So, this might be a silly question, but what are in fact the benefits and disadvantages of telling your insurance provider that you are going to run a wood stove in your house? Particularly if you have minimal coverage anyhow...I am just wondering if it gives them just a further excuse to raise your premium without any real benefit. In other words, for one with an old house, with old chimneys, old electrical, old x,y,z...if something were to happen with your house running a wood stove (i.e. fire, etc), couldn't they (and perhaps wouldn't they) find a way to get out of covering you anyhow (by saying that x,y,z is not up to code and therefore they have no liability to cover the damages, etc.). What are your guys thoughts on this?
insurance for wood stoves?
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axeman628
New Member
I would think they could deny your claim if the stove caused the fire. I have no idea whether they could use the stove as an excuse to deny other claims though.
I'm really not sure though and I am curious what the answers are.
I'm really not sure though and I am curious what the answers are.
JA600L
Minister of Fire
Depends on the company if there is a premium hike for the wood stove. Some care (or might not even want to cover you) and some don't, but better to be up front with it in my opinion. On mine there was none, but they did have some requirements, such as professionally installed.
If you DON'T claim that you have a wood stove, I can pretty much assure you that any claim involving it would probably be thrown in the trash can.
If you DON'T claim that you have a wood stove, I can pretty much assure you that any claim involving it would probably be thrown in the trash can.
If you have an old, outdated house your insurance company probably already knows that based on the year it was built and the systems installed. You definitely run the risk of having a claim denied if the woodstove cause a fire and they didn't know about the stove.
Also, most insurance policies require you to disclose things like wood stoves, and being dishonest about it can be grounds to retroactively rescind the policy - so you could have no coverage even if the fire had nothing to do with the stove.
Always best to be honest. As said, if you install is done to code, you are wise to advise them. If your stove install is not to code, you may be better off to tell them you have a wood stove and not say anything more. The risk is that they might send someone out to check it or they might not.
The way I look at it is that if you have an old house that is still standing, it has less risk than many new ones that are built like junk.
The way I look at it is that if you have an old house that is still standing, it has less risk than many new ones that are built like junk.
hamslam42
Member
This was a really good post. I probably should have but never thought about the insurance aspect of this when I had ours installed in summer 2014. Guess I figured it had to be better than an open wood burning fireplace, right? I just called our insurance company (local company but house is with Erie), and first thing they asked is if it was professionally installed, which we did. With that, the agent said there wasn't anything else that needed to be done, they would just note it in our file.
iron
Minister of Fire
we notified our insurance co (USAA) and told them we were replacing the old fireplace with a new one. as far as i know, our rates didn't change.
Thing is, I installed the liner myself...and of course, also set up my stove myself. Thing is, I also insulated my in-wall thimble myself...with a self made quadruple insulated pipe. It is all safely installed (probably even over-engineered), but just trying to figure out what I should do with insurance.
iron
Minister of Fire
i doubt they would ask those kinds of in depth questions. could be wrong. depends who insures you.
we didn't pull a permit, but had a local mechanical company install it. i assume that not pulling a permit would be akin to installing it yourself.
fire_man
Minister of Fire
NoGoodAtScreenNames
Feeling the Heat
I work for an insurance company. Every company may have different ways to price or underwrite the policy so it's best to check with your agent. Wood stoves are very common so most take a pretty ho-hum look at it. Maybe they'll send or questionnaire or send an inspector or ask to have a sweep take a second look. Generally you won't have a claim denied unless you engage in some misrepresentation by denying you have a stove or lying about pulling a permit or about having it installed by a professional. Outside of misrep you would have to do something grossly negligent to the point of being intentional (like those idiots who threw an aerosol can in the stove). If you are honest you don't need to worry about having a claim denied. If they don't like what you tell them, the worst they can do is non-renew you policy and you'll find another company easy enough. If they raise your rate you can shop around or raise your deductible. For me I'd rather pay a little more if the company has a high customer satisfaction for claimants than just saving a few bucks. You buy insurance to prevent financial disaster if your house burns or if someone is hurt or worse. Hopefully that peace of mind will be more important than saving a few bucks a year, being inconvenienced by shopping around or worrying about claims being denied.
When I installed inserts into my masonry fireplaces I called and the agent said if it is going into a pre-existing masonry fireplace they treat it the same as if it is just an open fireplace and didn't need to inspect it or make any changes to policy. As others have said I'm sure each company is different.
Rearscreen
Minister of Fire
My life experience with insurance companies is like spinning the roulette wheel at a casino. But here's the bad thing in our interconnected digital age that decreases the odds of the ball falling where you want it to: now all insurance companies are connected like your credit rating is. One claim lowers your ratings across the board. Good luck in getting insurance once something "bad" happens. Amica came out to "inspect" my house after issuing me my home insurance and found a few "minor" things. They have been relentless in making follow up calls to make sure I corrected this. Hmmm whats worse - a few rotting boards in the eve or massive amounts of carbon monoxide from the old boiler (which I immediately noticed, inspector missed and ripped out and replaced with a new heating system myself.) Sorry, haven't had time to fix the eve, I was more interested in saving my life thank you, so stop calling me.
fire_man
Minister of Fire
I've heard the same thing about "interconnected" insurance companies. I think you are referring to the "CLUE" report.
