2 cycle oil

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maverick06

Minister of Fire
Sep 27, 2008
827
media, pa
I was dropping my generator off at the service center. This place wasn't a service center, but a beast of a machine shop! Talk about a competent group of guys (or so it seems)... anyways, of interest.

The guy mentioned that he has been having a few customers returning with terribly galled cylinders on 2 cycle engines. The conclusion they came to was that it appears that some old 2 cycle engine oils have degraded performance in ethanol gas, reduced lubricity. The shop couldnt confirm anything, but said to try synthetic oil, and the problem stopped reoccurring.

true or not, they seemed to have a connection between old style oils (he didnt mention any brands), ethanol gas, and failed engines. They suggested any echo oils, or anything thats synthetic. And pretty much any stabilizer is good, as long as it says it is good for ethanol engines. They use sta-bil.

I will go that route with with oils... figured I would post it here.
 
This is what I use in all of my 2 stroke engines and I have never had a problem will galled cylinders.

http://www.belray.com/bel-ray-si-7-synthetic-2t-engine-oil

If it will keep this beast happy at 40:1 it will keep your other small engines happy as well.

ry=400
 
That an IT400? When I was about 14 a friend and I got to ride one that belonged to a relative. We had no business riding that thing. It's a miracle we didn't get killed.
 
JamiePNW78 said:
That an IT400? When I was about 14 a friend and I got to ride one that belonged to a relative. We had no business riding that thing. It's a miracle we didn't get killed.

Close. it is a 1983 IT 490.
Every time I ride it I also think that I have no business on that bike with an enormous grin on my face.
 
I use what lots of Ultralight Pilots swear by - Pennzoil Air Cooled oil at 32:1.

If those guys trust their life to it I will trust my saw.
 
I've switched from Stihl's 50:1 Ultra HP (a synthetic) to a well-known synthetic mixed at 100:1 (Betcha can't guess which one! ;-) ). So far so good and no ill effects observed. Not even a re-tune on some of my "test engines". I will report back if I blow something up. :lol:
 
My Stihl dealer recommended getting non-ethanol gas when possible. I've always heard to avoid ethanol for boats and motorcycles, or anything that might not get used on a regular basis. There's a couple of stations around here that have ethanol-free gas so that's what I always get for my bike and my saw. More than the ethanol issue, my dealer really emphasized buying premium gas for the saw. He never said anything about running synthetic oil although I'm sure it's not a bad idea. For the small price difference and small quantities that most people use, mixing synthetic oil is cheap insurance.
 
I too just buy ethanol free for my small engines, and my infrequently driven, older car.
 
Hey GMULE. I used to have an IT175, can't remember the year '78 or '79 maybe.
Bought if from a gal who used to hare scramble race it. I was just a kid.
Had it bored out just a little bit. That thing would hit the power band and
just scream like a ra_ed ape! Had a lot of fun with that bike, sold it to buy a car.
Thanks for the memories.
 
MasterMech said:
I've switched from Stihl's 50:1 Ultra HP (a synthetic) to a well-known synthetic mixed at 100:1 (Betcha can't guess which one! ;-) ). So far so good and no ill effects observed. Not even a re-tune on some of my "test engines". I will report back if I blow something up. :lol:

I found something interesting regarding this magical Ultra HP at:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10737624/anchors_10792859/mpage_5/key_/anchor/tm.htm#10792859

Check it out about 1/4 way down the page.

"I found something interesting today in my search for a local equivalent to Stihl HP Ultra.

It has been mentioned a few times that in Europe, the Ultra is made for Stihl by Castrol BP lubricants. In the USA it is blended and bottled by Omni to Stihls/Castrol's recipe.

Anyways, i was looking at Technical Data Sheets and MSDS's and found an oil in Castrol's inventory that exactly matches the specs of the HP ultra.

The oils is called Biolube 2T and it is......... wait for it........ an Outboard TC-W3 marine oil.

Could it be?

