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$16,943.00 later and I still have the oil guy coming tomorrow!!!

Post in 'The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces' started by infinitymike, Nov 29, 2011.

  1. infinitymike

    infinitymike Minister of Fire

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    I think I follow you but I will read it a couple times over.

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  2. infinitymike

    infinitymike Minister of Fire

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    Are those time AM or PM and what time zone are we in? :cheese:
    Sorry couldn't resist.

    I followed you up to the part where 2.33 gpm is happy turning and yielding a net flow of 4.66
    Where did those #'s come from and what is happy turning.
    Wait I think I figured out happy turning but please explain it anyway.
  3. infinitymike

    infinitymike Minister of Fire

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    The last pic I posted is NOT what I'm burning that was a logging truck I hi-jacked. But I AM burning wood that was cut/split and stacked in mid September (this year).
    I re-split most of it into halves and some into thirds because I am afraid that it is to big and wet to burn properly. However, when I re-split it has a moisture reading of 18-22% It is all maple.
  4. infinitymike

    infinitymike Minister of Fire

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    Yes both lines of the WG are insulated and 60 feet(total of 120') are indoors.
  5. Willman

    Willman Minister of Fire

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    Ding Ding we have the problem solved mostly with this statement. The btus used to drive off excessive moisture should be going to heating the house not the wood.

    Get going on your wood supply for the next two years.
    Buy some biobrick or similar and see how the boiler does maybe even get some kiln dried cord wood, when boiler works as expected, problem solved.

    Will
  6. infinitymike

    infinitymike Minister of Fire

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    Right now the DHW comes out of a coil in the OB only. The OB is maintaing a low temp just for the DHW and to ready in case it actually needs to be used for heat. Is it possible to get any warm water out of the OB into the primary loop if it is only supply DHW.
  7. infinitymike

    infinitymike Minister of Fire

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    Right now the DHW comes out of a coil from the OB only.

    My next plan is since I just bought a new Weil Mclain Gold plus 40 indirect DHW tank is to supply it from the primary loop as a zone, so either the OB or WG can heat the primary loop and feed the tank.

    If I take the cold water from the street and plumb it into the coil of the WG and then out (now hot) into the tank and then out of the tank to the different fixtures how can I ever heat it with oil if I needed to?
  8. bpirger

    bpirger Minister of Fire

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    If you go through the WG coil first, into your new tank, then the new tank would be heated further from the primary loop, I'd think you'd be all set. Whatever doesn't get heated in the WG would have the aqustat in the new DHW tank turn on, so the pump would go on in the DHW secondary loop to heat the tank. If the WG is cold, say all summer, the water flows through it into the DHW tank, and the aqustat on the DHW turns on the oil boiler and the pump. Might need to have a control to turn on the OB if the WG is cold...that's what I do.
  9. infinitymike

    infinitymike Minister of Fire

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    Heres where all the money went so far.
    $ 8,800 for Wood Gun
    $2,700 labor for installer ($80/hour) he worked by himself.
    $2,800 plumbing parts
    $900 flue pipe
    $1,300 in materials for boiler room stuff.
    $400 for 2 cords of wood that were supposed to be seasoned

    I am allready looking for a storage tank or two or three, maybe I'll be the guy with 1500 gallons or more of storage. :coolhmm:
  10. infinitymike

    infinitymike Minister of Fire

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    So I still have it tied into the primary as a zone?
    Not sure I follow the piping .
    Do I have two supplies into the tank? One from the WG coil and one from the primary loop with a zone pump?Where does the return of the WG coil water go?
  11. Gasifier

    Gasifier Minister of Fire

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    Heres where all the money went so far.
    $ 8,800 for Wood Gun
    $2,700 labor for installer ($80/hour) he worked by himself.
    $2,800 plumbing parts
    $900 flue pipe
    $1,300 in materials for boiler room stuff.
    $400 for 2 cords of wood that were supposed to be seasoned
    I am allready looking for a storage tank or two or three, maybe I’ll be the guy with 1500 gallons or more of storage.


    I forgot about the flue pipe (I had mine already because of wood stove) and all the material to change part of the garage over to boiler room. So minus the flue pipe, the garage conversion, and the wood, you are like 14,400ish. So you are doing fine. As far as the tank goes, I personally would go with a pressurized tank(s). Find a used, ASME rated tank(s). A tank that was once used as an air pressure tank will be nice and clean. Some use propane or other tanks. But either way, a pressurised system is simple. Once it is full, heated, and the air is out of the system, no worries after that. It will all come together for ya man. I think your green wood may be part of your problem. But just part of it. I think, if you are not getting very good heat, there is more problem going on there than just green wood.
  12. bpirger

    bpirger Minister of Fire

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    There's many ways to skin the cat here for sure....

