Hello the Boiler Room:

kooslf · Mar 5, 2014

I have been avidly reading posts in this forum for several months. I am new to using forums, but am finding this area to be interesting and informative.

I am a 62 year old farmer from eastern Iowa. I grew up in a house with a huge wood fired hot air furnace. Then lived in a house with a wood fired gravity hydronic system where my brother still lives. That system is eighty plus years old, and is still functioning well, and no leaks have developed in the steel piping. For the past thirty or forty years I have lived here on this farm, and have heated the house and shop with two stoves. For years my desire has been to develop a central heating system.

I watched the advent of the outdoor boiler, but was immediately suspicious of the amount of wood needed, and also didn't have the chunk of change it took to set one up. Several years ago I became exposed to Garn, and the Wood Gun. I now think I am about ready to make the leap, and am thinking lamda controls. I am currently considering the Velodux 650, Froling 50, and Lopper 45. I think that the Froling is looking to be the most bang for the buck. The lopper looks real good, but costs about 1/3 more.

As I am gradually becoming informed on this subject, I continue to realize that there is a lot to figure out. If all goes well, I am hoping to get the boiler, heat storage and wood delivery system set up this summer, and may continue with the distribution system into the future. I can do 1000 gals. of upright pressurized storage, and am planning to use a plain steel compression tank, possibly as large as 200 gals. That way there will never be any worries about not enough expansion. I already have some of these components.

I would welcome any comments, especially on choice of boiler. Also, I am wondering if there is some clear or translucent PEX which would work for a sight glass. Or, what other options are out there for keeping track of water level?

I want to thank you all for the interesting and informative comments and posts made here in this forum.

Bob Rohr · Mar 5, 2014

kooslf said:
I have been avidly reading posts in this forum for several months. I am new to using forums, but am finding this area to be interesting and informative.

I am a 62 year old farmer from eastern Iowa. I grew up in a house with a huge wood fired hot air furnace. Then lived in a house with a wood fired gravity hydronic system where my brother still lives. That system is eighty plus years old, and is still functioning well, and no leaks have developed in the steel piping. For the past thirty or forty years I have lived here on this farm, and have heated the house and shop with two stoves. For years my desire has been to develop a central heating system.

I watched the advent of the outdoor boiler, but was immediately suspicious of the amount of wood needed, and also didn't have the chunk of change it took to set one up. Several years ago I became exposed to Garn, and the Wood Gun. I now think I am about ready to make the leap, and am thinking lamda controls. I am currently considering the Velodux 650, Froling 50, and Lopper 45. I think that the Froling is looking to be the most bang for the buck. The lopper looks real good, but costs about 1/3 more.

As I am gradually becoming informed on this subject, I continue to realize that there is a lot to figure out. If all goes well, I am hoping to get the boiler, heat storage and wood delivery system set up this summer, and may continue with the distribution system into the future. I can do 1000 gals. of upright pressurized storage, and am planning to use a plain steel compression tank, possibly as large as 200 gals. That way there will never be any worries about not enough expansion. I already have some of these components.

I would welcome any comments, especially on choice of boiler. Also, I am wondering if there is some clear or translucent PEX which would work for a sight glass. Or, what other options are out there for keeping track of water level?

I want to thank you all for the interesting and informative comments and posts made here in this forum.

I use Uponor HePex for sight tubes on solar DB installations. Connect it with a couple FIP X barb ells and crimp rings. It is a bit cloudy to look through, but once the water gets some color to it, no problem.

You can buy sight glass kits, most HVAC suppliers have them on the shelves. My supplier has long glass and will cut it to the length you need. It costs more, but it is a nice clear gauge and designed for the temperature and pressures you will be using.

Be sure to size the expansion volume, remember the tank will swing from ambient temperature to 190F or higher. Include all the fluid capacity, boiler, tank, piping in the calculation.

Add a tire valve (schrader valve) so you can add air as needed. As the water heats and cools, that captive air will slowly get re-absorbed and vented away thru any automatic air eliminator.

Clarkbug · Mar 5, 2014

You have picked probably some of the cream of the crop of boilers. I believe there is one other lambda boiler that is "common", maybe the Vigas?