Even worse, not only is the policy holder marked via CLUE,but I understand even the house itself can be tracked so that if owner A makes a bunch of claims and sells to owner B, owner B pays more because the house had a history of claims.
Even worse, not only is the policy holder marked via CLUE,but I understand even the house itself can be tracked so that if owner A makes a bunch of claims and sells to owner B, owner B pays more because the house had a history of claims.
This is exactly the same thing my insurance agent told me, and he sells policies from multiple companies. Didn't even care that I was installing it myself. Didn't care about permits, etc. Makes sense when you think about it. Why should they waste any time or resources checking it when there's a much higher chance of the open fireplace causing a fire. Hell, if I were an insurance company, I'd offer rebates to customers who install inserts.
I just (last week) completed my install. I called them before I installed it to find out the requirements, they asked if I would regularly maintain it and clean it periodically. I said yes. They asked if I would have the fire dept inspect, I said I would. I called back after install and said our FD doesn't inspect (and not sure they'd know what to look for anyway). I told them it was installed according to mfr specs for the stove, stovepipe, and chimney. They said great. A previous company happily pointed out there is no difference between a fire in a furnace and a fire in a stove as far as they were concerned. Shouldn't be an issue, if it is maybe time to shop around.
Poindexter
Minister of Fire
I had my chimney done professionally, outside my expertise and I wanted someone to call if the roof started leaking.
Called the insurance agent to let them know we had 1) replaced the old fireplace with a new pro installed chimney, and 2) put in a wood stove for supplemental heat. I had to staple a couple pictures to a questionnaire. By checking the pro install box at the top of the form I got to skip answering a bunch of questions. My premium went up $52/ year and my oil bill came down about $4500 just for winter of 14-15.
If it had been a bigger premium jump with a pro install I probably would have shopped my homeowners policy around.
I did put in an offer on a house back in 2003 or so. After I wrote a deposit check to my RE agent I got my insurance company on the phone. My insurance agent didn't want to write a policy on the property at all because of the claims history on it. I had a different agent tell me over coffee, no witnesses, nothing in writing, that 15% of properties account for 85% of homeowners claims. Sounded reasonable at the time, still does. That property had a host of minor issues to go with the claims history.
Called the insurance agent to let them know we had 1) replaced the old fireplace with a new pro installed chimney, and 2) put in a wood stove for supplemental heat. I had to staple a couple pictures to a questionnaire. By checking the pro install box at the top of the form I got to skip answering a bunch of questions. My premium went up $52/ year and my oil bill came down about $4500 just for winter of 14-15.
If it had been a bigger premium jump with a pro install I probably would have shopped my homeowners policy around.
I did put in an offer on a house back in 2003 or so. After I wrote a deposit check to my RE agent I got my insurance company on the phone. My insurance agent didn't want to write a policy on the property at all because of the claims history on it. I had a different agent tell me over coffee, no witnesses, nothing in writing, that 15% of properties account for 85% of homeowners claims. Sounded reasonable at the time, still does. That property had a host of minor issues to go with the claims history.
I had a wood stove for several years and installed it according to NFPA rules. Town did not need a permit local fire marshal provided the NFPA regs. I followed them and told insurance company and said fine. Switched to a similar sized coal stove and never bothered to call insurance company as zero change in danger and probably much lower as chimney fire close to impossible with coal. Rates never went up and happy with the way I handled it. I did save the regs given at the time of original install just to cover my butt should there ever be a question as a legal install at the time in case regs change later. I will note my car insurance has gone up 80% in the last 5 years with no claims or tickets and house insurance with no claims either. I have a large dislike for insurance companies in general as it is a pool that takes the average for a large area. That punishes me for keeping the house up to date and driving carefully to pay for those that let a house fall apart and drive like idiots. There seems to be a disconnect between risk for a given person or building vs. another.
I just moved my stove up from the basement to the first floor and ended up switching my insurance after the fact. When it was in the basement everything around it was concrete so it was a non-issue. The move upstairs included a tile hearth pad and professionally installed class A chimney. My agent tells me all woodstoves are required to have 18 inch clearance to combustible walls but if I put up a steel heat shield it could be as close as I want. Because I know both statements are completely false I ask why they need need 18 inches when the manufacturer says it can be as close as 4 inches for the back of the stove. The response was basically "blah, blah, blah". Couple phone calls later I had new insurance. The premium was lower, no inspection needed because it was professionally installed to MFG specs.
fire_man
Minister of Fire
What kills me is a house can get a bad claims record because of the policy holder's negligence. The house with the owner who regularly cleans his flue, properly disposes ashes,replaces his old roof and has a high deductible is a responsible policy holder and makes no insurance claims.
The guy that cleans his flue with chimney fires, dumps hot ash without regard, and puts buckets under a leak will make multiple insurance claims. The next owner suffers the consequences of a house with a record.
Seems wrong to me that the insurance companies can penalize a new, responsible homeowner purely based on the last guy's negligence.
