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30 NC hearth check please

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by n3pro, Mar 4, 2012.

  1. n3pro

    n3pro Minister of Fire

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    First pic, first question. The Englander 30 has landed in my garage. I found I can move it by using a 2 x 4 under the pallet, lifting up and sliding it. I'm thinking about doing the break in fire in the driveway. I did a search for break in on pallet, break in fire, and couldn't find the answer. I'm assuming the break in fire (paint smellage fire) isn't hot enough to burn the pallet, but want to make sure before I make a neighborhood spectacle and ruin a new stove; can I leave it on the pallet in the driveway for the break in fire?

    Second, I put cardboard on top of the 30 to get the measurements, then laid the cardboard down so the corners were 15 inches from the pre-fab walls to see where it would sit. Unfortunately it's right on the edge of the prefab hearth. The floor is ceramic tile which is not combustable, under it is cement board which is not combustable, but under that is plywood which is (third pic from the heat duct); so . . . would that be safe or would I have to extend the hearth?

    Attached Files:

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  2. bluedogz

    bluedogz Minister of Fire

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    That will never work... if you bring it to my house we can install it ZC into a fireplace. You're welcome.














    Seriously, tho... I got no idea. Sorry.
  3. Pallet Pete

    Pallet Pete Guest

    I wouldn't leave it on the pallet just cuz I am paranoid about that sort of thing! It doesn't seem like the first 2 smaller fires would hurt but be cautious on the larg 3rd breaking fire if your gonna do it that way. Personally I have found it better to break in with the full setup connected so it drafts right and does not overheat or smoke out all over.

    Pete
  4. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    Burn in on the pallet will be fine. If you are nervous about it put a sheet of aluminum foil under it in the center. Shiny side up.

    Waste of foil but...
  5. oldspark

    oldspark Guest

    If that pallet gets hot enough to burn then you can scrap out your new stove.
  6. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    I wouldn't worry about the outdoor burn. It will be relatively short and generously air-cooled. You will be working to get the stove up to 500F with a short flue.

    The 30 NC requires R = 1.5 which is substantial. It looks like your hearth pad might just cover it, but this is subjective from pictures. Can you provide a more accurate top view drawing with dimensions? That will help eliminate speculation and will be a good document for the inspecting authority.
  7. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    The real hot spot with the 30 is out in front of it. The sucker throws a ton of radiant heat out and down through that big glass when it is rocking.
  8. pen

    pen There are some who call me...mod. Staff Member

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    Agreed. Always makes me laugh when the hottest spot around or under the stove is outside of the specified hearth pad range, even when I have this thing humpin'.

    My guess is that the high requirement for the hearth pad is because of the ash pan that very few people use.

    pen
  9. greythorn3

    greythorn3 Minister of Fire

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    boy i remember when my englander was all new and pretty like that, those were the days! now its not off enough to get a chance to clean it up.
  10. n3pro

    n3pro Minister of Fire

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    Hopefully this comes out @BeGreen

    Incase it's tough to see, the 60 1/2 is from the corner to the front. The Napoleon from ash lip to the front is 18 inches and the stove is about 18 inches front to back not including the heat shield.

    Attached Files:

  11. n3pro

    n3pro Minister of Fire

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    Though I read through the manual a few times I was always reading this -

    "If your floor is constructed with a combustible material such as hardwood, carpet or linoleum, you must place protection between the stove and the combustible material." on page 8.

    Since I have ceramic tile and under it is cement board I skipped this part -

    "The protection must have an R-value of 1.5 (English units) or equivalent (See “Installation on a Combustible Floorâ€). This stove requires a minimum 39.0†x 52.5†floor protection."

    So now two questions I got to think about. 1) Do I want to take out the current hearth pad and try to sell it with the stove and get a larger one or 2) build up the floor 18" x 39". If I do that, I'd probably change the orientation to a side instead of diagonal. If I change the orientation using the current pad, it's 47 inches at the longest point before it curves so I would only have 5 inches to build up.

    Decisions.
  12. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    I drew this out, but I don't have accurate dimensions for the 30NC. The Englander website lists the depth as 31". That doesn't pencil in right on your small hearth. But I can't say how much because that has to be from ash lip to rear fan? Did you cut that cardboard to match the specs on the website? It's position in the picture matches what I drew out pretty closely.
  13. DexterDay

    DexterDay Guest

    The 31" depth is without the fan installed. It is 31" from ash lip to the back heat shield (where the blower mounts too). So add the few inches for the blower...
  14. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Thanks. This has been a long term problem with Englander docs. They need to include front, side and top view dimensions to make it easier for customers working out clearance and hearth dimensions. This info should at least be available on the website.

    How far in front of the stove glass is it to the edge of the ash lip? 4"?

    n3pro, I'm sorry to say this, but by my calculations the hearth pad is too small for adequate protection in front of the stove according to the mfg. requirements.
  15. DexterDay

    DexterDay Guest

    The ash lip from the end to the stove body is about 4 7/8". From the ash lip.to the end of the door is about 3 7/8" (end of door).
  16. n3pro

    n3pro Minister of Fire

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    Glad for the warm weather so I can work on this.

    I cut the cardboard from the top. Here is what I worked out. I cut the wood strips 40 and 53 - the manual says the hearth needs to be a minimum of 39 x 52.5. Then it says minimum 8 inches sides and back and 16 inches front. The wood strips would be the hearth and the cardboard is the stove again. The cardboard to the side wall is 16 inches and 8 inches from the back wall. I did diagonal which I like but don't think that's feasible anymore and straight on.

