Plastic storage tanks

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tcraigscott

New Member
Aug 16, 2011
10
Canada
I am trying to but my boiler system together this fall and am looking at doing some storage tanks.

I came across a source of these tanks,

http://www.shopavfuel.com/avstore/products/pdf/275b.pdf?osCsid=a4b2hi56vm1e7im7qpftto0u96

really cheap ($10 a tank)

specs show good to 110 degrees Celsius continual operation, and they are stackable up to 4 high.

Has anyone done a system with these for storage tanks.

Can you do an unpressurized storage without going to all the trouble of a bunch of copper pipe heat exchangers?

How would you plumb several of them up together?

Thanks
 
I don't think it would work with the pressure.
 
You can do non pressureized by manifolding the filler openings together and manifolding the outlet openingingstogether. You could plumb your tanks so you can either charge or discharge your tanks by reversing flow direction if you desire stratification and the hottest water possible for use or a simple flow through design that would always flow in one direction. I have a 55 gallon hdpe tank that I use with a "ceramic" boiler and an always on circ. I built a simple diffuser using a "T" and 1" pex and bent the pex to circle back into the "T" fitting and I drilled enough 1/16th holes in the pex circle to allow for approximately 1.25" capacity. (That way the water flows into the topf of the tank at a more gentle rate and don't create turbulence in the tank.) The circ is located at the bottom of the tank so there is always positive flow from the circ to keep pushing any air out of the boiler and back into the tank. It is obviously an open system. Water levels are maintained in the house and the boiler never runs low under normal circumstances. If you were to build four diffusers like the one I mentioned above but limited each diffuser to around 25% of your pex's flow capacity you should be able to fill each tank simutaneously with equatible flow. However you may need to put boiler control valves on the lines feeding the tanks if your manifolding tends to supply one line more than the others. Because of the square design insulating the the tanks should be fairly simplified. I wish I had access to tanks like those at those prices. Great find!
 
This has been a common thread on solar sites as well as here.
Once insulated, these tanks are going to be stressed significantly at higher temps and are apt to stress crack.
HDPE is going to soften as it gets hotter.

If you use them, install somewhere where things can drain, just in case.

Polypropylene is a better choice.

Would be fun to try, but there is a reason that these are not sold insulated. They are made for hot fill and/or emptying, not
for continuous heat exposure.
 
110 celcius puts you right at boiling at F* and even if the tanks are rated for 110 continuous Tom in Maine does bring up a good point. Tanks of that nature can be subjected to high heat as long as they are not insulated because the outer skin is allowed to disipate heat so it might be best to know the heat ranges you need for your system. Case in point I ran an EKO gaisifier at 170f* for four years with no storage. Annual wood usage including summer dhw was between 6-7 cords. The gasifier is off line right now and I am using a ceramic boiler and last season (my learning curve year) the ceramic boiler used 12 cords and the temp of the ceramic boiler was only at 155f*. the ceramic boiler was less sophisticated but cleaned my processed wood lot up. Both boilers heated my home comfortably but the gasifier was quicker to respond with heat when starting from a low coal base or out. My point is the effective temperature though. Gasifiers may have a tendency to idle more at lower temps but with storage set at a lower temperature level you could still have a viable system by planning your burn times to prevent idling. A storage system around 1000 gallons capacity for $40 bucks initially is hard to imagine. If you could run the system at around 160 or 165f* you may have found gold. At that price you might be able to resell some tanks and recoup your money. What a horrible thought ;-)
 
See I couldn't find heat specs on the actual tank so I looked them up for HDPE plastic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-density_polyethylene

"That is where I got 120 °C/ 248 °F for short periods, 110 °C /230 °F continuously"

I know that tanks weren't designed for continually storing heated liquid but I was thinking the properties of the plastic could handle it. Wouldn't that be regardless of whether it is insulated or not? Even if I was running 180 degress that would be well below the HDPE specs.

I like the idea of a diffuser and that I could use them unpressurized. The the circ pump is located at the bottom of the tank, pumping away from the tank? is that right? I still haven't entirely figured out the best and simplest way to plumb the storage / boiler / heating loop.

If you did have more flow going into one tank I guess they would all equalize if the were paralleled together. (I am guessing I would have to have them side by side and not stacked or one would drain out into the next, and then all over the floor)

Yeah reselling seems viable It was looking like just and EPDM liner was going to be over $100 for $500 gallon plus still all the labor of building a tank frame. Only thing is shipping would be ridiculout on something as massive as one of those tanks While there is lots of people in this area that have big outdoor wood boilers, there is very few that have have gasification boilers, and so far I am the only one I know of that is planning thermal storage around here (but maybe that is just the ticket to a good local marker)
 
tcraigscott said:
See I couldn't find heat specs on the actual tank so I looked them up for HDPE plastic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-density_polyethylene

"That is where I got 120 °C/ 248 °F for short periods, 110 °C /230 °F continuously"

I know that tanks weren't designed for continually storing heated liquid but I was thinking the properties of the plastic could handle it. Wouldn't that be regardless of whether it is insulated or not? Even if I was running 180 degress that would be well below the HDPE specs.

