Thought I wanted a CB boiler

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alha

New Member
Apr 27, 2015
13
Twin Cities, MN
Hello everyone, I just found your site, and it's been great reading and information, but a bit overwhelming! I'll explain my situation, and see if you guys can make some comments and suggestions. This may be a little long winded, but please bare with me. It all started at the MN state fair, oh probably about 8-10 years or so ago, where on machinery hill they have places showing all kinds of things, and that included a couple brands of outdoor boilers. Being a hands on guy who loves 'stuff', I swung in and had a talk with them, they told me about their boilers, I thought it was kind of neat but a little 'out there' for my situation at the time, and went on my way. I go to the fair prob every 2-3 years, and seem to stop back and chat each time. Well, last year, I had an epiphany, and thought that maybe this was the year for me, because of the changes in my situation.

I have a mid 1960's 2 story colonial, 2900 sq/ft, orig windows,130k btu 94% efficient NG forced air furnace. I also built a 23x37 workshop out in the back yard, which I put wirsbo into, and am almost finished constructing (but don't have any of the heating equipment in yet, just the piping coming out of the floor going into the manifold at this point). I am also in the beginning stages of building a 2 story storage shed/playhouse sitting on cement columns and 3 8x8 beams(it's on a hill), it's 12'x16', 2x6 framed, was spray foamed under the lower level floor before the deck was placed as a single unit on the 3 beams, is fully insulated, and has wirsbo on both levels. From the spot where I had planned on installing the OWB, it is about a 125' or so run to the workshop, a 15' run to the storage shed, and about a 90' run to the house, plus whatever it takes to get it inside, maybe 10-20' on the bigger buildings. The line to the house goes one direction, the line to the workshop going in another direction would probably end up passing under the storage shed.

As it turns out, I may be in the situation where there's this friend of a friend that _may_ be able to get me one scratch and dent discounted from the factory, and save a few thousand on it. I was thinking that the e3200 would be decently sized for my situation (as I like to make things a little bigger/better than undersized/cheaper, but only if it makes sense of course), but then I came across this site, and all my presuppositions are quickly going out the window. First of all, the expensive pre made piping I initially thought was so great may not be the best way to go, esp in MN, as it seems that ppl have been using the foamed in trench method with better success. Also, from reading, it sounds like the CB brand has issues honoring their warranties, which is a Huge red flag for me. I spent a number of years doing appliance repair, and I have first hand experience with companies, and how they do or don't honor their warranties, and the indigestion that causes. It wouldn't be as big a deal on a $700-1000 dishwasher, but on a $10000+ heater, that is another matter entirely, because I can't imagine serious repairs on something like this come cheap.

From reading, there are a number of opinions on different makes that I've read, and the main reason I am doing this because I have access to unlimited 'free' wood, all I have to do (yeah, minor stuff, I know...) is cut, split, stack and dry it, and then load it into the furnace. I would only do an outdoor furnace, or not at all, I'm not interested in having one inside the house. I also read a little about the shoulder periods, which I honestly never even thought about, because in my mind all you did was go out and toss in a full load of wood every day or 2 from fall when you fired it up till spring when you shut it down, and that's all there was to it. Yeah, right, not so much. I also thought that it just ran at full tilt all the time, looks like wrong again. Turns out there's a lot more to it than just paying the NG bill every month. I knew that of course, but really didn't appreciate the scope of the project, nor the care and feeding.

Here are my (initial) questions. Is the boiler I am looking at properly sized for my application? Is CB in 2015 a decently designed outdoor boiler (you would think so, based upon their price...?), how do you deal with the shoulder seasons? I am planning on this being the primary heat source, and having the current NG furnace as the backup, if we go on a vaca, or I can't for whatever reason feed the hungry beast. Is 1 1/4 or 1 1/2" lines sufficient for my climate and BTU needs, or is bigger always better, and if so up to what point? Also what do you do to it when you shut it down in the spring, anything special to know? Any other things after reading this that you think I should consider would be great to hear about as well. As I said, this is turning out to be much more involved than I had initially expected, but definitely well within my skillset to implement, just need the background knowledge to be sure to spend all that money wisely, and to only do it Once!

Thanks everyone for reading this 'book', any comments/suggestions are greatly appreciated.
 
