Tarm Storage Tanks

When I was there last week of June they had a couple tanks set up and were just beginning to test them. They had a pair hooked together in parallel, in the top and out the bottom. At the time I was still thinking unpressurized storage (I'm now going pressurized LP tanks) so I didn't think to measure their height but I knew they wouldn't fit under my 90" basement ceiling. I mentioned the rumors at the time were that they would have them on the market next spring and he said they hoped to have them out before winter but they had a bunch of different tests to run first. They will undoubtedly be very expensive. Nothing on their website yet.

I also saw these during a visit to Tarm in early June- and in my case, also ruled them out for reasons separate from timing because of my low basement ceiling height

I was up there in August, and they said they would be about $1,000 each. The two tanks I would need would be cheaper and last longer than the unpressurized system they sell. I'd just have to lower the basement floor a bit.

Jim in CT said:

I was up there in August, and they said they would be about $1,000 each. The two tanks I would need would be cheaper and last longer than the unpressurized system they sell. I'd just have to lower the basement floor a bit.

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Jim,

I don’t know if you were just being sarcastic or if you do intend to lower your basement floor but it is certainly a viable option. I will be standing three 500 gallon propane tanks on end. I already have a 12’ ceiling height in the building that the tanks will go in but considering how much weight is involved I decided that the current 4” to 5” slab was not adequate. I intend to cut an 8’ by 8’ section out of the slab and remove enough fill to allow for a new 10” to 12” slab (with plenty of rebar) and still be 10" to 12” below the surrounding slab. Initially I was going to have the thick section end up at the same height as the surrounding slab but then it occurred to me that this would be a great opportunity to increase the thickness of the insulation above the tanks. I am also hoping that the “pit” will aid in standing the tanks up. I can move the tanks into the building horizontally (no choice there) and then slide them over the pit until they tip. At that point I will employ some combination of chain hoist, block & tackle and comealong to get them full upright.

Ron

No, I wasn't being sarcastic, I needed to do the same as you.. but good news for us! I just called TARM and they realized that the height of the tanks would be an issue for many of us, so they moved to a different tank. This one is 6"6", 220 gal. They said two would be enough for an excel 2000. I didn't ask, but I'm assuming the diameter is still such that will fit through a basement door... which was the original point of these tanks.
(Yes, I know assuming things like that is a dangerous thing.)
Should be available end of Sept.- Oct
Good idea about beefing up the floor tho.

Well I was curious myself what was included with the tanks. For example would they be complete turnkey setups with expansion, overflows, pre-insulated, temp gauges etc all built in (or included), or would they just be raw tanks? If thats $1000 just for a 220 gallon tank, that does sound quite expensive to me. ($5/gallon).

I also found it interesting that someone was told that 440 gallons would be plenty for a Tarm 2000. I wonder if the calc of storage to BTU's changes quite a bit when you go from open to pressurized?

MrEd said:

Well I was curious myself what was included with the tanks. For example would they be complete turnkey setups with expansion, overflows, pre-insulated, temp gauges etc all built in (or included), or would they just be raw tanks? If thats $1000 just for a 220 gallon tank, that does sound quite expensive to me. ($5/gallon).

I also found it interesting that someone was told that 440 gallons would be plenty for a Tarm 2000. I wonder if the calc of storage to BTU's changes quite a bit when you go from open to pressurized?

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I don't know what the price of the new tanks would be, but the other ones were 1000, so these will be close. However, the unpressurized tanks (collapsable), the small 500 gal swimming pool ones they sell are about $5000 with exchangers and all..... thats $10/gal. Not having big Bilco doors to get a big tank to the basement, its the smaller pressurized tanks or the hot swimming pool with coils. I have learned here recently that pressurized is better.

Mr Ed ... or anybody who has an opinion- are you saying 440 gal won't be enough? 440 pressurized directly heated gallons has to be close to a 500 gal unpressurized system, no? I don't know for sure, but it seems something would be lost using heat xchangers rather than direct storage.

Mr Ed ... or anybody who has an opinion- are you saying 440 gal won’t be enough? 440 pressurized directly heated gallons has to be close to a 500 gal unpressurized system, no? I don’t know for sure, but it seems something would be lost using heat xchangers rather than direct storage.