I've attached the sheets from both for comparison. "
 
Most of the galling I have seen was due to people running outboard mix (TCW3) in chainsaws. 2 stroke saw mix has a lot of ash in it for lubrication. They run hot enough to burn it off. Water cooled outboard oil has very little ash. Run saw mix in an outboard and it will load up and smoke like crazy, run outboard mix in a saw and you may just melt it down. I have never had an issue with ethanol other than the deposits and separation if it's old. Use good gas and good oil and you should be ok.
 
woodgeek said:
I too just buy ethanol free for my small engines, and my infrequently driven, older car.

Where can you get ethanol free gas in se pa?
 
Our local COOP caries ethanol free gas, I use it in everything. If I'm storing gas in cans for the small engines then I add STA-BIL to keep it fresh. I do try to empty the cans every 6 months even though STA-BIL guarantees it will keep fuel fresh for 12 months.
 
Best bet is to mix it as needed and never more than a gallon or so at a time. In the spring I put any leftover old gas in my mower. Old mix just goes on the burn pile. Ethanol does separate and cause problems but if you use fresh gas and use it within 6 months or so there should not be an issue. Most important is using the correctly rated oil for the equipment you are running. Not going to get into a discussion about amsoils or royal purples, I'm talking off the shelf oil. TWC3 is made for watercooled outboards, not saws.
 
Here in Oklahoma state law requires that gas stations post a sticker that says "contains up to 10% ethanol" on the pump. Some stations sell only real gas so that is where I buy all my gas. I try not to keep 2 cycle gas more than a couple months at a time. If it gets older than that I just dump it in my truck at fill up. A half gallon of 2 cycle isn't going to hurt a 26 gallon tank of gasoline.
 
I use whatever I have available for 2 stroke oil. I had been using Castrol 2T sled oil but right now I'm using Master Mechanic 2 stroke oil. We have E10 here and I run 91 octane E10 in all my outdoor gear including my saws. Haven't had any issues at all so far and I've been doing it this way for 3 years since the ethanol was introduced. My snowblower had gas in it from last year and fired up first pull still...not sure why people keep saying that ethanol messes up engines/gunks up carbs etc. I even run ethanol through my older snowblower (I have two) and it is a 1974 Toro with an 8hp Briggs (500cc single cylinder, tons of torque) and it loves the ethanol.
 
HeatsTwice said:
MasterMech said:
I've switched from Stihl's 50:1 Ultra HP (a synthetic) to a well-known synthetic mixed at 100:1 (Betcha can't guess which one! ;-) ). So far so good and no ill effects observed. Not even a re-tune on some of my "test engines". I will report back if I blow something up. :lol:

I found something interesting regarding this magical Ultra HP at:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10737624/anchors_10792859/mpage_5/key_/anchor/tm.htm#10792859

Check it out about 1/4 way down the page.

"I found something interesting today in my search for a local equivalent to Stihl HP Ultra.

It has been mentioned a few times that in Europe, the Ultra is made for Stihl by Castrol BP lubricants. In the USA it is blended and bottled by Omni to Stihls/Castrol's recipe.

Anyways, i was looking at Technical Data Sheets and MSDS's and found an oil in Castrol's inventory that exactly matches the specs of the HP ultra.

The oils is called Biolube 2T and it is......... wait for it........ an Outboard TC-W3 marine oil.

Could it be?

I've attached the sheets from both for comparison. "

It's possible for an oil certified for Air-Cooled 2-strokes to meet standards for lower temp water-cooled 2-strokes. The concern is using TCW-3 or other outboard oils that are NOT certified for air-cooled use.
 
joecool85 said:
...not sure why people keep saying that ethanol messes up engines/gunks up carbs etc.

I do. Since it has plugged up one of my genny carbs, my splitter carb and one of my saws just in the last year.
 
I have been thinking about this for quite a while.... for years I did nothing, no stabilizer, left them sit with fuel over winter, no love, and everything worked out just fine. But some of the newer engines seem to be more susceptible to this problem, I have read of a lot of problem and have experienced it at least twice myself while the older engines I have dont seem to care. As I am running the same fuel through all of them, I am wondering if modern engines have poorly designed/built carbs (made in china) or maybe they are just "better" designed and more fuel efficient, as such the clearances are really tight, more likely to gum up.