Yes at 180f it should be alright but the concern expressed, as I understand it, is in the insulation "softening" the outside of the tank which would normally be more rigid because of its direct contact with cooler ambient temperatures. Along those lines if your boiler were to overheat and saturate the storage containers at 212f, even for a short time, there could be some softening of the hdpe. However by the spec's in the link you should certainly be able to start out at a lower 165f and eventually edge up to 180f. Shoulder seasons are great times for learning curves.

I like the idea of a diffuser and that I could use them unpressurized. The the circ pump is located at the bottom of the tank, pumping away from the tank? is that right? I still haven't entirely figured out the best and simplest way to plumb the storage / boiler / heating loop.

Yes, normally speaking the circ would belocated at the bottom of the tank or the line out from where the tanks manifold.

If you did have more flow going into one tank I guess they would all equalize if the were paralleled together. (I am guessing I would have to have them side by side and not stacked or one would drain out into the next, and then all over the floor)

Stacking would not be a good idea for the very reason you have expressed. Equalizing would easily be seen if you had temp guages on the lines leading to the manifold as temps would be normalized. However, even when all parts are identical manifolding can create eddy currents and you will have manifolds going in and going out of the tanks. Aside from the manifolding having separate boiler valves is advised incase of a partial system failure like leaks and such. (not ball valves as they are meant to be either full on or full off and not to be used for metering as that leads to leaking valves)

Yeah reselling seems viable It was looking like just and EPDM liner was going to be over $100 for $500 gallon plus still all the labor of building a tank frame. Only thing is shipping would be ridiculout on something as massive as one of those tanks While there is lots of people in this area that have big outdoor wood boilers, there is very few that have have gasification boilers, and so far I am the only one I know of that is planning thermal storage around here (but maybe that is just the ticket to a good local marker)

At those prices I wonder if shipping would not be no more than what I have to pay for tanks locally and have to pick up on my own. Maybe dreaming but buy 6 sell three and only pay for one or two.
 
I think some folks above have been trying to sprinkle on your parade without taking it to an official raining on your parade.

First things first - Wiki is NOT a sound source for material specs, ever.

HDPE is a class of materials. It's not static. There are different grades, different resins and different intended uses. The actual performance of the material will depend largely on how it's processed. So even when you find a material spec for some kind of resin the actual performance of the finished part will be almost entirely independent.

I'd bet with some confidence that any HDPE tank commercially available will show signs of softening long before reaching 200+ degrees F continuous. Especially at the bottom corners. Eventually (sooner rather than later) it is going to warp, change shape, move, etc. The softening point for many HDPE's out there seems to be 120C but I really think in this application you're going to see bad things happening long before you reach that point. Europe has been perfecting thermal storage for decades longer than the USA. I suspect if plastic tanks were at all feasible you would see them in use in the EU.

If you want to find more data on actual HDPE materials search for Dow and/or Sabic on google. "HDPE Dow MSDS" will probably get you off to a running start.

My two cents only, of course.
 
Wiki is a place to get an approximate idea of what might be.

Would certainly be worth checking in with the manufacturer.
They know the specs of what they are selling.
 
Sounds to me like you have some needed info chasing ideas to determine if what is for sale is in line with what you need. Good luck on your project!
 
I spent well over a year looking into tanks. Called several HDPE manufacturers and discussed temps. None were willing to say their tank would handle anything above 160*F for extended use. One said it would handle the temps short term, but would get brittle. Polypropylene will handle higher temps, but at those prices you might as well go stainless........which is what I did. I passed 50 last year and don't want to be messin' around with tanks in 5, 10 or 15 years. In 30 years my son will be 50 and still using the SS tank. Cheap isn't always cheap. Time has a value greater than most put on it. My two cents.
 
Der Fiur Meister said:
I spent well over a year looking into tanks. Called several HDPE manufacturers and discussed temps. None were willing to say their tank would handle anything above 160*F for extended use. One said it would handle the temps short term, but would get brittle. Polypropylene will handle higher temps, but at those prices you might as well go stainless........which is what I did. I passed 50 last year and don't want to be messin' around with tanks in 5, 10 or 15 years. In 30 years my son will be 50 and still using the SS tank. Cheap isn't always cheap. Time has a value greater than most put on it. My two cents.

Absolutely agree on that point. I believe the old saying is I am too poor to buy cheap stuff. In other words buy what will last & serve you well.
 
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