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A decision has been reached...

Post in 'The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces' started by OldStoneHouse, Mar 21, 2013.

  1. OldStoneHouse

    OldStoneHouse Member

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    And a Tarm Innova 50 has been ordered. It's a red letter day - I'm very excited. I was close to going with a Vigas 40 but I really wanted an Innova and the extra 10 KW was a better fit I think. The Vigas 60 would have been too wide for the doorway where I needed it to go.

    Now it's plumbing time! I pick it up on April 6th so I hope to get my tank insulated in the meantime and be ready to go with that. Perhaps I will actually get some wood burned before the season is finished after all.

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  2. kopeck

    kopeck Minister of Fire

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    Congrats!

    I really like my Innova 30, I probably could have gone up one step but for 98% of the season sized well, the other 2% I just throw a few extra logs in.

    I hope you can get yours going quickly, I took a long time to do mine but it was just nights after the kids went to bed. I also found my self redoing things and learning on the fly.

    K
  3. bmblank

    bmblank Minister of Fire

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    Michigan
    I like my Innova 30 as well. Its surprising how fast it can heat my tank. And my dad is jealous of the size of my fire box. He says he can't fit nearly as much in his excel.
  4. AroostookDave

    AroostookDave Member

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    Congratulations! I have an Innova 50, my second year. Be sure to have plenty of storage because this will handle it. I have an unpressurised 850 gallon tank, but American solortechnics came out with a larger one soon after. Wish I had that one since the 50 would handle it. I use the Innova all year long, get close to a week of DHW on a burn in the summer. As long as you use fairly dry wood you should get no creosote, just a fine ash. My Tarm was installed by pros, so I can try to help as long as we don't get too technical.
  5. Congratulations. If you work at my pace you should have it ready for the first fire sometime in January.
  6. kopeck

    kopeck Minister of Fire

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    I'm glad I'm not the only one. :p

    K
  7. OldStoneHouse

    OldStoneHouse Member

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    Well we'll see how long it takes me...I'm not really in a rush but I would like to try it out of course. I've got to get the piping design figured out because my current system has the boiler as part of the primary loop. Will post a diagram tomorrow.
  8. bmblank

    bmblank Minister of Fire

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    I gotta say, Tarm biomass has all sorts of schematics free to peruse. www.woodboilers.com
    Mine is set up with unpressurized storage and a fossil fuel backup. I think the schematic was labeled stss1 out something. Either way, they have just about every configuration of boiler/storage/backup that you could think of.
  9. hiker88

    hiker88 Burning Hunk

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    I'm going to try and say this without sounding like a shill, but I 2nd this suggestion.

    I kicked around a lot of ideas on how to do my setup. In the end, I went with the square tank setup from the above site. I must have called them about 30 times when I was doing the install and it drastically cut down on the troubleshooting issues. They didn't have to try and figure out what I was doing.
  10. OldStoneHouse

    OldStoneHouse Member

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    Thanks - I should have mentioned that the only part I was worried about was connecting the Tarm schematic to the existing boiler because of the way it's plumbed. Scott from Tarm and I corresponded this morning and I think we're all set now.
  11. bmblank

    bmblank Minister of Fire

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    Those guys at Tarm are amazing help. I would almost go to them with problems i had unrelated to boilers (like, relationships or something). But then I'd probably be overstepping some bounds.
    Chris Hoskin and mikefrommaine like this.
  12. hiker88

    hiker88 Burning Hunk

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    Once I felt like I was bugging them too much so I put a post on here with something I was trying to figure out. Someone at Tarm saw it, realized it was me, and then called me at home!
  13. flyingcow

    flyingcow Minister of Fire

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    Welcome to the Innova crowd. I've enjoyed mine.
  14. OldStoneHouse

    OldStoneHouse Member

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    Wow - I knew they were good but that's impressive! I'm looking forward to working with them, hopefully things will go well if I follow the diagram...
  15. I used one of the tarm diagrams (actually two one before storage and with) And everything just worked like it should the moment I fired it up.

    To save a little money I used 2 danfoss valves instead of the termovars they spec. And instead of the blt control I made a few modifications to a stss control box to make use of a swing type zone valve.
  16. flyingcow

    flyingcow Minister of Fire

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    mikes on to something.
  17. OldStoneHouse

    OldStoneHouse Member

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    Thanks Mike,

    I'm not convinved I need the diverter valve - I'm open to opinions on that. From what Tarm's documentation says, the diverter is neccessary to prevent a small zone from taking the boiler's capacity (and thus skipping the storage) and hitting high limit (I guess). My Honeywell AQ has zone sync so it's unlikely that would happen. I decided to go with the loading unit actually - with the Spring sale on it made sense I think.