Regardless. I am a believer, and am stabilizing all my fuel. I have some old fuel too ( 3/4 of a gal, about 6-9 months old but stabilized) which i will finish up in the lawnmower, because i know it doesnt care. I thought about tossing it into the car, but I didnt want to burn anything sketchy in a much more expensive engine.
 
I don't put any old fuel in my car. When I had an older carbuerated truck I'd mix in a few gallons of old junk in a tank and never had any ill effects but with new fuel injected/computer driven motors it's just not worth it to me to try. Lawn mower gets the old fuel. For mixed fuel I just look at the color, if it's starting to turn back to brown and doesn't look like mixed fuel any more it gets tossed. Not worth a few bucks to go through a carb job or ruin a saw or outboard. As for stabilzer I put it in the tank of the equipment, but for me it depends on the equipment. Some of my older bikes have ignitions that don't have very strong spark (just the nature of the design) and they want good fresh fuel to run on, the stabil seems to make them hard to start and they don't run as well. As for seperation there are so many environmental factors involved that it's best just to learn to look and smell the fuel. You can tell if it's starting to turn bad.

Now for mix: Once someone gets an idea about which mix is best or "I've run the same mix in everything" , or "my oil is better than your oil" you are not going to convince them otherwise. To try is futile. When properly rated for the equipment your running and properly mixed I have never had an issue with any brand of oil. Having said that, overall mix oil is cheap. I use Stihl, Husky, or Echo oil in all my 2-stroke air cooled equipment. Don't know if it makes a difference but a few cents more is OK by me.
 
BrotherBart said:
joecool85 said:
...not sure why people keep saying that ethanol messes up engines/gunks up carbs etc.

I do. Since it has plugged up one of my genny carbs, my splitter carb and one of my saws just in the last year.

It's not the ethanol itself that gums up carbs. It's less-than-ideal fuel storage habits and incompatibility with rubber used in fuel systems decades ago that are now an issue. Leaving storage cans and fuel tanks half empty and vented to atmosphere (do you leave older style cans "vented" to prevent pressure build up? Almost all fuel tanks are vented on small equipment...) allows the tank to "breathe" and the water vapor in the air can be absorbed by the ethanol (or any alcohol for that matter). Usually these small amounts of water are carried through the fuel system and burnt off in the engine. With the older fuels, water would just build up on the bottom of the tank/can until it became a problem. Once the ethanol reaches a certain "saturation point" however, it phase separates from the rest of the fuel. That mixture of alcohol & water is what doesn't play nice with the aluminum carburetors on our toys. Poly cans and tanks used on newer equipment breathe (expand) a lot more than the steel tanks on older equipment which can compound the problem. Storing equipment outside or in sheds that see drastic temperature swings also accelerates the accumulation of moisture. Here in the northeast snowblowers are stored during an off-season that sees hot, often humid days and significantly cooler nights. Guess what 90% of the snowblowers I work on need? Carburetor cleaning and sometimes rebuild/replacement.

I store some of my equipment in my garage which is insulated and sheet-rocked but not heated or air-conditioned. I have one particular machine, a John Deere 180 that I picked up in the early spring as "junk". It had been sitting for months previous to that, outside. It ran when I brought it home, stored it in the garage until this week, and still runs on the same fuel that is now at least a year old and untreated as far as I know. (I can smell Sta-Bil and few other additives that are distinct.) There was less than 1/4 of tank in it too. The point is moving it into the garage which is a fairly stable temperature probably saved me 30-40 mins worth of carburetor futzing or a complete rebuild this winter. I had a LT155 that I picked up at the same time and had to store outside. Guess what was a total mess when I went through that one in Sept? Yup, Carb had all kinds of water/fish eggs in it.

My advice for storing equipment has always been, tank full, carburetor empty for 4-strokes that will be stored for one off season, and empty tank, run the carb dry for small hand-held equipment like saws and trimmers. Many good 2-cycle mixing oils have a fuel stabilizer in them that will allow you to store that fuel in the best of conditions, about 9 mos to a year without damage. It may not run the same as it does on fresh mix but it's a reasonable back-up plan. Adding stabilizer never hurts (regardless of brand), and storing in a shed is much better than outside but not as good as a insulated garage. If you will be storing for longer than one off-season, it's worth the trouble to empty the fuel system.
 
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