Advice for small Cabin....don't want to oversize.

[dublin]

Hiya Folks,
Been lurking for a few months reading as much as I can.

I have a small cabin in northern NM at 8700' elevation in the mountains. During the winters, weather can vary greatly between mild (15-20F at night) to very cold (hits -50F at least once a year). Now, this is a vacation/short stay place. Perhaps someday we'll move up there but for now, it's just a great place to visit. Approx. square footage is 1k SF (going to try to attach a drawing but in the case that I can't, I'll try to describe). It's a two story. The ground floor has an open living room area and the current contractor zero clearance fireplace is located against an exterior wall. Total SF for the ground floor is approx. 600SF. There is an open stairway up to the loft which overlooks the ground floor living area. Upstairs SF is approx. 400sf. Ceilings on the ground floor for the areas other than the living area are at 8'. The height of the ceiling in the living area is around 20'. As I mentioned, we currently have a contractor grade fireplace installed. It works ok but takes several hours to actually warm the place up. I should mention that I have two other forms of heat in the house....a propane forced air furnace (high efficiency) and electric baseboards (dunno if they actually work....never turned them on!). While not there, I leave the thermostat at 45f just to keep some heat in the house/plumbing. When we visit, we typically have a fire going augmented by the furnace. So in a very real sense, the fire is mostly for aesthetic purposes. The house is a combination of construction types with the lower floor being log walls and the upper being stick framed. Insulation is adequate but certainly not great. I'm guessing the upper walls are ~R13 and the ceiling is probably around R30. I'm not in the space of ripping out all the T&G ceilings to upgrade the insulation at this point in time. It's generally air tight but the windows are cheap wood framed units that are starting to leak a little (I will be replacing these at some point in the future). I should mention that I'm not in the country at the moment but will be re-patriating next summer so can't get measurements/etc until I'm back stateside.

With all this in mind, we hate the surround that's up (looks very 70's) so I'm beginning to plan for ripping it out and rebuilding something a bit nicer. That got me thinking about replacing the insert that's in there. I would like something like the Napoleon NZ3000 (but not necessarily the price) and have found a number of cheaper alternatives such as offerings from Superior, BIS, etc.... All of these seem to be rated around 1500SF so would probably be fine for what we have here.

I do like the idea of using the fireplace to provide all the heat and those ZC offerings seem to offer a decent level of aesthetics I believe. What concerns me is this: We have a couch/sectional that sits about 8 feet in front of the fireplace so I'm concerned that the heat from one of these will just become unbearable. As well, given the loft area is open to the floor below, I'm concerned that the upstairs would be unusually hot when it's time for bed. I can open windows of course and maybe that's the solution for those nights when it's not particularly cold out. Anyway, the fireplaces referenced above are typically around 2cf in chamber size.

So I'd like to ask the collective whether these fireplaces would be best to fit our situation or should I be looking at something smaller? I haven't spent much time comparing cat and non-cat but just based on what little I have read, I'd probably be leaning towards a non-cat.

I realize going to a new fireplace will be pretty pricey with the unit itself and the SS chimney to be installed but I'm willing to go this route as long as we don't create a situation where it's uncomfortably warm in the place.

So just looking for any advice you may have to offer. If it boils down to just keeping the existing fireplace, I can live with that. If I can find a unit that won't sweat us out of the place, then I have no problems going this route either.

Thanks for putting up with my rambling thanking you in advance for any advice.

 

[Spletz]

Dublin, welcome to the forum. I'm relatively new at this myself. We recently bought an insert (cat). When we start getting too warm, we simply turn off the fan. The difference between fan on full and off is night and day. Many models have infinitely adjustable fan speeds as well.

As for the cat/no cat question, search a thead "cat vs. non-cat".

I'm sure you will get some further advice from the pros out there soon...

 

[dublin]

Dublin, welcome to the forum. I'm relatively new at this myself. We recently bought an insert (cat). When we start getting too warm, we simply turn off the fan. The difference between fan on full and off is night and day. Many models have infinitely adjustable fan speeds as well.

As for the cat/no cat question, search a thead "cat vs. non-cat".

I'm sure you will get some further advice from the pros out there soon...

Thanks Spletz. I've read a few threads on Cat vs. Non-Cat but I'm sure there's more to learn with regards to the differences. My initial reaction to a CAT style is that it's really for generating heat and not necessarily the "ambiance" that comes with a fire. I get this impression just from the idea that you can "turn" them way down so their pretty much just smoldering. I admit I may be way off base on this assumption.

With that being said, I sure don't mind expanding my possibilities so would you mind if I asked which insert you went with? Mine will need to be a zero clearance if that matters.
Cheers.

 

[Isaiah53]

I agree with the comment from Spletz about fan control. Many of the high efficiency ZC fireplaces have variable speed blowers so theoretically you can turn them down to the point that it should not put out any more heat than the radiant heat you are getting from your current unit. I would definitely make sure whatever unit you get has the ability to adjust the output of the air blower. I prefer variable speed over on/off for greater control. Having the variable speed also allows you to reduce the noise when the fan is running. My FPX 44 Elite (which has a large 4.3 ft3 firebox) comfortably heats the upper 1600 ft2 living area in my Colorado home and our temperatures are similar to yours. I rarely turn the blower down, but control the heat output with the amount of wood and air that I feed it. I often cycle the firing during warmer times during the day to keep from overheating the house. My area is larger, but the insulation and windows are likely better than your cabin. I think you can make one of these smaller high efficiency ZC's work if you like the looks of the NZ3000.

