Wood insert in Seattle

sunshine · Sep 15, 2015

Hello,

I am looking for a wood burning insert to install into an open fireplace. Now I am in the spiral of "Am I going to save any heating cost with an insert? or just stay with a gas furnace?" because I don't have an access to free wood. I live in Seattle, WA. 2200sqf house built in 1940's. Less than adequate insulation, not very open floor plan, windows were updated. the Main floor is in a L shape configuration. Fireplace is in the living room (400sqf) with 13ft vaulted ceiling (has a ceiling fan) which is connected to kitchen and dinning (300sqf) with a doorway, then a master bedroom (300sqf) is to the side of the kitchen/dining area. Stirs to the 2nd floor is in the living room. 2 bed rooms and a bath room on the 2nd floor. There are another stirs off the living room to the basement. I understand that I can't heat the basement from the main floor, and I also don't mind the master bedroom to be cooler (I always close the door between the master and the dining area because I don't want my bedroom smell like a bacon.) My chimney is on the exterior wall and is about 15 ft tall.

I did some search in this forum and narrowed down to Lopi Cape Cod/declaration, FXP Elite 33, Hearth stone Clydesdale. (Due to clearance issue, I want a flush mount. I don't want to modify the fireplace or hearth).

Do you think even my house (poor insulation, non open floor layout) can be benefited with a fireplace insert?

Z33 · Sep 15, 2015

If it were me and I were buying wood to heat with I would stick with natural gas. It sounds like you have several things working against you. The first being your layout, second being your insulation. Those two factors are probably going to make you unhappy trying to heat with wood.

If it were me I would invest the money you would spend on a stove to tighten up your house and add insulation where possible .

jatoxico · Sep 15, 2015

Briefly, if you enjoy having a fire, an insert will allow you to enjoy your fireplace while adding meaningful heat to the envelope of the house.

I do not try to heat w/ wood exclusively but probably save 25-30% of my heating bill burning nights and weekends. It's even more if you consider that I heat the house to a much higher temp than I would w/o the insert. Naturally your payback time will be longer if you're buying all your wood but there is a quality of life aspect as well.

As you probably read, an open fireplace may actually result in a net loss of heat from the home so if you intend or would like to burn anyway get the insert if you can swing it.

If your goal is to save as much money as fast as possible then insulating first may offer more bang for the buck. An energy audit would help in that case.

jscs.moore · Sep 15, 2015

I think jatoxico said it very well. I'm also about ready to pull the trigger on a wood insert for supplemtal heating and I look at it the same way. I'm not naive, I don't believe burning a wood insert is goining to cut 50% or 60% off my winter heating bill...but do believe the wood insert will greatly improve quality of life by providing much more warmth to envelope most of the first floor living space in the bitter cold winter months (I live in a 2 story Center Hall Colonial). I live in Eastern PA, and have an electric heat pump so I don't want my family (with two small children) to be sitting around in double layer clothing all winter because we're afraid to turn up the electric heat due to the cost. I also believe an insert can provide a good source of heat during power outages, my neighbor has an insert and swears by it...especially since our whole development has only electric heat! Anyway, I do look at it as a quality of life issue.

billb3 · Sep 15, 2015

jatoxico said:
As you probably read, an open fireplace may actually result in a net loss of heat from the home .

So thousands of years of heating tepees with an open fire didn't work ?

Highbeam · Sep 15, 2015

billb3 said:
So thousands of years of heating tepees with an open fire didn't work ?

He didn't say anything about an open fire in a tepee, a fireplace in a house can actually cool it.

jatoxico · Sep 15, 2015

billb3 said:
So thousands of years of heating tepees with an open fire didn't work ?

Houses ain't tee pees. Standing directly in front of the fire you feel the radiant warmth but if you are sending volumes of already heated air up the chimney then yes you can be losing in that situation.

billb3 · Sep 15, 2015

Highbeam said:
He didn't say anything about an open fire in a tepee, a fireplace in a house can actually cool it.

So people should install fireplaces for air conditioners. <- incorrect result of the above fallacy.

I heated a house with an open fireplace for two Winters.
Not once did the inside temp ever drop lower than the outside temp.