But I would pick any of those units any day.

You mentioned you would work on distribution into the future...do you know how you want to set that up? Just fin tube? Radiators? Radiant floor? Those choices can make a difference in the optimal way to configure your system.

kooslf · Mar 6, 2014

Clarkbug said:
You have picked probably some of the cream of the crop of boilers. I believe there is one other lambda boiler that is "common", maybe the Vigas?

But I would pick any of those units any day.

You mentioned you would work on distribution into the future...do you know how you want to set that up? Just fin tube? Radiators? Radiant floor? Those choices can make a difference in the optimal way to configure your system.

Distribution is still up in the air, and could include some of the several types. I currently have on hand almost ninty feet of steel fin tube with 1 1/4 steel pipe center. This may go around two walls of my existing shop. I may add some in slab heat in upcoming additions. The house I am undecided about. Some of my choices may depend on materials which I find. Considering that we have gotten by thusfar with just one stove for each building, I wouldn't expect it wouldn't be too hard to improve on that. I am now the most ignorant about many aspects of distribution but don't understand how that will effect the initial boilerroom setup. I would like to make this system so that it might be able to serve even possibly another building. The shop does not need to be heated at all times, but would expect to keep it above freezing. I am capable of doing most any and all metal fabrication and welding, and should be able to handle all excavation needs. I am still in the very early stages of learning distribution. One of my hopes for this boilerroom is to set up a sort of wood delivery system witch will be able to hold and convey possibly several months supply up to the boiler, and during that time be warmed and dried before being burned. The conveying system could be constructed from a chain and apron system taken from retired farm chopper boxes or manure spreaders. I would expect to continually replenish wood at the starting end with a loader from unheated bulk storage.

maple1 · Mar 6, 2014

Have a feeling that you don't need boilers that capable if you're heating now with two stoves - but if you do go with boilers that big I think I would want a bit more storage.

If you could put several months supply at it, I would just move it all to there with a loader & pallets/pallet jack - conveyors seem to just be an extra step/thing that might not be needed.

We likely aren't getting the whole picture though.

flyingcow · Mar 6, 2014

I think the conveyer thing is cool idea. If you got it, why not use it? Plus if you can weld fabricate and got the means to excavate? Way ahead of the game.

FWIW I have a solo innova that I bought thru the froling company out of Lyme nh. Had very good customer service. That's my experience.

kooslf · Mar 6, 2014

maple1 said:
Have a feeling that you don't need boilers that capable if you're heating now with two stoves - but if you do go with boilers that big I think I would want a bit more storage.

If you could put several months supply at it, I would just move it all to there with a loader & pallets/pallet jack - conveyors seem to just be an extra step/thing that might not be needed.

We likely aren't getting the whole picture though.

The boiler size may be a little overkill, but I would like to reserve some capacity for shop additions, and also, if the shop is cool, and I want to bring it up quickly, having a large boiler may help facilitate that. When I talk about a 200 gal. expansion tank, that is anticipating a possible addition to the storage. Also, It is still a little hard for me to realize that a boiler with what looks to me like a fairly small wood chamber will be able to heat both buildings with two fills per day. The wood conveyor is something I am still working out, but having the wood brought right up to the fill door, and up off the floor seems nice, and having the first in be the first out is also appealing. I am processing my wood differently now, but in the past, we sometimes used a manure spreader with the beaters removed to haul wood to our house storage, and would use the apron to run the wood back. That worked quite well, and makes me want to use that approach here. I expect to be able to open a hatch, and dump the wood directly onto the conveyor with the loader from bulk storage. I hope to cut the handling of the wood down to a minimum. I am getting older, but expect to be in this game a little longer and am trying to make it easy. My son will eventually take this over, so I am keeping him in the loop on this design.

Karl_northwind · Mar 6, 2014

I think a garn 2000 would be right up your alley, and they're made right up the road in Mn. otherwise, Effecta also makes a lambda controlled 60 KW boiler. (full disclosure, I sell Effecta boilers in IA.)