Normally inserts are installed into masonry fireplaces. I have seen a couple of threads on this site about installing an insert into a ZC fireplace. What I understand is that the ZC needs to be rated by the manufacturer for accepting an insert to maintain the rating, and this is not common. I am certainly not an expert on this, but I would at least explore that issue before I went down that path. The insert should certainly be cheaper.

 

[begreen]

One issue that is unique in your case is the altitude. You will need to have additional chimney height or an easy breathing EPA fireplace. For that reason I would suggest considering the Pacific Energy FP30 if the chimney is under 20ft. It's a bit oversized for 1000 sq ft, but the firebox is flexible and will work with partial loads when the weather is milder. (That may mean above zero in your location.)
http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/pacfp30.htm

If you do have 20+ ft of chimney then a BIS Traditions CE might work out well.

 

[Spletz]

Thanks Spletz. I've read a few threads on Cat vs. Non-Cat but I'm sure there's more to learn with regards to the differences. My initial reaction to a CAT style is that it's really for generating heat and not necessarily the "ambiance" that comes with a fire. I get this impression just from the idea that you can "turn" them way down so their pretty much just smoldering. I admit I may be way off base on this assumption.

With that being said, I sure don't mind expanding my possibilities so would you mind if I asked which insert you went with? Mine will need to be a zero clearance if that matters.
Cheers.

As per ambiance, the large viewing window is great on many models, cat or no cat. Yes, either way, an insert has less of the popping noises, just more efficient heat, more beautiful flames, less pollution, less smoke in your home, many more BTUs per log, cleaner hearth, less warm air sucked up the flue...need I go on?! So, yes, respectfully, you are off base on that assumption. And this is irrespective of cat/no cat.

Again, "turning down" the fire means to slow the O's (oxygen) and gain heat from it for longer periods ( while you sleep ). Cat or non-cat, same option/availability.

Mine is an FPX large flush insert. It is 3 cu ft. IMHO not too big for your scenerio, big enough when you need it, and you can dial it down/burn less when you don't.

There's many options out there. Keep doing your research, and you'll find what you need.

Understanding that you are not always/often at your cabin, some of these inserts mentioned maybe too expensive, but there's many options. Mine is in our main home for our sole heat supply (propane backup). We've used propane once or twice this season when no one was home to keep the home fire burning. Otherwise "free heat" if your labor of dropping trees, bucking them, splitting and stacking is without effort!

Begreen's concern of altitude should be heeded!!

 

[dublin]

Thanks folks for all your help.

Spletz, I was under the impression, wrongly it sounds, that on a cat unit, dialing it back pretty much puts the fire in a smoldering state where only the smoke is burning....that's where my comments with regards to the "ambiance" come from.....like I said, I've not researched Cat solutions much so appreciate the input.

As for the chimney height, if I remember correctly, I'm right at 22' but I'll have to get a measurement next summer when I move back just to be sure.

Begreen, the BIS traditions is right at the top of the list as are few other models of the same style. But I am curious, what makes the FP30 model require less chimney height? When looking at all the units, I don't really see a spec detailing how tall a chimney needs to be vs. altitude. So just curious. Would hate to find a unit that fits the bill only to learn (the hard way!) that my chimney isn't tall enough.

In any case, thank you all for the generous help.
Cheers.

 

[begreen]

Only a few mfg. take the time to document the increase in piping height needed for thin air (high altitude) installations. Some just say add more. VC has always documented this with a graph showing the increase needed for their stoves. This is for 6" pipe, but you will get the idea. With 22' of chimney you could be ok.

PE has a short, straight intake tube for the secondary air. My theory is that the lack of bends and the big, wide pipe allows the stove to work with less draft. PE says 12 ft chimney minimum where most will say 15-16' min needed. Anecdotally I have a close friend that put in a Summit with a horrible chimney arrangement. Only a 12 ft high chimney with 2 90 deg turns and a 45. This would thwart good draft with many stoves. Yet the Summit works pretty darn well for them. They use it as their sole source of heat.

 

[Isaiah53]

Wow. That chart would suggest he would need over 26 feet of chimney at least for a VC. I don't want to question Begreen's advice as he is certainly very knowledgeable and the more chimney the better, but my house near Estes Park is at 9000 ft elevation and I might have 15-16 ft of chimney from the top of my FPX. I have never had a draft issue with this set-up, even during light-off. I don't know -maybe the ZC's are different or its just my situation, but I would not get discouraged assuming you have to have that much chimney. I would think an experienced local dealer/installer would know how much chimney is needed in that area for the particular unit they represent or commonly work just based on experience. Hopefully it won't be their first. Can also ask for references as a check.

 

[begreen]

With 22' I've noted he should be ok. I was concerned that this might be more like a 10-12' chimney. Ya don't know until you ask.

 

[dublin]

I may look to add a foot or two. In it's current state, it draws like a demon when the fire is going but I have had on just a few occasions, when it doesn't draw when starting the fire. I have had to fan it for a few seconds to push the smoke into the chimney then voila, it draws well. Could be just a difference in temps causing that, I dunno.

In any case, I'm kind of at a standstill with my research. I have friends that are using the cabin while I'm overseas (Ireland...yeah, there are worse places to be!) and he sent me the dimensions of the cabin itself but forgot to measure up the space where the ZC would fit. He'll be back up there in a week or two for the holidays so I'll have them then.

Thanks for all the help folks!