What to look for in LP Tanks 500 or 1000gal, need data tags?

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goosegunner

Minister of Fire
Hearth Supporter
Oct 15, 2009
1,469
WI
I am starting to plan out a new boiler and looking into gathering needed supplies for storage.

I found a 1000 gallon tank. The guy said the data tag was gone but I could get it for $300.

Is it necessary to have the data tag on the tank?

What works better 2 500gal tanks or a 1000gal tank?

Vertical or horizontal placement?

Can anyone point me to a thread about needed ports and the best locations?

gg
 
goosegunner said:
I am starting to plan out a new boiler and looking into gathering needed supplies for storage.

I found a 1000 gallon tank. The guy said the data tag was gone but I could get it for $300.

Is it necessary to have the data tag on the tank?

What works better 2 500gal tanks or a 1000gal tank?

Vertical or horizontal placement?

Can anyone point me to a thread about needed ports and the best locations?

gg
Click to expand...

You dont need a data tag because you are not filling with LP If you can fit a 1000gal tank 1 tank is better than 2
Rob
 
taxidermist said:
goosegunner said:
I am starting to plan out a new boiler and looking into gathering needed supplies for storage.

I found a 1000 gallon tank. The guy said the data tag was gone but I could get it for $300.

Is it necessary to have the data tag on the tank?

What works better 2 500gal tanks or a 1000gal tank?

Vertical or horizontal placement?

Can anyone point me to a thread about needed ports and the best locations?

gg
Click to expand...

You dont need a data tag because you are not filling with LP If you can fit a 1000gal tank 1 tank is better than 2
Rob
Click to expand...

Just planning a shed now, dimensions have changed to 36' X 50'. I think I would put it in the north west corner. Insulate and Build a box around it and still have storage on top of the tank.

Boiler lines could also come in to that corner of the shed.

I will put the boiler nearby but not in the shed. How close should it be for optimal charging of the storage tank?

And what size lines from boiler to storage? I am thinking an Econburn 200 since I need a ASME stamp in Wisconsin.

gg
 
Good project. You can take a look at mine if you want: Tarm Landed. I put both the 1000 gal tank and the Tarm in the shop.

You will want to size your lines between the boiler and the tank based on how many btu's you would the ability to move. The EWB200 is rated at 200,000 btuh, which likely is peak output. If you want to be able to move 200,000 btuh with a delta-T of 20F, then you need to move 20 gpm of water (btuh = gpm x 500 x delta-T). Work the formula anyway you want based on your objectives. 20 gpm normally would require 1-1/2" pipe. Then calculate pump head based on the length of your lines and pick a circulator that provides the required flow in about the middle of the pump curve.

Installing a 1000 gal tank vertical would be a challenge, both for engineering and for safety; mine is horizontal. I had 2" fittings welded into one end of my tank, 6" down from the top and 6" up from the bottom, supply to the top and return from the bottom. The top fitting has a 1-1/4" pipe extending horizontally 18" into the tank, and my supply and return lines are 1-1/4". Since this is a new setup from what I had last year, I don't have final data on stratification/mixing, but my first two test burns this summer (too hot to do any more) evidenced very good stratification, end to end, at a calculated flow of 14-16 gpm. My test measurement of stratification is based on sensors at each end of the tank, fixed to the outside and covered with insulation, one down 12" from the top and the other at the bottom of the tank. I now have 4 sensors installed on each end of the tank, top, down 12", down 24", and bottom (my tank has a 36" diameter). Come Sept and more data will be available with the first burns of the heating season. I'm pretty confident that stratification will be very good, but the data will tell the true story.
 
goosegunner said:
taxidermist said:
goosegunner said:
I am starting to plan out a new boiler and looking into gathering needed supplies for storage.

I found a 1000 gallon tank. The guy said the data tag was gone but I could get it for $300.

Is it necessary to have the data tag on the tank?

What works better 2 500gal tanks or a 1000gal tank?

Vertical or horizontal placement?

Can anyone point me to a thread about needed ports and the best locations?

gg
Click to expand...

You dont need a data tag because you are not filling with LP If you can fit a 1000gal tank 1 tank is better than 2
Rob
Click to expand...