Karl

kooslf · Mar 6, 2014

Karl_northwind said:
I think a garn 2000 would be right up your alley, and they're made right up the road in Mn. otherwise, Effecta also makes a lambda controlled 60 KW boiler. (full disclosure, I sell Effecta boilers in IA.)

Karl

Several years ago, I actually seen a Garn in operation, and also a Wood Gun. I was impressed by how clean burning the Garn was, but it was out of my price range, and I was left with some reservations about the Wood Gun, but I don't quite recall just what they were. Of the three boilers I mentioned, I haven't physically seen any of them. I hadn't seen much about the Effecta in my research, but since you say you sell Effecta's in Iowa, maybe I should at least see one. I think I would rather go with a pressurized system now, which leaves the Garn out, and I have a suitable tank for storage now.

This is my first experience with posting on forums, and I don't use social media, so I may make some blunders through ignorance. Thank you all for the comments and interest thus far. What I have described as my plans or hopes are just that. The plans are subject to revision, and since this project will require an addition to the shop, which I will most likely do myself, the workload of the spring and summer may yet derail my plans.

skfire · Mar 6, 2014

kooslf said:
Several years ago, I actually seen a Garn in operation, and also a Wood Gun. I was impressed by how clean burning the Garn was, but it was out of my price range, and I was left with some reservations about the Wood Gun, but I don't quite recall just what they were. Of the three boilers I mentioned, I haven't physically seen any of them. I hadn't seen much about the Effecta in my research, but since you say you sell Effecta's in Iowa, maybe I should at least see one. I think I would rather go with a pressurized system now, which leaves the Garn out, and I have a suitable tank for storage now.

This is my first experience with posting on forums, and I don't use social media, so I may make some blunders through ignorance. Thank you all for the comments and interest thus far. What I have described as my plans or hopes are just that. The plans are subject to revision, and since this project will require an addition to the shop, which I will most likely do myself, the workload of the spring and summer may yet derail my plans.

welcome to the boiler room and congrats on the research so far.
if there is any info you may require on the froling and associated system components, please feel.free to ask or pm me.
can not go wrong with the choices you mentioned.
good luck Sir.
Scott

BoilerMan · Mar 6, 2014

Welcome again from me! Vey good on you for doing some research and picking some top notch boilers. Most people your age (no offence or sterio types intended) are not nearly as open to the thinking there may be an easier way to burn wood. Way too many people just burn green half split stumps in an air-tight and let the smoke roll. Burning double the volume of wood they would be if they used good equipment and proper burning/seasoning techniques.

Welcome to all things wood and water!

TS

ewdudley · Mar 7, 2014

kooslf said:
I can do 1000 gals. of upright pressurized storage, and am planning to use a plain steel compression tank, possibly as large as 200 gals.

Since you're in the planning stages, if it is at all convenient it would be ideal to put the expansion tank completely above the top of the storage tank. The expansion water line goes from the bottom of the system up to the bottom of the expansion tank. Then another line goes from the top of the storage tank to the top of the expansion tank. To make it work the supply line from the boiler goes vertical and/or sloping slightly upward to the top of storage so that all gas coming out of solution in the boiler goes to the top of storage and then up to the top of the expansion tank. With this type of system gas is vented at system start-up and from then on the system stays completely sealed.

kooslf said:
One of my hopes for this boilerroom is to set up a sort of wood delivery system witch will be able to hold and convey possibly several months supply up to the boiler, and during that time be warmed and dried before being burned. The conveying system could be constructed from a chain and apron system taken from retired farm chopper boxes or manure spreaders. I would expect to continually replenish wood at the starting end with a loader from unheated bulk storage.

I've always envisioned this type of system being outdoors with a roof on top with one or more hatches for filling with spits on one end using a hay elevator, just a glorified corn crib. On the exit end there would be a small bunker shed for scooping up a bucket or two each week with the skidsteer and dumping in the boiler room. I believe you would want to situate two or three forage boxes (enough for two years supply) end-to-end up off the ground two feet or more so the moist cool air can fall away as the wood dries. Slatted sides and slatted floors.

leon · Mar 7, 2014

kooslf said:
I have been avidly reading posts in this forum for several months. I am new to using forums, but am finding this area to be interesting and informative.

