The Bixby, The Europa and the not so good salesperson

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Fsappo

Fsappo

Minister of Fire
Apr 9, 2008
4,331
Central NY
I had a client come in to our showroom to look at the Europa. I have them on sale for $4400. He said he was comparing it to a Bixby stove that our competition was selling. It was the last one they were looking to close out. The price was $4200. Installation and venting brought our prices to about equal. I told the customer that I didn't like to talk down about our competitors product but they should do a little research on the Bixby prior to making a decision.

The wife was 100% sold on the Europa. She liked the battery backup, the fact that it was quiet and used less fuel, etc. Wouldnt you know the customers ended up buying the Bixby closeout?

I almost fired myself after losing that sale.
 
Franks said:
I had a client come in to our showroom to look at the Europa. I have them on sale for $4400. He said he was comparing it to a Bixby stove that our competition was selling. It was the last one they were looking to close out. The price was $4200. Installation and venting brought our prices to about equal. I told the customer that I didn't like to talk down about our competitors product but they should do a little research on the Bixby prior to making a decision.

The wife was 100% sold on the Europa. She liked the battery backup, the fact that it was quiet and used less fuel, etc. Wouldnt you know the customers ended up buying the Bixby closeout?

I almost fired myself after losing that sale.
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I was never a big fan of the Europa: we tried them out for a while, and sold exactly two... HIGH price, no auto start, long start up cycle... you shoulda come down 200 dollars, you'da been ok
 
I dont think the 200 bucks was the issue, the installed price was the same. I think that the guy selling the Bixby just outsold me. I just know from selling Bixby in the past that this customer is in for one hell of a ride. We don't sell to many of these either, maybe 5-10 per year.
 
Summit,

You may want to look at the new stove re-designed by Paromax. It is ten times the stove when compared to the FPI stoves. Quieter, more reliable electronics, start up time is approximately 10 minutes, air wash, can be controlled by a thermostat, multi fuel, low energy consumption via the 12 volt system, 7 hours run time on battery back up (small CLA included), cleaning is simple, and very efficient. Auto start would be nice, but I can't remember when I haven't had enough time to spare to squirt some gel on the pellets and light a fire stick and press a button. Also, not having to dump the ash for two to three weeks is nice as well.

The price is substantial, but the retail price I paid in the Midwest was substantially lower than the price quoted above and I didn't have to haggle.

Irishman
 
Yeah, the post FPI models made by Claude are an absolute dream. The lack of electronic ignition (which makes the start up time much longer than the 20 seconds it takes to do the gel thing) is of small consequence to most people that have a working knowledge of pellet stoves. But from a sales standpoint, when customers see these $50 home depot stoves with electronic ignition, they tend to question why the most advanced biomass stove made in North America doesnt offer it. Of course there is a very logical reason why, but unless your trained to answer the question, it makes for a sticky objection to overcome.
 
Franks said:
Yeah, the post FPI models made by Claude are an absolute dream. The lack of electronic ignition (which makes the start up time much longer than the 20 seconds it takes to do the gel thing) is of small consequence to most people that have a working knowledge of pellet stoves. But from a sales standpoint, when customers see these $50 home depot stoves with electronic ignition, they tend to question why the most advanced biomass stove made in North America doesnt offer it. Of course there is a very logical reason why, but unless your trained to answer the question, it makes for a sticky objection to overcome.
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Yes, but the "working knowledge of pellet stoves" thing is exactly what you ar dealing with when someone comes into the showroom.. fire gel is fine (I ran a p38, I know what its all about) but to a new customer in the mkt, when comparing the tstat controlled, nice circuits, fancy widget of a pellet unit @ over 4k tht you have to run w/ a manual light all the time vs. the auto lite, tstat controlled pellet widget that costs 1-2K less, which do you think a person with a non working knowledge if gonna look at harder? Then compare that to a unit comparable in price WITH the auto start and fancy features for a person with a non working knowledge of pellet units...
 