Just planning a shed now, dimensions have changed to 36' X 50'. I think I would put it in the north west corner. Insulate and Build a box around it and still have storage on top of the tank.

Boiler lines could also come in to that corner of the shed.

I will put the boiler nearby but not in the shed. How close should it be for optimal charging of the storage tank?

And what size lines from boiler to storage? I am thinking an Econburn 200 since I need a ASME stamp in Wisconsin.

gg
Click to expand...

Question - have you talked to your inspector? If you require an ASME stamp on your boiler there is a chance you will be required to have the ID tags on your tanks if you go pressurized. Finding tagged tanks is not easy, typically they will have to be new.
 
stee6043 said:
goosegunner said:
taxidermist said:
goosegunner said:
I am starting to plan out a new boiler and looking into gathering needed supplies for storage.

I found a 1000 gallon tank. The guy said the data tag was gone but I could get it for $300.

Is it necessary to have the data tag on the tank?

What works better 2 500gal tanks or a 1000gal tank?

Vertical or horizontal placement?

Can anyone point me to a thread about needed ports and the best locations?

gg
Click to expand...

You dont need a data tag because you are not filling with LP If you can fit a 1000gal tank 1 tank is better than 2
Rob
Click to expand...

Just planning a shed now, dimensions have changed to 36' X 50'. I think I would put it in the north west corner. Insulate and Build a box around it and still have storage on top of the tank.

Boiler lines could also come in to that corner of the shed.

I will put the boiler nearby but not in the shed. How close should it be for optimal charging of the storage tank?

And what size lines from boiler to storage? I am thinking an Econburn 200 since I need a ASME stamp in Wisconsin.

gg
Click to expand...

Question - have you talked to your inspector? If you require an ASME stamp on your boiler there is a chance you will be required to have the ID tags on your tanks if you go pressurized. Finding tagged tanks is not easy, typically they will have to be new.
Click to expand...

I have not talked to an inspector yet. I will need to investigate that further.

gg
 
jebatty said:
Good project. You can take a look at mine if you want: Tarm Landed. I put both the 1000 gal tank and the Tarm in the shop.

You will want to size your lines between the boiler and the tank based on how many btu's you would the ability to move. The EWB200 is rated at 200,000 btuh, which likely is peak output. If you want to be able to move 200,000 btuh with a delta-T of 20F, then you need to move 20 gpm of water (btuh = gpm x 500 x delta-T). Work the formula anyway you want based on your objectives. 20 gpm normally would require 1-1/2" pipe. Then calculate pump head based on the length of your lines and pick a circulator that provides the required flow in about the middle of the pump curve.

Installing a 1000 gal tank vertical would be a challenge, both for engineering and for safety; mine is horizontal. I had 2" fittings welded into one end of my tank, 6" down from the top and 6" up from the bottom, supply to the top and return from the bottom. The top fitting has a 1-1/4" pipe extending horizontally 18" into the tank, and my supply and return lines are 1-1/4". Since this is a new setup from what I had last year, I don't have final data on stratification/mixing, but my first two test burns this summer (too hot to do any more) evidenced very good stratification, end to end, at a calculated flow of 14-16 gpm. My test measurement of stratification is based on sensors at each end of the tank, fixed to the outside and covered with insulation, one down 12" from the top and the other at the bottom of the tank. I now have 4 sensors installed on each end of the tank, top, down 12", down 24", and bottom (my tank has a 36" diameter). Come Sept and more data will be available with the first burns of the heating season. I'm pretty confident that stratification will be very good, but the data will tell the true story.
Click to expand...

Yes I was just reading your thread last night. Very nice setup! I can see where the 1 1/2" pipe going to the boiler from outside will be a problem. My idea was to place the boiler outside near the building for insurance purposes. The main purpose of the building will be additional storage.

I thought I would either build a small adjacent building or by one of the new outdoor econoburns. Doing good underground of sufficent size will be difficult.

Heat loss for my house at -15 is 48K, Pool in the summer is 120K. Maybe I could use a smaller boiler with the 1000gal storage.

gg
 
200kBTU boiler with 1000 gallons of pressurized storage will be a very nice system. If you have the ceiling height, install the tank vertically for best stratification and utilization of stored BTU's. Also would recommend putting the boiler in the building for best efficiency, ease of service and driest wood. Color me jealous in NH! Good luck with the project.