Understanding you don't want a boiler in your house - have you considered an indoor boiler in one of your outbuildings? Maybe with storage in your house? And the winters wood inside, warm & dry, with the boiler?

That makes shoulder season easy - you just operate as usual, batch burning to heat storage, you just don't have to burn as often or as much when you do. And gets you much reduced wood consumption & cleaner burning compared to a standard OWB.

Shoulder season with a standard OWB would likely be smaller more frequent loads - or increased smoldering.

Not overly familiar with the E3200 or CB in general, so can't add much on those questions.
 
Thanks for the reply, and the idea. Unfortunately, the way both of those buildings are set up, it really wouldn't work out, but the thought of having warm wood, and adding it inside instead of out in -35 weather in the dead of winter does sound appealing, but unfortunately it wouldn't work. You mentioned increased smoldering, I take it that this is a bad thing, because of the lack of heat, and ability to catalyze the gasses making the unit much more smoky? If more frequent, any guesses as to how much more, if in normal times it'd be once a day or so I was told? 2x, or even more?
 
Boy.. just off the top of my head.. comparing NG and efficient at that to Wood.. That's a tough row to hoe. Even with 'free' wood.

Now.. adding multiple buildings, that starts to play better to ONE of the out buildings having a boiler and storage in it. Or boiler in an outbuilding with a few cords of wood.. then piped into the home where water storage is located. You want your 'losses' from a hot boiler to be in a space where it's 'gains' heat for the outbuilding. With an outdoor boiler.. all of your heat loss is trying to heat Minnesota!

No matter what route you take.. Start cutting and splitting wood NOW. You want to have 3 years wood cut, split, and stacked! If you do that.. you'll like whatever system you use better. If life changes and you don't do the boiler.. you can sell the dry wood. Oak is a good 3 years to dry. Other stuff is likely 2 years. ONLY time AFTER being split counts.

Welcome to the land of firewood nuts.

JP
 
Thanks for the advice. I really don't have space in the shed for anything like that, and I'd be giving up so much precious space in my workshop if I put in a boiler with storage.. Is storage a real necessity for this type of system? I get it that it's a buffer, but a 1000 gallon tank has to be pretty big, and I just don't have space to spare in it. I already wish I had built it 30x40, but that's water long under the bridge at this point. I have maybe 1/2 to a year supply already split, but it's in piles, so probably hasn't dried as well yet as it could have if it had been properly stacked, but at least it's a start. And thanks for the welcome, you guys seem to be a great bunch. Glad I found you, I think I'm going to be getting a little nuts about this as I go along as well.
 
Everything has its opportunity cost.

Free wood is not free. EVER!

I have commented previously on situations like yours
with large buildings and heat loads and I will tell you the same
thing.

For the amount of work you need to to building a wood stockpile for a forest eater
it all depends. Is your wife going out in the middle of the night to feed
the forest eater willingly??? Unless she has a pack of German Shepards that
will go out with her at three in the morning it may be a no issue.

I would advise you to visit YouTube and type in outdoor wood boiler in the
search box and you will find videos of one owner that discusses his outdoor
wood boiler and you will have more to think about.

Me, I have had enough after doing the firewood thing after 33 years, falling on ice
and breaking my nose and I am switching to a Keystoker KAA-4-1 coal stoker boiler
which uses anthracite rice coal.

A keystoker is small in comparison to an outdoor wood boiler and responds faster
to needed heat demand and does not require a large volume of water.

Visit You tube and type in outdoor wood boiler then head over to the
www.nepacrossroads.com coal burning forum and read then decide.

A ton of anthracite rice coal will provide you with 82-86 million BTU's of heating
energy.

There are keystoker owners in your part of the country also.


Sorry if I ruined your evening, but I am not sorry I am getting away from firewood.
 
Thanks for the advice. I really don't have space in the shed for anything like that, and I'd be giving up so much precious space in my workshop if I put in a boiler with storage.. Is storage a real necessity for this type of system? I get it that it's a buffer, but a 1000 gallon tank has to be pretty big, and I just don't have space to spare in it. I already wish I had built it 30x40, but that's water long under the bridge at this point. I have maybe 1/2 to a year supply already split, but it's in piles, so probably hasn't dried as well yet as it could have if it had been properly stacked, but at least it's a start. And thanks for the welcome, you guys seem to be a great bunch. Glad I found you, I think I'm going to be getting a little nuts about this as I go along as well.