    I too am going to make a control box, that's well within my capabilities I think. I'm not sure I need the zone valve though - I'll look at the layout again but I thought the circ having a check valve would stop ghost flow. Opinions?
  18. hiker88

    hiker88 Burning Hunk

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    Actually, the diverter valve sends water above 165 f back to your heating elements instead of returning the high temp water back to storeage and then to the boiler. It is installed on the return side of the boiler so I don't think the zone sync would help.

    Edit:

    Not that the zone sync wouldn't help. I'm just saying that the diverting valve is there for the return - the zone sync is there for supply.
  19. OldStoneHouse

    OldStoneHouse Member

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    Okay - I'm also not sure I'll ever hit 165 f because right now we'd be running far less than that (like 100f). On outdoor reset but the curve is set to max out at 135. I believe there are models available with different temps.

    After re-reading the manual I think we're talking about the same thing ("Tarm Biomass recommends the use of an additional Termovar valve model 6440AF (TV2) for most installations. Without TV2 it is possible that when a small zone is the only zone calling, a master bathroom zone for instance, all of the heat the boiler is producing is drawn to the small zone. The result is that a 100,000 – 175,000 Btu (30-50 kW) boiler is sending all of its output to 2,500 Btu (0.73 kW) load. The boiler could quickly reach operating temperature and shut off, which must be avoided. TV2 solves this problem. It operates much the same way that TV1 operates except that it is a divert- ing valve. Port 1 of TV2 receives water from the return manifold. Port 2 of TV2 is connected to the supply manifold. Port 3 of TV2 is connected to the return to the boiler and to the thermal storage system. When the TV2 senses water 165 oF (74 oC). and above, it shunts water from Port 1 to Port 2 (back to the supply manifold). Because water returning to the boiler from the return manifold is diminished, the remaining flow from the boiler is forced through the heating coils in the thermal storage system. The result is that both the zone and the thermal storage system receive hot water and the boiler may continue to burn with a demand equal to or greater than its output. The end result is that the heating load is always prioritized over the thermal storage system, but heat not used will be stored in the thermal storage system for later use".

    So, what do we think, do I need it?
  20. hiker88

    hiker88 Burning Hunk

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    I think I'll wait and see what others say. We're definately talking about the same part. I have a "man cave" in the basement that is all it's own zone. It's about 15' X 17', and even with the HO baseboard I installed, the water on the return is not too much cooler than the water going in. Couple that with a boiler putting out 194f water as mine often is and tht is where it is nice to have it.
  21. My setup uses circulators for zoning. I also have the wood boiler in one room, the oil boiler in another with the primary loop and storage on the opposite end of the house. I couldn't use a loading valve because I needed to move 20gpm at 9.8' of head. To make sure water went to storage and not be pushed through one of the house zone circulators I used a swing type zone valve (ZV1) so that all of the water goes to storage when there is no call for heat. But if you are using zone valves for your heating loops you wouldn't need another zone valve.

    I believe the blt is designed to control a spring type zone valve. I used the outputs normally for the zone valve to control an omron 'ice cube' relay which works as the on/off switch for the zone valve.

    The second danfoss works to recycle the water through the house zones until it has cooled to below 140 -- I have found the 140 thermostat works well for me. Even though tarm specs a higher temp element.

    If you want a wiring diagram let me know.
  22. bmblank

    bmblank Minister of Fire

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    I agree. I can see where the radiant heat controller may only be putting 100 degrees into the floor, but the supply is far more than that. Tv2 I'd just giving that extra heat somewhere to go.
  23. OldStoneHouse

    OldStoneHouse Member

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    I'm actually running cast iron rads, they were just sized to run at 140 so that the gas boiler would stay condense as much as possible. So they can certainly run hotter, we've just never had to do that.

    So Mike, it sounds like if I got a 140 degree diverter that would work. Should I try it without one to see if I need it?
  24. I had actually ordered the higher temp element. But it hadn't been delivered when I made the plumbing changes to add storage. So I used the 140 that the danfoss came with. It keeps the water recirculating in the house loops longer -- until the temps have dropped below 140. My house stays warm, so I figured why change it out? The lower temps returning to storage help with stratification.

    In practice, the danfoss (tv2) keeps the water in the primary loop right around 140. When a new zone kicks on the cold water in the zone cools the danfoss down quicky and the water temps will go up 160 and then slowly drop back to 140. If its really cold and 4-5 zones are calling the danfoss opens up a bit and the primary loop temp will rise slightly.
  25. OldStoneHouse

    OldStoneHouse Member

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    Mike, would you mind sharing the model number of the Danfoss so I'm sure I'm looking at the right part? Thanks.

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