There's no such thing as a net loss.
An open fireplace may be horribly inefficient with numbers around 10-20 percent but not zero and certainly not negative.

-and a teepee is most certainly a house by definition.

Highbeam · Sep 15, 2015

If you're going to get ticky tacky then read carefully, a fireplace CAN cool a house if you open the front door and the chimney pulls that extremely cold outside air in. It is possible to add heat to the house with a fireplace as well.

sunshine · Sep 15, 2015

Wow, thank you everyone!!
We bought this house 2 years ago. 1st winter was cold but afraid to crank up the gas heating due to the cost. We consulted with an energy audid guy before 2nd winter and he mentioned there some limitations to insulate fully because of the structure of the house. (ex. Not much attick space due to vaulted ceiling. ) We never attempted to HEAT the house with a open fireplace knowing it's not very efficient.

Quality of life, that's it. Right now we are not very comfortable in the house. And i don't know how much "warmth" i can get from gas furnace compare to a wood insert. I am not expecting to wood replace the gas furnace and now even willing to spend some extra heating cost to improve our quality of life. Last winter, I used to say "Kids, dinner is ready! Get your sweater and come down." Upstir kids room and a basement are usually warmer than the main floor

jatoxico · Sep 15, 2015

billb3 said:
So people should install fireplaces for air conditioners. <- incorrect result of the above fallacy.

I heated a house with an open fireplace for two Winters.
Not once did the inside temp ever drop lower than the outside temp.

There's no such thing as a net loss.
An open fireplace may be horribly inefficient with numbers around 10-20 percent but not zero and certainly not negative.

-and a teepee is most certainly a house by definition.

Boy your really lining up the facts to fit your story. First off no one said a using an open fireplace will result in a net heat loss only that it could, but it is a real possibility.

An open fireplace can be 10-20% efficient while the fire is burning but can be less (many sources quote a max of only 10% but whatever). But if someone is heating the rest of his house to 65 deg with a central system and has a 5% efficient fireplace that is sucking 400 cfm of heated air out from all parts of the house, that air must be replaced with outside air and you can have a net loss since the furnace is running more than it would w/o the fire burning. The extent of the loss in dollars depends on how expensive the furnace or whatever is to run.This especially true when the fire is burning down so giving little or no heat but good draft has been established.

jatoxico · Sep 15, 2015

sunshine said:
Wow, thank you everyone!!
We bought this house 2 years ago. 1st winter was cold but afraid to crank up the gas heating due to the cost. We consulted with an energy audid guy before 2nd winter and he mentioned there some limitations to insulate fully because of the structure of the house. (ex. Not much attick space due to vaulted ceiling. ) We never attempted to HEAT the house with a open fireplace knowing it's not very efficient.

Quality of life, that's it. Right now we are not very comfortable in the house. And i don't know how much "warmth" i can get from gas furnace compare to a wood insert. I am not expecting to wood replace the gas furnace and now even willing to spend some extra heating cost to improve our quality of life. Last winter, I used to say "Kids, dinner is ready! Get your sweater and come down." Upstir kids room and a basement are usually warmer than the main floor

My guess is that you'll really enjoy it and an insert can throw a lot of heat. When I'm running my oil fired furnace does not need to come on and it gets cold here. Whether, and how much money you save depends on how much you end up having to pay for wood vs. what you pay for gas but the quality of wood heat is outstanding.

begreen · Sep 15, 2015

A good insert installation will run about $5000 in Seattle. It will provide a nice deep warmth and fire. But for heating in the city your best investment may be to have insulation blown into the walls, seal up leaks and to beef up the attic insulation. If the furnace is an older 80% efficient unit, upgrade it to a modern condensing unit at 95% efficiency. Natural gas is fairly reasonable for heating and is clean burning. Also, if you went with wood you will need an area to store it and it will cost about $300+/cord delivered in the city. Getting truly seasoned wood at this time of year can be difficult.

branchburner · Sep 15, 2015

billb3 said:
There's no such thing as a net loss.
An open fireplace may be horribly inefficient with numbers around 10-20 percent but not zero and certainly not negative.

