Help on Boiler Comparison (Frohling 20\30)

hiker88 · Sep 8, 2011

I hesitate to ask this question, so please understand that I am not trying to put anyone on the spot with a "which boiler is the best" question.

I'm still investigating the possibility of converting my home to a wood boiler with storage setup. I've had some introductory discussions with an installer that I think is probably one of the more experienced (in the business a long time, very satisfied clients (I got recomendations from a couple people to go with them) etc.) companies in my area that does boiler systems. For systems with storage, this company only installs Tarm and Frohling boilers.

I have tracked my average oil consumption back to 2005 and shared this with the installer. A site visit is scheduled, but based upon square footage of the home, oil consumption etc., the installer believes the smallest boiler and 650 galls of storage will meet my needs - the site visit will firm that up.

I'd like to keep this an apples to apples comparison, so I'm wondering... If I limit my comparisons to the Frohling - it would be the 20\30 - what other manufactures make a similar product? I'm thiniking of things like warranty, automation, ease of cleaning etc. I'm interested in a boiler that has the automation because I know my nature. If the boiler can be constantly tweaked throughout the burn cycle to increase efficiency, I'm one of those geeks that will be down in the basement obsessing over every setting I could possibly change. The other bonus is that my installer says I can pretty much burn any kind of wood as long as it is properly seasoned. He said most manual boilers are fine when setup to burn only one kind of wood, but if you find yourself burning a mix of woods or hard and soft woods, you can improve efficiency if you make the correct adjustments. I'll definetly be burning a mix of wood as some will be delivered and some will be whatever I cut down on the property a mix from spruce to maple.

So to sum up, what's a competitor to the Frohing 20\30 so I can check them out too? If anyone has experience with other similar boilers, or the Frohling itself I'd appreciate your insight as well.

Thank you.

Stickler · Sep 11, 2011

I think the Frohling stands alone with automation, software, fan induced draft systems and construction. I presently have an older manual Tarm, but if it ever developed problems Frohling would be my choice. Even the graphic display that suggests how much wood should be added during burns means maybe, just maybe some other family members could tend the boiler.

Being dependent on software and cpu systems to run the boiler, a backup power system for our Maine days without electricity might be a good idea.

Burning both hard and softwood, IMHO, is a must to increase the payback of a wood system. With my old Tarm, depending on time of year and outside temps and DHW demand, I will burn the mix I feel will give me what I need. With low cost (or free) wood, storage and a commitment to not only winter but shoulder seasons and summer DHW you will be very happy with the Frohling.

Hope this helps.

Steve

Clarkbug · Sep 11, 2011

I just wanted to touch on one point Stickler made. (Note, I dont have any first-hand knowledge of the Froling, this is an opinion piece)

I had looked at the Froling boiler as well, and its a very nice machine. It looks like a racecar, and performs just about like one too it seems. It does require storage, just as an FYI. But the one thing that sorta made me leery was the power requirements. The dealer I spoke with mentioned that it really likes "clean" power, and suggested that I would need to have a power conditioner installed on the circuit feeding the boiler. This had me worried, as we loose power several times a year during the winter, and I highly doubt that my generator puts out a nice clean sine wave. The power conditioner is a good thing, but a power surge can do them in as well.

So I was worried that when I really needed heat (in the middle of an ice storm or something) that my generator would cook the controls on the boiler. I was told a replacement control board is $1000.

Again, this is all just my thought process, and I dont claim that any of the above is 100% factual, since Im not a dealer or anything along those lines. I just wanted to let you know my thought process. I ended up buying a boiler that has much simpler controls (KISS principle), which I know will come at the sacrifice of some efficiency for my system. Then again, I knew that if I had to replace that control just once, that would pretty much eliminate the savings gained by higher efficiency.

I believe that Vigas makes a lambda controlled boiler, as does Effecta. You may want to take a look at those if you are looking for other boilers with the same type of sensors/controls.

Good luck in your research!

nrford · Sep 11, 2011

Effecta will save you a big chunk of change!