I am a 62 year old farmer from eastern Iowa. I grew up in a house with a huge wood fired hot air furnace. Then lived in a house with a wood fired gravity hydronic system where my brother still lives. That system is eighty plus years old, and is still functioning well, and no leaks have developed in the steel piping. For the past thirty or forty years I have lived here on this farm, and have heated the house and shop with two stoves. For years my desire has been to develop a central heating system.

I watched the advent of the outdoor boiler, but was immediately suspicious of the amount of wood needed, and also didn't have the chunk of change it took to set one up. Several years ago I became exposed to Garn, and the Wood Gun. I now think I am about ready to make the leap, and am thinking lamda controls. I am currently considering the Velodux 650, Froling 50, and Lopper 45. I think that the Froling is looking to be the most bang for the buck. The lopper looks real good, but costs about 1/3 more.

As I am gradually becoming informed on this subject, I continue to realize that there is a lot to figure out. If all goes well, I am hoping to get the boiler, heat storage and wood delivery system set up this summer, and may continue with the distribution system into the future. I can do 1000 gals. of upright pressurized storage, and am planning to use a plain steel compression tank, possibly as large as 200 gals. That way there will never be any worries about not enough expansion. I already have some of these components.

I would welcome any comments, especially on choice of boiler. Also, I am wondering if there is some clear or translucent PEX which would work for a sight glass. Or, what other options are out there for keeping track of water level?

I want to thank you all for the interesting and informative comments and posts made here in this forum.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Poking my nose in here:

DONT YELL, I am looking down the road after burning wood for 32 years.

Since you have already looked at the AHS Wood Gun you should also take a serious

look at the AHS Coal Gun. It burns Pea coal and you can use a hot water to air heat exchanger

with zero issues or converted steam radiators with much less work.

You and I are nearly the same age and I am getting away from burning hand fired wood and coal

boiler after thirty two years/lousy winters. After losing good sources of logs and having to resplit everything I buy from

local supplier I have had enough and I will be replacing my old wood amd coal boiler with an S130 Coal Gun

AHS has been making the coal gun for 30 years now and thousands of them are still in use.

kooslf · Mar 7, 2014

ewdudley said:
Since you're in the planning stages, if it is at all convenient it would be ideal to put the expansion tank completely above the top of the storage tank. The expansion water line goes from the bottom of the system up to the bottom of the expansion tank. Then another line goes from the top of the storage tank to the top of the expansion tank. To make it work the supply line from the boiler goes vertical and/or sloping slightly upward to the top of storage so that all gas coming out of solution in the boiler goes to the top of storage and then up to the top of the expansion tank. With this type of system gas is vented at system start-up and then the system stays completely sealed.

I've always envisioned this type of system being outdoors with a roof on top with one or more hatches for filling with spits on one end using a hay elevator, just a glorified corn crib. On the exit end there would be a small bunker shed for scooping up a bucket or two each week with the skidsteer and dumping in the boiler room. I believe you would want to situate two or three forage boxes (enough for two years supply) end-to-end up off the ground two feet or more so the moist cool air can fall away as the wood dries. Slatted sides and slatted floors.

I have been agonizing over the expansion tank thing for some time, and think I am pretty much on the same page as you. The way I get my wood in now is mostly in pole or log form loaded with the tractor onto a trailer made to be convenient for sawing up the poles or logs right on the trailer, and from there either with or without splitting buck them right into open front storage with the skid loader. From there I would like to dump them into the apron of the conveyor to be warmed and additionally dried before arriving in front of the boiler. The conveyor should be able to be powered by a modest size electric motor because it can be geared down to move very slowly. I am actually wishing to have the conveyor made in two sections. The first part being the part I initially load from storage. That conveyor could bring the wood ahead to the spliter where I could split or resplit the wood and pile it on the heated conveyor to be moved up to the boiler. This work I could do in conjunction with firing the boiler, or on days when the weather doesn't favor more pleasant occupations. Sounds like I'm trying to make a simple job complicated! I almost never cut green wood. There are usually enough trees dying or blowing down that I almost always have a choice of partly seasoned wood when I cut it. We usually have some dead red elm here also, and if that stands several years after dying, it will be pretty much cured right on the stump.