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NoGoodAtScreenNames
Feeling the Heat
A good underwriter would be looking at the stove to make sure that it was installed with the proper clearances, according to manufacturer specs and any local codes and to make sure the customer is safe in handling the ashes. While an underwriter is a good generalist, they won't know all the rules that are applicable to each and every stove in each jurisdiction. So they will ask whether it was installed by a professional as a proxy for all of that - since any professional should be taking all of those things into account. Worse case, if you got a fire due to a botched job, the company could subrogate (sue the installer for the amount of the claim they paid to you). With a homeowner install, they have to do a little more work to make sure its safe. They won't want to just take your word for it that you know what you are doing. They will be able to tell you story after story of someone who burned their house down doing something they thought they were qualified to do and weren't.
Its true that a CLUE report contains claims from the prior owner of the house. It may cause some stumbling blocks when buying the house and setting up the policy in the beggining. They may want a more intrusive inspection or have you promise to get things fixed or inspected. Its really uncommon for another person's claims to impact how much you pay. The claims follow the person, not the house in pricing decisions. Companies usually have to disclose claims that have a negative impact if they got that from a third party like a CLUE report to the customer. If you find you are paying for the sins of the prior owner - shop around.
If you want to save money on your insurance, the best thing you can do is select higher deductibles for covering your property and high limits when covering liability for others, don't use your home policy like its health insurance to get reimbursed for frequent and small claims that are really just maintenance. If you make updates to the house, let them know - you may get a better rate, especially for things like updating your roof. Also keep an eye on your credit score. Like it or not, a credit score is a report card for grown-ups and as good a predictor of future losses as anything else and almost all insurance companies will use it in their pricing.
Sorry for being long-winded. This is about the only thread on here where I actually know what I'm talking about and am just trying to give back for everything I've learned here from all of you.
Its true that a CLUE report contains claims from the prior owner of the house. It may cause some stumbling blocks when buying the house and setting up the policy in the beggining. They may want a more intrusive inspection or have you promise to get things fixed or inspected. Its really uncommon for another person's claims to impact how much you pay. The claims follow the person, not the house in pricing decisions. Companies usually have to disclose claims that have a negative impact if they got that from a third party like a CLUE report to the customer. If you find you are paying for the sins of the prior owner - shop around.
If you want to save money on your insurance, the best thing you can do is select higher deductibles for covering your property and high limits when covering liability for others, don't use your home policy like its health insurance to get reimbursed for frequent and small claims that are really just maintenance. If you make updates to the house, let them know - you may get a better rate, especially for things like updating your roof. Also keep an eye on your credit score. Like it or not, a credit score is a report card for grown-ups and as good a predictor of future losses as anything else and almost all insurance companies will use it in their pricing.
Sorry for being long-winded. This is about the only thread on here where I actually know what I'm talking about and am just trying to give back for everything I've learned here from all of you.
Hi NoGood...,
Thank you for that info. I just had my State Farm rep come to my house and take a picture of my stove. My wife said he was there for about five minutes, looked at the stove, took a photo to send to the underwriters and left. He called me on the way back to the office because I wanted to ask him a couple of questions. Bottom line was that he said I am fully covered TODAY, right now. In Virginia we don't have to have the install inspected by the city/county.
I asked again, just to be sure, if there was anything I needed to do to make sure we were in compliance with State Farm so that, god forbid there is an accident caused by the insert (CW2900i)? He said, "no, it looks good to me. maybe put a fireproof rug in front of the hearth in case an ember pops out. You can get one at Plow and Hearth or online..."
I thanked him and went back to work. No, he didn't inspect my installation. All he did was take pic of the UL sticker on the insert and checked to see if it was placed in the firebox. Their form that I filled out said I should install it as a slammer, i.e., no full SS pipe. Insulate the liner...hahaha. No. Just shove the insert in the firebox and run a short piece of pipe past through the damper area. It makes no sense.
Just wanted to share my very timely experience here. Every company is different and every municipality is different still. He did say my premium would go up $20 a year. I said that would be OK.
Cheers,
Sean
NoGoodAtScreenNames
Feeling the Heat
Figures... I try to defend my profession against accusations that we're all a bunch of nincompoops and then this...
But seriously there is a lot of misunderstanding around a fireplace vs. an insert vs. a freestanding stove. They don't always get the fact that an insert is a legitimate heater that people use for more than just an occasional fire. It's a wood stove with the legs amputated and pushed back a little further and not just a fancy looking fireplace. When I talk to people about wood burning I say I have a "wood stove insert" but with the insurance company it's a "fireplace insert". For some companies that may mean the difference between an extra charge or not.
But seriously there is a lot of misunderstanding around a fireplace vs. an insert vs. a freestanding stove. They don't always get the fact that an insert is a legitimate heater that people use for more than just an occasional fire. It's a wood stove with the legs amputated and pushed back a little further and not just a fancy looking fireplace. When I talk to people about wood burning I say I have a "wood stove insert" but with the insurance company it's a "fireplace insert". For some companies that may mean the difference between an extra charge or not.
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