    I'm trying to figure out if I want to take up the hearth I got and put down two layers of Micore 300 which would be more then enough, then have the a flooring guy come and tile it or try to get a pre-fab hearth.

    Something else confused me last night as far as wall protection. Current walls don't have the air space because I really could have gotten away without them plenty of clearance, not so with the 30. On page 9 it says

    2 WALL PROTECTION

    Please see Illustration 1 for clearances to walls. In some areas local codes may require thirty- six inches (36â€) from a combustible; therefore it is very important that you check with local officials. If you need to place your unit closer to a combustible wall, some protection will be necessary. If an approved wall board is used this will reduce your clearance by two thirds (2/3); however, a one inch (1â€) air space has to be between the board and the wall. If you have a ceiling flue hook-up, you will need protection from the floor to the ceiling if you do not meet the normal clearances. If you have a wall flue hook up, you will need wall protection at least twelve inches (12â€) above the wall thimble.

    This seems to me like they are talking about if there is not enough clearance from the flue pipe to the wall which I do, I'm interested in protection for the stove. I can't imagine the stove would throw out that much heat that I would need protection the whole way up past the flue wall hookup. I'm assuming the length would need to be the same as the hearth 52.5 inches on the side and 39 in the back which would mean I would have to conjure up something there too; but how high above the stove? I don't see an R value for the wall protection.

    You'd think being here since 2008 and doing all the reading on this I would understand it better then I seem to be. I'm not quite sure why I'm not understanding this as good as I think I should by now.

    Thank you everyone for your patience.

    Attached Files:

  17. n3pro

    n3pro Minister of Fire

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    Continuing update. Went to the local stove shop where I bought and had them install my current stove. They get their hearth pads from American Panel Hearth products. The quote is for a 48 x 54 standard which should be plenty but when I got home reading more into it, it has tapered sides.

    http://www.americanpanelhearth.com/Images/Documents for site/PAD DIMENSIONS 2012.pdf

    I only see a 54 x 54 and the square only goes up to 48 x 48. But under general information they do show a 48 x 54 square.

    http://www.americanpanelhearth.com/Images/Documents for site/American Panel Hearth Products 2011 SELECTION.pdf

    UGH! I sent an email for clarification, if I don't hear anything I'll call.

    Glad I started this project early. The company pulled my record and funny, I ordered my current stove 3/16/08 so almost 4 years.
  18. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    Question N3. Is the blower inside the stove when it ships like the legs and bricks? I am assuming that for shipping convenience it comes sitting on the ped. They used to have two pieces of steel bolted to the bottom to hold it up on the pallet before they started shipping with ped and legs. Which wasn't all that great. Both pieces smashed through the pallet on mine. Thanks to FedEx freight.
  19. n3pro

    n3pro Minister of Fire

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    Yes, the blower, legs, and bricks are inside. I'm surprised they weren't packed in with foam or something. Had to be bouncing around like crazy while shipping and moving. Mine came via Non-Stop Delivery Service. Although fortunately contrary to the the name they did stop to deliver.
  20. n3pro

    n3pro Minister of Fire

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    Quick update, new hearth and wall panels are in. Now just need warmer weather to stick around and bribe some people to help lug the stoves around and vola!

    Attached Files:

    pen likes this.
  21. n3pro

    n3pro Minister of Fire

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    So the Napoleon is now out. I bought little wheels to move it, worked well.

    IMAG0755.jpg

    Empty spot

    IMAG0754.jpg

    Moving the old wall pads for the 1 inch air space and changing the one to a longer one.

    IMAG0756.jpg

    Of course with my luck, a tile popped off.

    IMAG0757.jpg

    I decided (hopefully it's ok) to put the new pad on top of the old pad instead of tearing the old out, building up the floor where the old one was or cutting the ceramic tile to make this fit in. I figured extra protection.

    IMAG0769.jpg


    The hearth pad

    IMAG0767.jpg

    I used drywall screws in the motar joints.

    IMAG0771.jpg

    Where I am currently. Obviously the same style of tile has changed in the last 4 years GRRR! And I wanted to line up the motar joints but got frustrated. Chimney sweeps are coming today so I'll see how that goes, then its getting the Englander in and hooked up.

    IMAG0770.jpg
  22. n3pro

    n3pro Minister of Fire

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    I was surprised when the chimney sweeps came they helped me set the Englander in! They asked where the stove was, I said I'm waiting to bribe someone to help me lug it in; they asked where it was and I showed them this. They said no problem they are running early.

    IMAG0775.jpg

    I didn't want to spend a lot of money on stove pipe and screw it up (first time doing it) so I bough two pieces from Lowes and glad I did. The Sawzall jumping around man some ugly cuts.


    IMAG0776.jpg

    I have quite the rise, guess my measurements were a little off.

    I got 12 1/4 inches on the wall side, 12 inches to the back wall, 12 1/4 inches of hearth pad on the no wall side and 17 1/2 front. which is more then I planned.

    IMAG0782.jpg

    Now the question is do I want to buy better pipe now I got the measurements down, paint over the old elbow to make it look more uniform or give it some time.
  23. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    As you have discovered, a sawzall is definitely not the tool to use to cut stove pipe. Aviation sheers are made for this job.
  24. n3pro

    n3pro Minister of Fire

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    Experience don't always come easy.

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