes but with out the blessing of the manufacturer of the fireplace that testing does not change anything. You still cant go against the instructions for that fireplace. And what standard do those insert manufacturers test to? There is no ul listing for this applications so there is no testing standard.

 

[bholler]

But in this case since the fireplace is made by hearth and home and quad is also hearth and home there would be a possibility that hearth and home may give it their blessing.

 

[billfred]

My local Quad dealer has a call into Quad to see if it will work. My em42 has lovers/vents. I never thought they really did anything.

Either way I'm starting to question all of this. That's a lot of money just to get a more efficient fireplace. $4k for a questionable insert. $5-7k for a total tearout

That's a lot of L.p. gas.

 

[billfred]

One other thing. Is there any need to adjust the flue on my prefab to help with more heat?

 

[bholler]

One other thing. Is there any need to adjust the flue on my prefab to help with more heat?

What do you mean are you talking about shutting the damper some? If so then no you run it wide open until all of the coals are dead.

My em42 has lovers/vents. I never thought they really did anything.

That is what keeps the outside temps down on that box. and if you put an insert in there those vents cannot be obstructed. If you close them off the whole unit could over heat and cause a fire.

 

[webby3650]

Yes but with out the blessing of the manufacturer of the fireplace that testing does not change anything. You still cant go against the instructions for that fireplace. And what standard do those insert manufacturers test to? There is no ul listing for this applications so there is no testing standard.

They put the insert into a prefab fireplace and perform a destruction test while closely monitoring temperatures on all the adjacent combustible materials.

 

[bholler]

They put the insert into a prefab fireplace and perform a destruction test while closely monitoring temperatures on all the adjacent combustible materials.

Ok But what temps are allowable What zc unit is it in? Without a testing standard each company makes it up on their own And i am sure no companies would fudge their numbers or testing procedures to make a little extra money. And they have an easy out on the liability side of things because they all say it must be put into a listed unit. And as soon as you modify that zc unit it is no longer listed so then you are not following either set of instructions and all of the liability falls directly on the installer.

 

[JRHAWK9]

I know this is an old thread, but we have a EM42 and were told by the manufacturer they would not approve an insert and would have to completely remove the fireplace and put an insert in it's place. This meant rebuilding the hearth and masonry around it.

 

[Snakebit12]

I know this is an old thread, but we have a EM42 and were told by the manufacturer they would not approve an insert and would have to completely remove the fireplace and put an insert in it's place. This meant rebuilding the hearth and masonry around it.

At the risk of simply repeating post #6 above...We too had a HnG fireplace and did exactly what you are contemplating because the manufacturer would not approve the use of an insert. We ripped out the HnG, removed a large section of our masonry, installed a ZC wood stove (FPX 44), re-did the masonry and have not looked back. Forum members (to their credit) discouraged me from the insert route. In retrospect, we were given sound advice and made the right decision.

If you remove the HnG, you don't need an insert - there is nothing to "insert" into. I believe that inserts fit inside existing fireplaces - and you won't have an existing fireplace once you remove the HnG.

So, you would install a new fireplace/wood stove. Lots of choices. We looked at Fireplace Extrordinair, Quadrafire, RPS...they all have great reputations. We ended up with the FPX for 2 reasons: 1) the box is huge (we heat 3,000+ sq ft with it) and, more importantly, 2) the PFX was the only line that approved piping in outside air from our ventilated attic (we couldn't reach the outside any other way).

While the FPX fits our needs, I do wish that it had:

1. An ash tray
2. Automatic Combustion Control (like the Quadrafire 7100 which is slick)

If the Quad had allowed us to pull air in from our attic, we might have gone that way but it did not.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[JRHAWK9]

At the risk of simply repeating post #6 above...We too had a HnG fireplace and did exactly what you are contemplating because the manufacturer would not approve the use of an insert. We ripped out the HnG, removed a large section of our masonry, installed a ZC wood stove (FPX 44), re-did the masonry and have not looked back. Forum members (to their credit) discouraged me from the insert route. In retrospect, we were given sound advice and made the right decision.

If you remove the HnG, you don't need an insert - there is nothing to "insert" into. I believe that inserts fit inside existing fireplaces - and you won't have an existing fireplace once you remove the HnG.

So, you would install a new fireplace/wood stove. Lots of choices. We looked at Fireplace Extrordinair, Quadrafire, RPS...they all have great reputations. We ended up with the FPX for 2 reasons: 1) the box is huge (we heat 3,000+ sq ft with it) and, more importantly, 2) the PFX was the only line that approved piping in outside air from our ventilated attic (we couldn't reach the outside any other way).

While the FPX fits our needs, I do wish that it had:

1. An ash tray
2. Automatic Combustion Control (like the Quadrafire 7100 which is slick)

If the Quad had allowed us to pull air in from our attic, we might have gone that way but it did not.

Good luck with your decision.

thanks for the update. It was back in '14 when looking into this. I ended up putting in a wood furnace. Although it still would be nice to remove the fireplace and put in something usable, seeing we don't use the fireplace anymore. It would be nice to have something to use during shoulder seasons and when it gets really cold out so we wouldn't have to run the wood furnace as hard.