kooslf · Mar 9, 2014

Having heated with stoves for a long time, I am used to what I would call a "point heat source". With some natural convection, and some fans, that can be made to be at least a tolerable way of heating. The goal of a modern hydronic system I imagine is to provide an even heat to all locations. I know very little as yet about the nuances of accomplishing that goal. However, I think that in some cases it may be desirable to have regions which are a little too warm where you might warm up after a good freezing outside, or hang up wet coats gloves etc. etc. In describing my wood handling system above, I might wish to build my second wood conveyor with a tubular frame which I could circulate heated water through. In that way, I could warm and dry the upcoming wood supply, and provide a source of somewhat moist warm air to be distributed to other parts of the building. I am thinking the boiler room would be the warmest part of the building, and that this wouldn't be the only source of heat for the building, but why not combine the heating of the building with the conditioning of the new feedstock?

Admittedly, I am new to hydronic heating, and to forums, and hope that my rather definite ideas do not put you readers off. While I have not responded to all comments, I have read them, and am at least thinking about what you have offered. Please feel free to weigh in with any comments or observations you may have.

Thank You
Lloyd

Clarkbug · Mar 9, 2014

I would be a little worried about using that moistened air throughout your home, only because of might be growing on your wood. Could create some mold/mildew/organic-y things that would get blown into your house. Nothing concrete here, just a thought.

As far as a warm-up place, get a cast iron radiator and put it in your mudroom, that works great to warm up and to dry things off. Or, if you went with a radiant floor, you can put double the tubing there, and under the bathroom floor to keep your feet warm in the morning.

Fred61 · Mar 9, 2014

IMHO you're project has turned into a dream with all the visions of the Rube Goldberg machines dancing through your head. You're just going to burn a few sticks of wood to heat your spaces. Your description of the future mechanicals has even excited some of the old timers here. From the description of the space you're going to heat, I suspect your wood usage will be minimal if burned in the top notch boilers you listed above. Even three or four cords of wood is not much when handling 3 or 4 pieces at a time over the course of a heating season. You'll wonder if you did any work at all.

Preheating wood? Wood is low enough in mass if it's dry to warm up enough so your boiler won't know the difference it it's been preheated for one day or one hour and I know your wood will be dry at least in your second year of operation of a gasser if you use marginally seasoned wood the first year.

I suggest you take all the time you will spend building wood conveyers and direct that effort toward insulating which will contribute to even less wood handling.

kooslf · Mar 9, 2014

In reply to the last two posts: The boiler and conveyor will be part of shop, so won't affect house air. Wow, Fred, I take it you suspect I am a little cracked. Well, you may be right, but we do burn quite a lot of wood now. I hope the new boiler would reduce that somewhat, but I may want to heat the shop a lot more than I do now. I may also want to add more space to the building to accommodate some of the equipment that won't fit into the shop now. Also, both buildings could use some tightening up. Oh, and by the way, I do like to invent things, and some of them turn out good, but not all.

Lloyd

BoilerMan · Mar 9, 2014

Don't worry Lloyd, Fred is a little cracked himself..

He's old, and set in his ways. Build the conveyors if you fancy! And show us pictures!

TS

mr.fixit · Mar 9, 2014

Since I live on a side hill,here's what I have in mind for a wood conveyer;
Let gravity do the work getting the wood from the top of the hill down to the boiler shed.
Build a slide constructed of corrugated steel,with a cover of clear polycarbonate sheeting,open on the sides.
Split the wood up on the top of the hill,(where the woods are)and send it down the slide,piece after piece until the slide is completely full.

So now,how long would the slide have to be so I could fill it at the top with green splits in the spring and get dry splits in the fall down in the boiler shed? My lot is probably not long enough.

Fred61 · Mar 9, 2014

kooslf said:
In reply to the last two posts: The boiler and conveyor will be part of shop, so won't affect house air. Wow, Fred, I take it you suspect I am a little cracked. Well, you may be right, but we do burn quite a lot of wood now. I hope the new boiler would reduce that somewhat, but I may want to heat the shop a lot more than I do now. I may also want to add more space to the building to accommodate some of the equipment that won't fit into the shop now. Also, both buildings could use some tightening up. Oh, and by the way, I do like to invent things, and some of them turn out good, but not all.