Summit, I can see where you are coming from when talking about a customer with no knowledge of burning a pellet stove. However, I would think that someone that is going to drop in upwards of $3,000 for a stove would weigh the other options that really make the Europa stand out above the rest as being far more important than taking one more minute out of their day to squirt some gel and drop a match. Furthermore, I see many, many people with auto ignition having to replace them multiple times, which is fine, during the warranty period. After that, $100+ adds up, especially if the consumer that purchased the fancy auto ignition stove doesn't want to do the work themselves. That is one of the things that frustrates the hell out of me is a dealer that speaks of biomass burning appliances as though they are plug and play, "just load them with a bag of pellets and press a button and dump the ash once in a while" This discussion of maintenance and cleaning doesn't come up much in the sales pitches I've overheard or had been a part of. I was lucky enough to stumble upon this site and one other very good site that armed me with all of the information I needed to make an informed decision, so I knew what to expect in terms of technical problems and the upkeep involved. Although it might be like buying a BMW without power door locks, the auto ignition is such a small consideration when looking at the overall picture. I suppose it all boils down to how one presents the little things as being big things.

I believe that the Europa can be purchased for $3,600-$3,800, depending on freight. What stoves do you consider to be comparable to the Europa for $1,000 to $2,000 less? I've seen many solid stoves, but the operation, efficiency, inexpensive operation, ability to continuously run the stove with little maintenance and the solid build of the Europa made it an easy choice over the others.
 
If a manufacturer was really determined for his pellet stove to have broad appeal and interest to most potential purchasers the stove would definitely need to include an auto igniter . For what a new pellet stove sells for these days who in their right mind would choose one without this feature? The importance of this feature cannot be overstated and even more so if you use the pellet stove on the shoulder seasons which can be as lengthy as the actual winter heating season itself.
I presently own a manual stove (circ: 2004) and also one with an auto igniter(circ: 2008). As good as my little Harman P-38 is and as much as I like it , I would NOT consider another manual start pellet stove purchase.
More often than not twice a day during most of Nov and into Dec and then from mid Mar to the end of Apr. I manually light the stove and run it for a few hours 1-2 times a day. Not difficult but auto ignition would be quicker and much simpler.
Even my new $700 elcheapo PDVC from Englander (Ebay purchase) has auto ignition , push the on button and in less than 4 minutes I can see a flame emerging from a small pile of pellets. As a consumer IMO you should expect no less for what some of these space heaters cost today.
Rebuttals are welcome.
 
I agree with Gio to a certain extent. To appeal to a larger customer base, auto ignite on the Europa would be great. It is not designed to be run for a couple of hours at a time. It's designed to be fired up in November and shut down once per month until April for cleaning the ash pan. The reason why it doesnt use electronic ignition (or part of the reason) is that the stove takes a full 20 minutes or so to reach it's mythical efficiency to where it allegedly uses 30-40% less fuel than a typical stove. So in thermostatic mode, if it was constantly turning on and off there would be large chunks of time where the stove was running at a 50%+ heat loss. So instead of on/off in therm mode, it just goes hi/low. Same goes for the initial start ups. To have combustion happening in seconds as opposed to minutes makes the manual light something efficiency/techie nuts latch on too. Certainly not a main stream product. It accounts for only about 10% of our total unit sales.

I just had a customer come in for his 3rd ton of pellets for his Europa and he is heating 2100 square feet in a split level. He is just about done with his second ton for the season and is forecasting using 3 tons total + about $100 gallons of fuel oil. He empties his ash pan once per month and keeps the thermostat on the Europa at 72 (located about 15' from the stove which is in the lower level of the split ranch) I asked him about the lack of auto ignition...well, you can guess his response.

I wont even sell a Europa to someone who uses their stove like Gio mentioned. Just as a space heater for a few hours here or there for part of the year. I have other stoves to sell for that application. The Europa is designed to burn for 5 months, nice and steady.

So I agree with Gio, def not a mainstream stove that would appeal to everyone.

Also, We need someone who wants to give this thing an unbiased side by side test with some other stoves. I gotta talk to webby and see if he has any suggestions.
 
