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A Sustainable Economy? Ideas on how to get there.

Post in 'The Green Room' started by Frozen Canuck, Sep 8, 2013.

  1. Frozen Canuck

    Frozen Canuck Minister of Fire

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    I have listened to this particular talk a few times & thought I would share it here & see what it generates in terms of discussion. Maybe like the economist says, all we really need is triple digit oil prices & the rest will work itself out.

    Hope the link works, if not you can listen here: www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2013/03/13/the-end-of-growth/

    Yep, link wont allow an extension, sorry you will have to copy to your browser. ETA tried it & link works.

    Fair warning 54 mins long so maybe while your working in the house & can crank up the volume.
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013

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  2. dougstove

    dougstove Member

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    I have read (forget where) that our current period is a sort of end-of-childhood examination period for humanity.
    -Will we get through the ~2050 population peak before ecosystem collapse?
    -Will we learn to manage income distribution in a stable economy, rather than relying on continual rapid growth?

    If we pass, we could head into a golden age.
    If we fail our test, things will be dismal.
    The current per capita GDP of the world is already ~$10,000, which for a family of 4 is $40,000.
    If we did things right, that is not bad.

    What worries me is our short attention span. We are bad at paying attention to routine improvements, and we are bad at distinguishing the important (energy policy) from the trivial (Miley Cyrus).
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
  3. btuser

    btuser Minister of Fire

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    10k per person would mean USA GDP is to be cut by 75%.
  4. Seasoned Oak

    Seasoned Oak Minister of Fire

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    Our whole economy is "underwater" IMO, unsustainable,even for the midterm let alone the long term. Probably healthcare is at the top of the list of unsustainables followed by defense,interest on the debt and retirement promises,not necessarily in that order,pick your poison. Triple digit oil prices would only collapse the house of cards more quickly.
  5. btuser

    btuser Minister of Fire

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    We already have tripe digit oil. The debt is a tally of defense spending for protection that we provide. Japan, Europe, and until recently China are depending on us to keep the spice flowing. Their currency reserves are our debt that we used to pay for our military.

    The petrodollar's days are numbered for sure. However the tech for renewables is still not competitive. We've got a few more years of empire left.
  6. Seasoned Oak

    Seasoned Oak Minister of Fire

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    The debt includes much more than defense spending. 1.3 trillion just for the bush tax cuts alone. Add in all the other govt spending that is underfunded,they are now borrowing(started this year) to pay current SS recipients.Cashing in all those SS IOUs. Still paying for 2 previous wars. Its a whole package of unsustainability. IT will be interesting to see who gets a cut of the ever shrinking pie. I guess whoever has the most lobbiest,s and the deepest pockets. The nations wealth has largely already been transfered to the 1%.
    firebroad likes this.
  7. Where2

    Where2 Member

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    While everything continues to sort itself out, I will continue life with a pair of 40+mpg vehicles in my driveway, and a grid-tied 4.4kW PV system on my roof. (generated 20.3kWh today)

    I'm continually baffled by people who work hard for what $$ they make, only to choose to give large chunks of their hard earned personal wealth away on frivolous stuff.
    PapaDave and Seasoned Oak like this.
  8. Adios Pantalones

    Adios Pantalones Minister of Fire

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    The economy currently requires additional generations to be larger, and to feed money to those already retired.

    We used to call that a pyramid scheme.

    As an advocate for population stabilization and reduction, it gives me heartburn
    Seasoned Oak and firebroad like this.
  9. firebroad

    firebroad Minister of Fire

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    We cannot sustain ourselves if we continue to be a nation of consumers. Just try to ask people to do without. I am as guilty as others, I have come to depend on the creature comforts; however, I suppose I feel as though I have earned them after a lifetime of hard work and sacrifice.
    Like AP said, we cannot sustain our current momentum in population for long.
  10. Grisu

    Grisu Minister of Fire

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    I think that economist underestimates what a sustainable economy really means. To become truly sustainable we need to:

    - not use any non-renewable resource (non-renewable on a timescale relevant to humankind like 100,000 or maybe 1,000,000 years)
    - have zero waste that cannot be reused or returned to the biosphere to be used there (without accumulation like carbon dioxide)
    - to not use any resource beyond its regenerative limit; e. g. no draw-down of already preexisting stocks (like catching more fish than grows up per year)
    - use only renewable energy sources like sun (and its derivatives), geothermal, gravitation (e. g. tide), nuclear fusion (if we ever figure it out) and maybe nuclear fission (depends how long we have fissionable material).

    Judging from those, we are far, far beyond a sustainable economy. Ask yourself when you drop something in your garbage can how sustainable that is.
  11. Delta-T

    Delta-T Minister of Fire

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    No worries friends...just choose your faction now...Morlocks or Eloi? Just a 'heads up', for those who desire to join my team (the Morlocks of course)...invest in BBQ sauce.... by the case load.
    jharkin, begreen and Adios Pantalones like this.
  12. firebroad

    firebroad Minister of Fire

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    :eek: Yoikes!
  13. Jags

    Jags Moderate Moderator Staff Member

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    Hoisin sauce will also mask gamey flavors.;)
    Delta-T likes this.
  14. dougstove

    dougstove Member

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    But what fraction of current USA GDP is counting expenditures of borrowed money on current consumption?
  15. Grisu

    Grisu Minister of Fire

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    All money is borrowed money; the question is only by whom and when. >>
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2013
  16. fossil

    fossil Accidental Moderator Staff Member

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    Mara, come quick, we have to run away from Delta-T. NOW, HURRY, Mara, HURRY!!!
    Adios Pantalones likes this.
  17. Adios Pantalones

    Adios Pantalones Minister of Fire

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    I dunno. Yvette Mimieux, and more or less pissa fruit for a good run of say 25 years...

    Delta can bite me

    image.jpg
    Frozen Canuck likes this.
  18. fossil

    fossil Accidental Moderator Staff Member

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    Whoa, and here all along, I thought Delta-T had four fingers on each hand. _g
  19. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    That's not delta, no mankini.
    Jags and Delta-T like this.
  20. Delta-T

    Delta-T Minister of Fire

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    the likeness is staggering, but its all about the details.
  21. Seasoned Oak

    Seasoned Oak Minister of Fire

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    Boy did this thread veer off course ,where are the Mods?
  22. Jags

    Jags Moderate Moderator Staff Member

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    There are already 3 here, how many more do you want?;lol

    (A course correction is easy - simply post something that applies to the subject matter.;))
  23. Seasoned Oak

    Seasoned Oak Minister of Fire

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    Thats OK pictures of "hot"woman should be included in every thread, new rules! ;lol;lol
  24. Jags

    Jags Moderate Moderator Staff Member

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    In the honor of course correction:
    Sustainability is a constantly changing target. I remember when 100 bushel per acre corn was a big deal. Now 200+ is expected. Changes like this move the target. Now how many people can we feed?? (just one example).
  25. Seasoned Oak

    Seasoned Oak Minister of Fire

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    We can now grow food with LED lights in hydro tanks with fish underneath. Dont even need sunlight. Some old buildings use indoor compost for heat in winter as well. A nice repurpose use of old abandoned buildings. Might work well in detroit.

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