    I understood the coil in the WG to be for heating DHW...i.e. you pass the cold potable in one end, and out comes the hot potable water. So then if this goes into the new DHW tank potable "in", it will go into the tank hot if the WG is hot. The new tank potable "hot" out goes off to the house. I would also think that the new tank has a coil in and a coil out to heat the water in the DHW tank, controlled by an aquastat. So these two lines, the coil IN and coil OUT on the indirect tank would be connected to the primary loop as a secondary loop, i.e. closely spaced tees, and there'd also be a pump in this secondary loop to heat the DHW tank when necessary. The aqustat would turn on the circulator in this indirect DHW loop.

    Now, when the DHW needs to be heated, you also have to turn on the primary loop pump and the WG pump to put heat into the primary loop.... OR, if the wood gun is cold, i.e. summer time, you will have to fire the oil boiler and turn on the primary pump... In both cases, the DHW indirect pump would have to run too.

    Does that make sense? So the indirect tank sits on a secondary loop with its own pump....and in any case, the primary loop pump has to be turned on and the DHW secondary pump. If the WG is hot, its pump is on. If the oil boiler has to fire, it fires.
  13. ewdudley

    ewdudley Minister of Fire

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    Maybe I'm dating myself.

    Do you know about the old kind of clocks with the big hand and the little hand and all that?

    Suppose your primary loop is like the face of one of those old kind of clocks with the big hand and the little hand and all those numbers in a circle.

    I believe the pump in your primary loop sends the water in a counterclockwise direction, that is to say the opposite direction that the big hand and the little hand go round and round on those old kind of clocks. Does your primary loop pump send the water counterclockwise?

    For the purpose of describing where the pipes connect to your primary loop, would it make sense to say that the oil boiler lines connect to the primary loop at two points on either side of 9:00 o'clock? Now, it looks like the circ on the oil boiler pulls from '9:30' and returns to '8:30'. Is this true or not?

    For the purpose of describing where the pipes connect to your primary loop, would it make sense to say that the wood boiler lines connect to the primary loop at two points on either side of 3:00 o'clock? Now, it looks like the circ on the wood boiler pulls from '2:30' and returns to '3:30'. Is this true or not?

    For the purpose of describing where the pipes connect to your primary loop, would it make sense to say that the load lines pull from the primary loop at two points on either side of noon and return to two points on either side of 6:00? Now, it looks like one load pulls from '11:30' and returns to '6:30', while the other load pulls from '12:30' and returns to '5:30'. Is this true or not?

    So now get a piece of paper and draw the primary loop and the four circuits that connect to it along with the five pumps. Then, for the purpose of analysis, suppose that the rate of flow of water entering and leaving each pump is as described above, and then work through where all the water has to go if all the flows are as described.

    'Happy-turning' is a term-of-art. It describes any situation where something or someone is going through the motions to no effect, as with a child working a ratchet wrench roundy-round backwards because he likes the sound and it makes him happy. In your case, any of the flow that arrived from the wood boiler at 3:30 and then immediately returned from 2:30 without delivering any heat to the primary loop would be 'happy-turning' flow.
  14. bpirger

    bpirger Minister of Fire

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    So in other words, the WG hot water is coming in at 3:30 but much of it will leave the primary loop at 2:30, going back to the wood gun, without ever circulating around the primary loop! So you are NOT getting all the hot water in the primary loop from the WG, much of it goes right back to the WG.

    But, if the wood gun hot water came INTO the primary loop at 2:30, and left the primary loop at 3:30 to go back to the WG, it would go all the way around the primary loop, heating up the primary loop fully, faster....
  15. goosegunner

    goosegunner Minister of Fire

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    My primary loop is a U shape not circular, supply comes in on top and close T's on the bottom for zones then to return. Is there a reson to not do it that way?

    gg
  16. ewdudley

    ewdudley Minister of Fire

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    Yes, this is what I suspect, but can't be sure from the information available. If true it would help explain some of the performance problem.
  17. bpirger

    bpirger Minister of Fire

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    Mike, how has the system been running in this somewhat colder weather?
  18. Gasifier

    Gasifier Minister of Fire

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    Now that you mention it GG, that is more like how my primary loop is. All 1-1/2" pipe from Gun and tank and back. Manifolds to zones, which are 3/4". Mike's Wood Gun is sort of trying to feed his primary loop from it's secondary loop status. The piping from Mike's Wood Gun is reduced to 1" or 1-1/4" (I can't remember which), and combined that with then feeding into primary loop from secondary loop status. I am not a pipe fitter/boiler man, that is for certain, but if those things are combined with a pumping and/or air problem like others are talking about, you could certainly see not getting the good performance from the system.