Chris
 
BioHeat Sales Guy said:
200kBTU boiler with 1000 gallons of pressurized storage will be a very nice system. If you have the ceiling height, install the tank vertically for best stratification and utilization of stored BTU's. Also would recommend putting the boiler in the building for best efficiency, ease of service and driest wood. Color me jealous in NH! Good luck with the project.

Chris
Click to expand...

Not sure if I can swing the boiler right now or not, but I want to make sure I get the proper size piping going to and from the shed while the trench is open. I need to run a water line from the house so I plan on have my boiler lines in the same trench. Will have to be 6' down for the most part.

If this 1000 gallon tank will work for $300 I figure it won't hurt to grab it and get it all ready. I can continue to use my OWB if I have to with piping going to shed.

If all goes well I can swap out boilers and connect the storage.

Insurance doesn't play well with wood appliance in buildings here. Especially since this shed will have vehicles in it. I know some will say different but that is just how it is here.

I can place it in a small matching building nearby and keep everyone happy.

gg
 
goosegunner said:
BioHeat Sales Guy said:
200kBTU boiler with 1000 gallons of pressurized storage will be a very nice system. If you have the ceiling height, install the tank vertically for best stratification and utilization of stored BTU's. Also would recommend putting the boiler in the building for best efficiency, ease of service and driest wood. Color me jealous in NH! Good luck with the project.

Chris
Click to expand...

Not sure if I can swing the boiler right now or not, but I want to make sure I get the proper size piping going to and from the shed while the trench is open. I need to run a water line from the house so I plan on have my boiler lines in the same trench. Will have to be 6' down for the most part.

If this 1000 gallon tank will work for $300 I figure it won't hurt to grab it and get it all ready. I can continue to use my OWB if I have to with piping going to shed.

If all goes well I can swap out boilers and connect the storage.

Insurance doesn't play well with wood appliance in buildings here. Especially since this shed will have vehicles in it. I know some will say different but that is just how it is here.

I can place it in a small matching building nearby and keep everyone happy.

gg
Click to expand...
You might want to make provisions for keeping system pressures below 15 psi. Above this you must run both an ASME boiler & tank(below this there is no tag requirement or size limit on tanks). Wisconsin has some very tough laws in place that were designed to allow inspectors a lot of leway. These were put there because of the plethora of backyard boilers many coming from neighboring Michigan. If you have a quality boiler certified to a recognizable standard the inspector will most likly allow you to run under 15 psi. If the inspector sees a boiler with no tags, even if it looks good, chances are you will run at 0 psi. Think you can run an expansion tank in the attic like Mass & bump up the psi, think again. 0 psi in the boiler means just that if you get a tough ins that knows his stuff.(I understand this won't apply to you, this for others going to get a cheap boiler in Wis) Think "big" expansion tank or tanks for the 15 psi version. Good luck PM if I can help more, Randy
 
I have experience with both 500 and 1,000 gallon tanks installed horizontally and personally have 2 x 500 gallon tanks stacked on top of each other. Since hot water rises the higher one can go with the tank the better. Also, the stratification is better and the longer you will have hot water at the top of the tank. In Europe it is very common (almost standard practice) to see several 500 liter (119 gallons) tanks placed side by side and connected to each other at the top, middle and bottom. My stacked 500 gallon tanks work very well. I recently was told (but have not confirmed) by a manufactures's representative that sells many gas and oil boilers that if the tank size is less than 120 gallon that it does not need to be ASME rated.

I have (2) 25 gallon tanks in my boiler demo trailer which are fed by an EFFECTA WOODY LAMBDA 35 boiler. I had one tank sprayed with 2" of foam and the other sprayed with 4" of foam and there is only a 4 degree difference on the outside of them when the water inside the tanks is at 180-190 F. From what I am seeing/experiencing, spray foaming a thermal storage tank works very, very well.

Feel free to PM me if you have quesitons or would like to see photos of my tank setup (the photos are not the proper type/size to post on this forum).

Thanks,

NWM
 
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