It doesn't have to take up a whole lot of space. The boiler itself is pretty small. The storage - I have 660 gallons in a footprint about 4'x10' (two 330 gallon tanks (30"x9') stacked plus extra for insulation & piping room). The wood - that could go in a lean-to built on next to your boiler. But I have my entire winters wood and boiler and storage in my basement, takes up about 14' x 20' or thereabouts. Wouldn't have it any other way - but if we didn't want it all in the basement, I would build an outbuilding for it all rather than do an OWB. If you spread the components around (e.g. storage in house), the space thing can usually be alleviated.

The thread title implies you are having second thoughts about an OWB - are you considering another alternative choice and what would that be? Or are you rather looking for that alternative here? Which ever way you end up going with whatever, as long as you take everything into consideration when you make that decision, that is good. I think that is the main thing with this place - seen quite a few pass through here after making the wrong choice & not knowing what other choices they could have made. I was almost in that boat, found this place just in time & couldn't be happier.

I will say though that if NG was available here, I might not be using wood at all even though I have unlimited access to it.
 
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I will say though that if NG was available here, I might not be using wood at all even though I have unlimited access to it.

That's what I was trying to say in my first post. Just my 'labor' cost.. saws, splitter, tractor time and diesel.... I'd likely have a wood stove in one of the outbuildings just for a bit of temporary heat when needed.
 
I'd also admit that Leon has a point - if one had a ready supply of decent coal in their area. We don't, even with the past history of coal mining around here. There is even a big area 15 minutes away from me that was cleared of trees this past winter in early prep for a possible new strip mine - but can't buy the stuff. Only thing I would be leery of there is the ash handling aspect.

Never know what the future will bring though, so I'm not ruling anything out for future changes/diversifications just yet.
 
That's what I was trying to say in my first post. Just my 'labor' cost.. saws, splitter, tractor time and diesel.... I'd likely have a wood stove in one of the outbuildings just for a bit of temporary heat when needed.
Not to pile on.

We have a geothermal furnace, which is about on par with NG cost wise to run due to the low cost of NG. It costs me a few dollars more a BTU to run my geo but I can just walk over to the thermostat and turn it up. I don't have to worry about splitting, stacking, feeding the beast, and depreciation of saws etc. We do burn some wood when it does get <20F. I would high recommend going to this site and doing a fuel comparison. I think you will be surprised that the NG will cost you about as much as burning wood without the headaches.
 
Geo usually loses out on the capital cost factor - or at least it did with my evaluation. Mine was a retrofit situation though, and would have required an overhaul of my distribution system. Even then, I think I was looking at $20k before getting into the distribution side. Also heard some local feedback from new Geo owners that their power bills were higher than they were expecting - not sure how reliable that info was as they didn't want to spill the beans on their actual numbers. That all might come down to site specific issues - like e.g. wells vs. closed loop.
 
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Geo usually loses out on the capital cost factor - or at least it did with my evaluation. Mine was a retrofit situation though, and would have required an overhaul of my distribution system. Even then, I think I was looking at $20k before getting into the distribution side. Also heard some local feedback from new Geo owners that their power bills were higher than they were expecting - not sure how reliable that info was as they didn't want to spill the beans on their actual numbers. That all might come down to site specific issues - like e.g. wells vs. closed loop.

Not to go too far off topic.

Geo vs NG = NG wins at the current rates. If you AC a lot, then I bet a geo system would have a better payback. Since the OP is in Minnesota, it would not make sense to invest in a geo system since he / she is in a mostly heat dominated climate.

Geo vs propane = Ask the folks who paid $5 a gallon a few winters ago. ;) Propane would need to be <.85 cents a gallon. Geo wins hands down.

We added 50% more square footage to our house when we put the geo in and our electric bills over the summer were LOWER than what they were the year before. We AC about 3 - 4 months out of year here. My electric bill in the winter is about $20 - $30 more a month than previous but I would probably of spent that much on propane. My geo also supplements my hot water heater. My system only cost me 2k more than what a conventional heat pump / propane furnace would of cost.

I have had mine for over 3 years and I have had no issues. My neighbor has had his over 10 years without any issues. We both have a correctly designed closed loop systems. A lot of folks run into issues because their system was not properly designed for their situation.

Back on topic.