But anyhow, the original point of this was...of all the stinkin stoves he coulda bought instead of the Europa...why a Bixby? He would have been better off with an Englander or even a made in China Hudson River stove than the Bixby. Thats what gets my goat. The Bixby salesperson was top notch and put me to shame!
 
Franks said:
But anyhow, the original point of this was...of all the stinkin stoves he coulda bought instead of the Europa...why a Bixby? He would have been better off with an Englander or even a made in China Hudson River stove than the Bixby. Thats what gets my goat. The Bixby salesperson was top notch and put me to shame!
Click to expand...

Franks, Don`t beat yourself up over it.
You aint gonna win em all even though the Europa might be miles ahead of the Bixby.
It could have been the manual ignite , or maybe they just liked the Bixby look. You might never know why .
 
Irishman said:
I believe that the Europa can be purchased for $3,600-$3,800, depending on freight. What stoves do you consider to be comparable to the Europa for $1,000 to $2,000 less? I've seen many solid stoves, but the operation, efficiency, inexpensive operation, ability to continuously run the stove with little maintenance and the solid build of the Europa made it an easy choice over the others.
Click to expand...

a harman p43 heats the same, w/ auto start for 2499...
VistaFlame/ Enviro make the 170 and the Maxx, also auto start (and avail in a multifuel Omega) we sell the VF170 at 2899...

I am familiar w/ the europa, as we ran one in the showroom for the better part of 8 mos to sell the 2 that we had. It did throw out a repectable amount of heat. The glass also got black very quickly, withing a couple hrs, and its hard to show and sell a stove when you gotta wipe soot of the glass every day just to see the fire.. And the non auto start was a huge sticking point for most... we ended up selling the floor model at a huge discount (2K I think) just to get it outta here.
I understand the selling points on the europas, and I am not saying they are a bad stove... However, i think they are badly overpriced for what you get...
 
Summit,

I had the glass problem with my first Europa (FPI) stove, but the new, reworked version by the original manufacturer (Paromax) has an airwash and bunring qualities keep the glass relatively clear.

I have a friend that is in the market for a stove and the Omega does appear to be something that is more in his price range. How reliable have the Enviro's been for you.

Thanks
 
Irishman said:
Summit,

I had the glass problem with my first Europa (FPI) stove, but the new, reworked version by the original manufacturer (Paromax) has an airwash and bunring qualities keep the glass relatively clear.

I have a friend that is in the market for a stove and the Omega does appear to be something that is more in his price range. How reliable have the Enviro's been for you.

Thanks
Click to expand...

They are pretty bullet proof... very easy to wrap your head around, even for a not so "pellet stove savvy" person.
 
I wouldn't care if my stove was manual start or not... but selling a stove to the masses is like selling a car without a/c or power steering... tuff to do.
 
krooser said:
I wouldn't care if my stove was manual start or not... but selling a stove to the masses is like selling a car without a/c or power steering... tuff to do.
Click to expand...

Tough to do, but sell a car with no a/c or power steering that could get 100 miles to the gallon and you'll still get buyers. Again, Claude (who invented the Europa) or myself never claimed to have this be a stove for the masses. We have our good buddy Mike from Englander to take care of that ;)
 
Not the primary topic, but why the negatives on Bixby? I'm on my 3rd year. All this stove asks for is fuel and a cleaning every week or two. I don't know many pellet/corn stove users, but those w/ Bixby's haven't had problems. Back to the main topic, I would love to see a chart listing various stoves, properties of each, and the daily/weekly maintenance requirements of each re: cleaning, ash removal, etc. This would provide helpful information prior to purchase. In my opinion, any newbie stove purchaser will be disappointed when s/he discovers that it isn't simply push a button and walk away until spring. I had that experience w/ the local St Croix dealer. Just a thought.
 
I'm glad your doing well with your Bixby. We sold about a dozen of them and all but 2 have been removed, scrapped and replaced with different stoves at our expense. You could be a good user, which helps.

I guess I shouldnt have knocked the Bixby. If you called 10 Bixby dealers in the Northeast and ask how they like selling them, you may not hear all postive things
 
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