TCaldwell · Sep 11, 2011

Although the vigas, effecta and froling share the same o2 feedback hardware, do not assume that makes them equal in performance. If you are considering a advanced control boiler, you should personally watch a burn of each one and pay attention to how successful at maintaining the o2 setpoint. then investigate the programming options of each controller, you will see why quality is expensive. Yes in your case the power issue is of concern for any sensitive electronics that all the above boilers share.

boilermanjr · Sep 14, 2011

Gentlemen, I am the owner of Tarm USA. I am not aware of a power supply sensitivity with the Froling produts. We have had superb results with the microprocessor control. There have been failures due to direct lightning strikes, customers playing electrician for the day, and from what we think is mouse urine (there were droppings on the printed circuit board). I too had reservations about the complexity and cost of the controls when we began importing this line. I am now convinced that Froling has built the controls to last and perform well. Froling uses the same core control module on ALL of their boilers from the smallest residential boiler to large commercial boilers. There are tens of thousands of these controls in use. I bet if you surveyed our customers there might be something like 2% (or fewer) that have line conditioners. I run an FHG and a P4 in my home in Northern NH without any line conditioning.

The early P4 boilers had a communication issue between control modules during power interruptions where one control module would receive power milliseconds before another module and the machine thought there was a problem. That was corrected with a simple software update. The FHG wood boilers have never experienced any communication type problems to my knowledge because there is only one module.

I would like to know more about the power sensitivity claim. This is the first time I have heard it mentioned. If it is not a breech of trust to provide me with the contact information for the person who has mentioned the topic, I would appreciate the chance to learn more. We always like to hear about potential weak points so that we can try to fix them.

hiker88 · Sep 14, 2011

Stickler said:
Being dependent on software and cpu systems to run the boiler, a backup power system for our Maine days without electricity might be a good idea.
Steve

Hey everyone,

Thanks for the feedback so far. I'm still plugging away at this. I've had a couple setbacks 1) It's going to be more than I thought to retrofit my home with a proper chimney and 2) I found out that my town hasn't done the proper paperwork yet for me to be eligible for a PACE loan through Efficiency Maine - but I've heard the town can do that pretty easily and my town manager said he will get into it as soon as he gets back to vacation next week.

So, the feedback here has given me the chance to check out some other web sites and start getting some more info which is what I wanted. I've found this whole process to be pretty unique. It's not like buying a car or something where we just tend to know A compares to B etc and I only know one person who has a wood boiler. So thanks for the considerate replies.

I've quoted Steve because he's raised another question for me regarding back-up power. Even without the cpu of the Frohling, you can't run wood boilers in general without power right? Is the induction fan required or say, in a power failure situation, do you still have a functional wood boiler, just not gassification?

I do have a generator, I'm just curious what happens if I am not there. I know there is supposed to be some kind of "safety" circuit in the plumbing if the power goes out, but do you get any heat off that?

Thanks again for the time you've spent responding to my novice questions.

Clarkbug · Sep 14, 2011

hiker88 said:
Stickler said:

Being dependent on software and cpu systems to run the boiler, a backup power system for our Maine days without electricity might be a good idea.
Steve

Click to expand...

Hey everyone,

Thanks for the feedback so far. I'm still plugging away at this. I've had a couple setbacks 1) It's going to be more than I thought to retrofit my home with a proper chimney and 2) I found out that my town hasn't done the proper paperwork yet for me to be eligible for a PACE loan through Efficiency Maine - but I've heard the town can do that pretty easily and my town manager said he will get into it as soon as he gets back to vacation next week.

So, the feedback here has given me the chance to check out some other web sites and start getting some more info which is what I wanted. I've found this whole process to be pretty unique. It's not like buying a car or something where we just tend to know A compares to B etc and I only know one person who has a wood boiler. So thanks for the considerate replies.