For the OP. I would look into a couple good pellet or wood burning stoves for your buildings as @JP11 suggested. Or maybe even a couple heaters that run off of NG.
 
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The thread title implies you are having second thoughts about an OWB - are you considering another alternative choice and what would that be? Or are you rather looking for that alternative here? Which ever way you end up going with whatever, as long as you take everything into consideration when you make that decision, that is good. I think that is the main thing with this place - seen quite a few pass through here after making the wrong choice & not knowing what other choices they could have made. I was almost in that boat, found this place just in time & couldn't be happier.
You're right, I think I kind of am, but am really into the info gathering mode at this moment. The comment above about if the wife would ever feed it (I let out a little laugh when I read that one) umm, no. As you stated, I really am here to try and make the proper decision. I'm in decent shape, and don't mind a bit of work now and again, but from some of the comments I really need to keep the whole ownership aspect in mind. Yes, I do have the time to spare for making the quantity of wood I'd need, but then, even free there is a cost to it all, as time is essentially money. Plus wear and tear on the equipment, etc. I do have the ability to fairly easily run NG to the workshop, and even to the shed, but not sure if I want to go with separate water heaters for both buildings, one big one outdoors sounded so much easier, esp if it didn't take up any valuable space in either building, and not having to buy multiple sets of equipment for each building (heaters, pumps, all that jazz).

I hit youtube and checked out a vid of pros and cons (that particular one wasn't all that informative, I'll keep looking for more on the subject), and also viewed a few others on OWB's, as well as reading a number of comments on the videos. Maybe I am just seeing the negative, but there seems to be a theme I've noticed of comments about warranty issues with Central Boilers, for example leaking after a couple years, less than adequate offers of repairs of said unit, things like that. I'm wondering if people here could give me their first hand experiences with them. As I said, I had worked in the appliance repair field, and one brand I worked on was Subzero. I remember reading Consumers Reports where they had a blurb once on high end fridges, and the recommendation was made to avoid them due to repair issues. Well, they have one of the best warranties in the business, and the sample size they must have had made the conclusions statistically inaccurate. They make one of the best fridges out there. Do they have issues? Of course, it's made by man, but from my experience less than other brands, and if within their generous warranty period, are covered. My point is that some people having issues may indicate there is a problem with the brand, or depending on the number of units out there, they also could be the squeaky wheel. Of course hearing that they don't honor their warranty does raise serious concerns, and if I was one of the unlucky folks who got a bad one, I'd be pretty pissed as well. That's why I'd like to hear both happy and unhappy owners of that brand, especially ones with the E series, and let me know how long you've owned it, and if you were happy with the whole purchase/install/operation of it.
 
Are the two out buildings close to one another? you could do just ONE more NG boiler.. and share via a good 'foam in trench' line. If I had NG available.. I'd have let my trees get harvested for someone else's wood.

JP
 
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Well, they are about 100' apart, so a foamed trench would def be possible. I am sort of getting the feeling from some of the discussion that I may be wasting my time, what with NG available and all that. It almost seems that heating this way is done by people because this is the least bad choice, burning wood that is. Maybe I had this misguided romantic (?) notion about being somewhat self sufficient, and would save a bunch of money (over the long run was the thought) on my NG bills each winter, if you exclude the $ value of time. As I've never had a unit like this, I probably don't appreciate all that goes into keeping the heat on, so I guess maybe I need to take some more time, and try reading more threads about the actual experience of owning and operating one of these things.
 
Contacted Minnegasco, here is the history they sent me, and as you can see, last winter was a bit colder than this year, but this would represent a decent average in costs. Only water heating and furnace are gas, all other appliances are electric.

READ DATE BILL DATE DAYS READING USAGE BILL AMT
04/20/2015 04/22/2015 33 2865 94THM $76.07
03/18/2015 03/23/2015 29 2784 163THM $130.62
02/17/2015 02/20/2015 29 2644 183THM $142.33
01/19/2015 01/22/2015 33 2487 226THM $183.96
12/17/2014 12/22/2014 30 2292 167THM $144.09
11/17/2014 11/20/2014 32 2148 106THM $95.99
10/16/2014 10/21/2014 29 2056 30THM $35.74
09/17/2014 09/22/2014 30 2030 16THM $23.85
08/18/2014 08/21/2014 31 2016 16THM $23.89
07/18/2014 07/23/2014 31 2002 15THM $23.86
06/17/2014 06/20/2014 32 1989 17THM $25.16
05/16/2014 05/21/2014 29 1974 53THM $54.24
04/17/2014 04/22/2014 30 1928 105THM $113.04
03/18/2014 03/21/2014 29 1837 173THM $187.28
02/17/2014 02/20/2014 31 1687 237THM $197.54
01/17/2014 01/22/2014 32 1480 220THM $169.25
12/16/2013 12/20/2013 31 1288 182THM $136.39
11/15/2013 11/20/2013 30 1128 83THM $69.15