No, not saying that at all, but when I priced a Tarm 2000 years ago they recommended something closer to 1000 gallons for storage (unpressurized) and someone else is now being told that 440 gallons should be enough for a Tarm 2000 w/pressurized storage. I was legitimately wondering if having a pressurized tank somehow made it less necessary to have so many gallons of storage on tap.

check with Joe Brown, who's often around here ("BrownianHeatingTech"), about some additional options he may know of, that may be available soon, in the way of both pressurized and unpressurized tanks, and that may not be as expensive, and/ or may have other advantages (such as not relying on rubber liners in the case of the unpressurized- making reliability less of a worry, and also removing the temp limits associated with the EPDM liners)

http://www.brownianheating.com

and regarding presssurized vs unpressurized, there are pros and cons to each.

I was originally leaning very, very strongly towards pressurized, mostly because you can skip any kind of heat exchanger. But given the challenge of getting any sort of large one-piece tank in my cellar, I decided that a large unpressurized tank was going to work better for my intended use than a smaller pressurized tank. I've gone with un-pressurized, to the tune of about 1300 gallons (actually holds about 1200 after accounting for needed space for the water to expand. My tank is going to start out as a bunch of sub-assemblies, any one of which will be very easy to get through a door, and for one or two people to carry, but the modules will assemble into a tank that ought to be worry-proof and last my lifetime, or longer. It's based on technology and materials that are tried and true from other tank applications.

MrEd said:

...when I priced a Tarm 2000 years ago...

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wow, you've been around for a long time ;^)

chuck172 said:

Seems like their ought to be something better than a king size kiddy pool (unpressurized) or a Nuclear Missile(pressurized propane tank) in the basement.

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yep, similar thoughts motivated me to go in the different direction of the modular tank I'll be building.

completion of the fabrication and delivery of all the parts to my place is still several weeks out, but I'll take some photos and share 'em

MrEd said:

Mr Ed ... or anybody who has an opinion- are you saying 440 gal won’t be enough? 440 pressurized directly heated gallons has to be close to a 500 gal unpressurized system, no? I don’t know for sure, but it seems something would be lost using heat xchangers rather than direct storage.

No, not saying that at all, but when I priced a Tarm 2000 years ago they recommended something closer to 1000 gallons for storage (unpressurized) and someone else is now being told that 440 gallons should be enough for a Tarm 2000 w/pressurized storage. I was legitimately wondering if having a pressurized tank somehow made it less necessary to have so many gallons of storage on tap.

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Because you are not limited to 170-degree (like with an EPDM-lined tank), you can get a wider temperature swing in the tank, and get more use out of each gallon of water.

You can also install it with two or three tanks, now, then add another tank or two in the future if you decide that you want to extend your runtime between fires. Modular is good.

As far as pricing, once you get the whole package (tanks, insulation, expansion tank, and other trim), I expect that the cost will be essentially equivalent to that of an atmospheric tank with heat exchangers. However, due to a more efficient use of vertical space, pressurized storage will have a much smaller footprint. Every system I've quoted within the last month has been designed with a pressurized tank setup.

Joe

Here in sweden Baxi "tarm" takes 10000 SEK for a emty tank
The size is 500 gallon.

One big advantage whit a pressurized system is that you can get very good stratification and higer tempetures in the tank.
Check out this system.
http://www.afabinfo.com/gasellelogg.asp
Red. tank top =Ack Tank Toppen
blue. tank centre =Ack Tank mitten
Pink. tank bottom =Ack Tank Botten

The system have one 500 gallon tank.The boiler is an italian made Gaselle Quick Up.
Good boilers

chuck172 said:

I just talked to the Tarm people.
For the Solo40: Pressurized storage system
2-220 gallon tanks, insulation kit, controls, expansion tank
Get ready for this:
$5,745.00 plus shipping

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How many minutes did it take before you stopped laughing?

WOW

That price must include the Tarm? or else perhaps those 220 gallon tanks are full of maple syrup?

omg that is really expensive

chuck172 said:

I just talked to the Tarm people.
For the Solo40: Pressurized storage system
2-220 gallon tanks, insulation kit, controls, expansion tank
Get ready for this:
$5,745.00 plus shipping

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that's insane!

I won't be paying _that_ much for 1350 gallons of custom fabricated 409 stainless steel modular tank (holding a net volume of 1200+ gallons after figuring for expansion room)- where even the largest modular panel will easily be carried by 2 people and fit through any door!

Granted, I'll have to do a plate HX (goes with the territory of an unpressurized tank), but still, I'll have a lot more volume, and thus more BTUs stored, and it'll be made out of a material that I'll never have to think twice about whether it will eventually rust (as with steel) or pinhole/leak (as with liners).

I'd had moments a month or so ago where I'd wondered, after biting the bullet and sending a deposit to my fabricator, whether I'd someday have moments of regret after Tarm finally brought their sealed tanks to market. guess I can dismiss that from the list of things to wonder about!