I've quoted Steve because he's raised another question for me regarding back-up power. Even without the cpu of the Frohling, you can't run wood boilers in general without power right? Is the induction fan required or say, in a power failure situation, do you still have a functional wood boiler, just not gassification?

I do have a generator, I'm just curious what happens if I am not there. I know there is supposed to be some kind of "safety" circuit in the plumbing if the power goes out, but do you get any heat off that?

Thanks again for the time you've spent responding to my novice questions.

To address your power outage question, there are some boilers that are natural draft, and will continue to operate in a power outage. The issue is that then there typically is no way to move the heat to the zones that need it, as the circ pumps will have lost power. Unless you have an old gravity hot water system, you are correct that you will have a problem.

The solution that many manufacturers suggest is to install some bare fin tube in the boiler room above the level of the boiler and have it connected to an AutoMag valve. This valve is held closed with electricity during normal boiler operation, but when the power goes out, it allows for water to naturally thermosiphon through the loop and reject the heat. Assuming that you do have an induced draft boiler, it will now have shut down, and the fin tube rejects the heat until you can get home, hook up the generator, and start firing again.

An alternative that some use is to install a UPS or battery backup to power the boiler/pumps while they are away. Your situation and funding may determine the optimal method for you.

Tarm also suggests (in their online schematics) the use of an aquasat connected to the boiler that will activate the largest heating loop in your house in the event that the boiler gets too hot. This creates a dump zone, and also alerts you (if you are home) that something is going on with the system, since your house is now very warm. Of course, this only works if there is power to your circulators.

Good luck, keep reading!

Clarkbug · Sep 14, 2011

boilermanjr said:
Gentlemen, I am the owner of Tarm USA. I am not aware of a power supply sensitivity with the Froling produts. We have had superb results with the microprocessor control. There have been failures due to direct lightning strikes, customers playing electrician for the day, and from what we think is mouse urine (there were droppings on the printed circuit board). I too had reservations about the complexity and cost of the controls when we began importing this line. I am now convinced that Froling has built the controls to last and perform well. Froling uses the same core control module on ALL of their boilers from the smallest residential boiler to large commercial boilers. There are tens of thousands of these controls in use. I bet if you surveyed our customers there might be something like 2% (or fewer) that have line conditioners. I run an FHG and a P4 in my home in Northern NH without any line conditioning.

The early P4 boilers had a communication issue between control modules during power interruptions where one control module would receive power milliseconds before another module and the machine thought there was a problem. That was corrected with a simple software update. The FHG wood boilers have never experienced any communication type problems to my knowledge because there is only one module.

I would like to know more about the power sensitivity claim. This is the first time I have heard it mentioned. If it is not a breech of trust to provide me with the contact information for the person who has mentioned the topic, I would appreciate the chance to learn more. We always like to hear about potential weak points so that we can try to fix them.

Boilerman,

Glad to hear that this isnt a problem with the unit. I will refrain from mentioning it again here on the open forums, as I dont want to perpetuate anything that isnt true. (I also freely admit Im new to this stuff, so my other advise may be less than technically sound, but thats just an honest whoops).

I had asked about the voltage of the Froling as well as if it was OK with the power output of a portable generator. I was told that "The Froling is 240v and has a lot of electronics. A line conditioner would be a good idea". I then asked about the cost for the board and was given the $1000 figure. I was also told that "Innova is much simpler electronics wise and you would not need a conditioner."

At this point I jumped ahead to my own conclusion that if I hooked up the generator and fried the electronics due to no power conditioner, I would not have the controllers covered under warranty. Perhaps I should have clarified what was "required" and what was "suggested", but I didnt dig into it much further since the cost of the system exceeded what I could put into it at the time.

So, I was relaying my opinions/experiences, but Im happy to defer to your information on the systems. I just hope you can see where my thought process was coming from.

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Help on Boiler Comparison (Frohling 20\30)

hiker88

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Stickler

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Clarkbug

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nrford

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TCaldwell

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boilermanjr

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hiker88

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Clarkbug

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Clarkbug

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