Lloyd

I never said you were cracked and I never go after anyone personally but just to show you how flexible I am I'm going to stand with TS and back your conveyor project while you leave your heating space uninsulated.

kooslf · Mar 9, 2014

mr.fixit said:
Since I live on a side hill,here's what I have in mind for a wood conveyer;
Let gravity do the work getting the wood from the top of the hill down to the boiler shed.
Build a slide constructed of corrugated steel,with a cover of clear polycarbonate sheeting,open on the sides.
Split the wood up on the top of the hill,(where the woods are)and send it down the slide,piece after piece until the slide is completely full.

So now,how long would the slide have to be so I could fill it at the top with green splits in the spring and get dry splits in the fall down in the boiler shed? My lot is probably not long enough.

Since I have been taking a little heat for some of my screwball ideas, I will pick on yours. Depending on your situation, maybe a slide could seem like an attractive idea. However as I see it, you would want the slide steep enough that when you started to take wood away in the fall, you would expect the wood above to feed down as you continued to remove wood. The problem I see with this idea, is that when you first start to fill this slide, the first wood sent down will pick up so much speed that it will destroy anything in its path down at the bottom. I think the balance between not having the wood slide at all, and the wood picking up excessive speed would be pretty much unmanageable. Also, if you did get it successfully filled, and it would feed down, even then, if something got out of hand and that river of wood started moving, it might again prove to be a very dangerous situation at the bottom. My ideas, might not make any sense, but this slide thing I'm afraid could be downright dangerous.

Since I like to dream things up, and invent new and novel ways of doing things, I don't want to discourage you, but this idea needs some thought.

Lloyd

mr.fixit · Mar 9, 2014

It's a hill,not a mountain.
If anything the pieces of wood would need some pushing to get them to the bottom.

kooslf · Mar 10, 2014

Boiler sizing, insulation, dreams:
I haven't really attempted to do an energy audit. I know that both of my buildings have some issues. Where do I start first? My shop is about 1200 sq. ft., is insulated, but has some leaks, and some defects in insulation. Some of that is planned to be rectified this summer. The house is approx. 1500 sq. ft. and also has some issues, but will remain unimproved for now. I would like to make the shop bigger, and hope to improve the insulation issue with succeding upgrades. There may be a chance of adding an additional residence. I am of the opinion that as long as I have adequate heat storage, the boiler can be bigger than needed, without ill effects. I would rather do this once and have the boiler a little too big, than too small. In dreaming about wood supply for the boiler, I am reminded of my old friend now dead who in his eightys was still getting wood into his house on his walker. He had backup heat, but still did most of his heating with wood. Like him, I may get help putting up the wood, but plan to be here into old age. If my system was set up to be supper easy, I could probably keep the heat going until I was pretty dilapidated. Even if still healthy, who will complain if he doesn't have to pick up and carry wood? I rehabbed the house about forty years ago, and built the shop a few years later. On the shop, I did the cement work, cut the trees, helped mill the lumber, and built the building myself. I didn't have any real training in carpentry, so it didn't turn out perfect, but has served pretty well. This is a small farm with a total output of about 50 feeder cattle per year. I have kind of built things up as I went, and now pretty much have an adequate supply of machinery, and also some excavating equipment. This year I hope to upgrade my heating system and shop somewhat. I still am feeding my calves from last year, but expect good returns. As you may all know, beef prices are now going through the roof. I expect this will go on for a couple of years until the market adjusts.

NP ALASKA · Mar 10, 2014

Just my two cents:

I live in North Pole, Alaska

I have owned and operated the Effecta 60KW with pellet option for 1 1/2 winter now.
Only 1350 gallons of storage, should have been 2000.

I was/am very pleased the appearance and workmanship that went into the construction of the unit, as well as the systems overall performance.

I am heating 4800 sq. feet and have only burned oil when exercising the oil boiler as it serves as back up. I fire it once a month for a few minutes as part of my checks and balances.

Regards,

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