If you were trying to produce a net loss with a fireplace, you could, and without even trying you can ceratainly lose money if you factor in another heat source:

"Field trials conducted by the Combustion and Carbonization Research Laboratory (CCRL) of fireplaces in Canadian homes, in conjunction with other combustion equipment, have shown that in all but one case, on cold winter days, use of conventional masonry fireplaces actually resulted in an increase in fossil-fuel consumption for heating. The fireplaces actually had a negative energy efficiency during the tests.

In the exception where a fireplace did reduce fossil-fuel consumption, the fireplace was situated opposite from the house thermostat. Without glass doors, the fireplace’s infrared radiation fooled the thermostat into thinking the house temperature was satisfied, while allowing the rest of the house to become quite cold."

Bigg_Redd · Sep 15, 2015

Z33 said:
If it were me and I were buying wood to heat with I would stick with natural gas. It sounds like you have several things working against you. The first being your layout, second being your insulation. Those two factors are probably going to make you unhappy trying to heat with wood.

If it were me I would invest the money you would spend on a stove to tighten up your house and add insulation where possible .

Bam

Bigg_Redd · Sep 15, 2015

billb3 said:
So thousands of years of heating tepees with an open fire didn't work ?

It might have worked, sortov, but clearly it didn't work well enough to not be ditched at the first opportunity.

branchburner · Sep 15, 2015

sunshine said:
Now I am in the spiral of "Am I going to save any heating cost with an insert? or just stay with a gas furnace?"

Unless you enjoy burning quite often, if you factor in the initial cost of insert/liner along with cost of wood, it will take a while to recoup costs. Also, unless you plan to buy next year's wood this year and season it (and repeat that process every year), I would not proceed. Poorly seasoned wood will not be any cheaper, but will provide less heat and more frustration.

billb3 · Sep 15, 2015

Bigg_Redd said:
It might have worked, sortov, but clearly it didn't work well enough to not be ditched at the first opportunity.

Open fire and teepee are still used by Sami, Nenets and Khants.

begreen · Sep 15, 2015

Back in the 70's a friend built a very nice large teepee to live in. It was great in the summer. He went a few weeks into winter trying to heat with an open fire. After the first cold snap an Ashley Columbian went in and stayed in.

billb3 · Sep 15, 2015

jatoxico said:
Boy your really lining up the facts to fit your story. First off no one said a using an open fireplace will result in a net heat loss only that it could, but it is a real possibility.

An open fireplace can be 10-20% efficient while the fire is burning but can be less (many sources quote a max of only 10% but whatever). But if someone is heating the rest of his house to 65 deg with a central system and has a 5% efficient fireplace that is sucking 400 cfm of heated air out from all parts of the house, that air must be replaced with outside air and you can have a net loss since the furnace is running more than it would w/o the fire burning. The extent of the loss in dollars depends on how expensive the furnace or whatever is to run.This especially true when the fire is burning down so giving little or no heat but good draft has been established.

There's still no net loss.
Inefficient , yes.

begreen · Sep 15, 2015

By pulling in 200-600cfm of outdoor air through leaks in the old house a fireplace can be heating at a deficit as it cools down and is no longer radiating enough warmth to compensate for the heat loss.

jatoxico · Sep 15, 2015

Don't listen to these guys freezing their butts off in their tee pees. Get an insert and burn! It's awesome. It's a life upgrade, who wants to sit around looking at the insulation?

Highbeam · Sep 15, 2015

billb3 said:
There's still no net loss.
Inefficient , yes.

Come on man, negative efficiency means a net loss. Yes a net loss. The reason is not the combustion but the chimney sucks vast amounts of conditioned air out of the home to be replaced by cold outside air. It's like leaving a window open.

bholler · Sep 15, 2015

billb3 said:
There's no such thing as a net loss.
An open fireplace may be horribly inefficient with numbers around 10-20 percent but not zero and certainly not negative.

sorry you are dead wrong there it absoluty can have a net loss. it can also contribute heat to the house but not always

begreen · Sep 15, 2015

Getting back to the OP. Sunshine, if you really want wood then amongst the inserts you mentioned I would suggest that the Clydesdale has a great track record. It's a well-made heater. If it will fit you might also look at the Quadrafire Voyageur.

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