    Any progress Mike? Had any good heat demand yet?
  19. huffdawg

    huffdawg Minister of Fire

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    What did you pay for your foam job? Gasser . Do you have 2 -200 gal. tanks or one 400

    Huff
  20. Gasifier

    Gasifier Minister of Fire

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    What did you pay for your foam job? Gasser . Do you have 2 -200 gal. tanks or one 400
    Huff


    The Froth-pak 180, which can cover about 200 board feet with 1†thick, cost me $369. Then I spent about $30 on a tyvek suit, which is optional. (Could use old clothing you don’t care about and be careful.) And hood to cover head and neck, $10. Then good mask or borrow a respirator. I had all the windows open in my basement with a box fan running so I did not breath anything in. A good N95 mask does the trick when you have good ventilation. It is expensive. But you can not beat the seal you get. I have one 400 gallon tank. Here is a link to a thread with pictures of my tank when done with insulation.

    http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/81767/
  21. infinitymike

    infinitymike Minister of Fire

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    If I leave my OB and WG tees where they are and leave the load line where they are and flip the primary loop circ pump to flow clockwise, would that help.

    Is there a benefit to move the supply and return lines of the 2 zones to be next to each other with closely spaced tees instead of at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock?
  22. infinitymike

    infinitymike Minister of Fire

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    Sorry EWD,
    I typed answers in red in between the text your reply but they didnt show up that way.

    So here they are more clearly.

    Yes it pumps counter clockwise.

    Actually the OB supplies to the loop above the return tee. So it supplies hot water at 9:30 and returns to the OB at 8:30

    The WG supplies to the loop below the return tee. So it supplies hot water at 3:30 and returns to the WG at 2:30

    Yes it is true. The load lines are at pull out of the loop at noon and return back at 6

    If I leave my OB and WG tees where they are and leave the load line where they are and flip the primary loop circ pump to flow clockwise, would that help.

    Is there a benefit to move the supply and return lines of the 2 zones to be next to each other with closely spaced tees instead of at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock?
  23. infinitymike

    infinitymike Minister of Fire

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    Believe it or not its still really warm here. Today was 62*. By Saturday we should be back to normal temps for this time of year are 40ish during day and 30ish at night.

    Its ok , but I really don't know what to expect from the unit. I'm still trying to figure out when to burn and how much wood to use. and how big or small the splits should be.

    I will say this I have burnt a lot of wood, almost 1/2 a cord well maybe a little less like 3/8 and I haven't burned everyday. I can't imagine how much I will use when it gets cold. :ahhh:
    I have had 12 fires in 19 days.

    Another thing I noticed is, there have been a few times when I have a decent bed of coals in the AM and load it up half way and go to work. I come home 7-8 hours later and the unit is cool with a water temp of 150*, I open the firebox and most of the load is there and it is all charred like charcoal. When I throw some paper in and light it up it ignites the wood(charcoal) fast and burns real clean and hot. there's no smoke immediately and the temp can get to 190 in a few minutes. But if the unit is 150* and I throw fresh wood in and light it up it has a ton of smoke for several minutes and can take more then double the time to raise the temp up. So I definitely need dryer wood. And then also need to address the plumbing issues.
  24. ewdudley

    ewdudley Minister of Fire

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    Nice! But I think you'd have to reverse the flow of both the load circulators as well. Would that be possible? Plus if you reversed the load pumps you'd be 'pumping away', which is sometimes necessary and always foolproof.

    Otherwise all the hot wood boiler water entering at 3:30 will mix with the load return flows at 5:30 and 6:30. Then most of the mixed flow goes out the top to the loads and the rest of the mixed flow returns to the boiler at 2:30. Mixing hot boiler water with load return water would be another version of the problem you have now, so not good.

    Having them on opposite sides of the primary might work quite well in you situation.

    Closely spaced tees will help guarantee that there won't be any unwanted parallel flows through idle loads, but I'm not convinced that is a problem you need to worry about in your system.

    Also closely spaced tees will tend to prioritize your loads in the order that they pull from the primary loop, which could be an advantage, or not, depends on the type of loads and what your design goals are.

    Hang in there, sounds like you may be able to get it straitened out without reworking any of the plumbing.

    Cheers --ewd
  25. ewdudley

    ewdudley Minister of Fire

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    Forgot to mention that if you flip the primary loop pump, then going by the book you'd need to flip the motor assembly on the volute as well in order to keep the junction box on top.

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