Hmm, weird, in the edit screen, it's formatted perfectly, but when it hits the site, it apparently removed any extra spaces, and the formatting is whacked. oh well, you get an idea anyways.
 
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Probably not many would consider wood with access to NG, the savings would be very small and the pay back very long if at all.
 
so for 12 months starting in nov 2013 through one of the coldest winters in decades, you averaged under 90.00 dollars a month for the whole year. i would not even own an axe or look at a tree if i could heat at those prices. if you really want to play with wood start cutting, splitting and stacking now, and selling buy the cord in fall. this will pay your ng bill and then some.
 
True, but this doesn't include heating the workshop or the other outbuilding yet, they won't be on line till the coming fall/winter. I would expect the bill to be up at least 50% if not more, would your assessment still hold true? I guess you were looking at the yearly averages, I was looking at the nearly $200 monthly bills in the peak times in the dead of winter, when wood would reduce that to almost nothing. I'd still run NG the rest of the year when the boiler would be shut down. That's why I posted here, to get honest opinions, and to see if my reasoning makes sense or not. $800-1100/yr would make the straight financial payback on a $12k installed unit about 11-12 years, plus need to consider the care and feeding of the unit in the equation as well I suppose.
 
11 year payback.. with FREE labor! Run, run away. Your NG bills are so small compared to what others pay for propane, or heating oil. You likely couldn't even buy cordwood and make it work. Then you'd still have stacking, feedings and ash removal.

I'd go for a small Modine type heater running on NG in the shops. If you aren't going to heat them 24/7.. even better savings.

JP
 
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Couple clarifications, I would get the wood logs for free, usually 5-10 footers, but would have to cut it down to firebox size, and then of course split, stack, dry, feed the boiler and clean the ash, so yeah, there is some bit of work to do that's true. I already have wirsbo in the floor of both buildings, and I plan on doing a lot of woodworking in the larger one, and didn't want an overhead heater blowing dust everywhere, especially when staining and such, that's why I installed it in the slab before I poured it. I also have it in the floor of the shed, and do plan on heating both all winter, though the lower level of the shed is just being kept probably in the mid 40's to mid 50s, but the upper level will vary from the mid 50's when not occupied to prob around 70ish when I'm working out there. The larger one has sewer and water ran out to it, the smaller will have just water, though I plan on draining the lines to that one every fall, as they weren't installed to be freeze proof like the workshop. Boy, from the feedback I'm getting, it looks like an outdoor boiler may not be the wisest move, regardless of the cost of the fuel.
 
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Yeah.. sorry.. to pee on your cheerios some more....

you aren't going to heat the slab up 'when you're out there'

If I turn my thermostat in the garage from 60 to 70.. it takes near a day!

Radiant is great for efficiency. It's not much for setback. If you're saying you'll use the shop this week, but not next week.. that would work ok. Day to day.. forget it. It wouldn't cool down fast, and doesn't heat up fast. A wood boiler, water storage take up room, and take labor. A small NG boiler, and foam in trench pipe... I bet that costs you half as much as wood boiler, and takes up 1/10th the floor space.

JP
 
Yeah, thinking about that, you're right, it'll be pretty much be set at whatever temp I want it to be, because I plan on working out there on a regular basis. Oh well, consider my Cheerios pee'd in. Guess I'll run that NG line out there this summer, and start looking for a decent efficiency boiler that can handle both buildings. Anyone have any experience with them, who could steer me in the right direction? I know this forum is the antithesis of that, but I also know ppl have many life experiences, so it doesn't hurt to ask...
 
Hey.. glad to help you thresh out the idea. Just how dumb would you feel if you came here AFTER spending 12 to 15 for a boiler. :)

Just think.. some other guy might learn from this thread too.

JP
 
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